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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

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"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

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We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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What's so bad about TJ?

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  • What's so bad about TJ?

    Why does everyone slam TJ Ford? He's not the best point guard in the world, but he's probably the second best player on the roster right now. I was just reading an NBA top 50 list from 2008 right after he was traded here and he was listed at #45, just one spot behind Granger. He hasn't lost a step at all, it's Jim O'Brien who is ruining him. He averaged 6, 7, 8 assists a game on a regular basis until he got here.

    I can understand the Troy Murphy hate, but why TJ? He was considered a borderline all-star talent when he came here and he definitely still is, but our coach doesn't know how to use him (or how the game of basketball is played.)

    Seriously, O'Brien, give this jack up the three crap up, where has it ever got you or anyone else? Does he think he's some kind of genius with his basketball "philosophy?" There's a reason nobody else follows your strategy...because it's retarded. Maybe if he had the up-tempo personnel for it, but for god's sake he was trying to go up-tempo when we had Jermaine O'Neal on the team. But let's not make this F O'Brien thread, it's just too easy.

    It's just so disappointing to see TJ going to waste because he's probably one of the most talented players we've had come through for awhile. He would have had 15/8 handed to him on a silver platter if he had a halfway normal coach. Do people really think he's that bad? Of all the players on the team he's the quickest, best at creating his own shot, and perhaps the most clutch. He's a great passer too he just doesn't get the proper opportunities to showcase it.

    He also had a great attitude even when he got dropped to THIRD STRING. I love AJ Price, but I think that was a tad harsh. You don't DNP CD your second best player. No way in hell is Earl Watson better...can barely even shoot above 40% and got waived by one of the worst teams in the league last year. TJ Ford has all-star potential...Earl Watson will never even be on the ballot.

    I'm just sick of everyone dumping on him. He's had a rough year, but that probably has a lot to do with the coach. Cut the guy some slack.
    Lifelong pacers fan

  • #2
    Re: What's so bad about TJ?

    In a different system I think people would appreciate him more. The fact that JOB plays him over Price is what irks most people. I really like TJ but would much rather see Price getting his time.

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    • #3
      Re: What's so bad about TJ?

      Nothing so wrong about him. Yes if used correctly he isn't bad. The worst thing about him is he drives into traffic and turns the ball over. Other than that he is pretty good. His defense this season has been good.

      But overall though if he is your starting point guard I think you are in trouble. if he accepts being a backup he could be one on a really good team

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: What's so bad about TJ?

        He can't shoot and is a one-on-one player, who fails to get his teamates involved in stretches. There are a lot of PG's guilty of this in the league, however, he's just in a system where chucking up threes is the norm (a terrible fit for him).

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What's so bad about TJ?

          Originally posted by pacers_heath View Post
          He's had a rough year
          Two years.

          He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

          It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
          This space for rent.

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          • #6
            Re: What's so bad about TJ?

            Originally posted by Anthem View Post
            Two years.

            He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

            It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
            third best? AJ Price isn't better than TJ. Not yet. Watson isn't really either...he's just a more conservative choice at starter. If you want to be stuck in mediocracy (at best) forever you go with Watson...if you want to take the chance to actually make something happen you go with Ford. The very fact that Jim O'Brien likes Watson over Ford makes me think I'm onto something.
            Last edited by pacers_heath; 03-01-2010, 05:42 PM.
            Lifelong pacers fan

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            • #7
              Re: What's so bad about TJ?

              I think TJ is an excellent defender. Where he is just pure awful is running the offense, when he drives to the hole, most of the time it results in an airball layup attempt or he jumps in the air and makes a bad pass.

              He also is the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen. Worse than Tinsley. He has shot at least 40 airball layups this year. Even a wide open layup is going to brick with him most of the time. What is weird is that he has an amazing mid range jumper. How can somoene be so bad at layups and so good at mid range jumpshots?

              I have always thought he would be a great scoring guard off the bench... like Jason Terry is used with the Mavs. You don't want him running your team, but if used properly he can be a great asset to a team.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                Originally posted by Anthem View Post
                Two years.

                He's a nice guy and I've got nothing against him, but right now he's the third best PG on the roster. Last year he was second best.

                It's not wrong to expect more than a backup PG that you're paying 8.5mil/year. And apparently no other team in the league is beating down our door trying to acquire his services.
                Exactly.

                I have said all along that he fits the Jason Terry role on this team, the PG off the bench that is more scorer than PG. When some of the less talented offensive bench guys are out there he helps you keep getting points on the board. When his scoring comes at the expense of better players, then you have an issue.

                This is why I think Price can start, much like Chalmers was able to start for Miami, or Blake in Portland. Your PG doesn't have to be the top guy on the team anymore than any other position must be. It's just that if he's not then he needs to be able to get the ball to those top dogs well, not lose the ball too often, and occasionally chip in a bucket.

                Almost none of TJ's game applies to that view, and he's not as good as someone like Wade or Roy that can justify dominating the ball so much.

                I LOVED using him in the Terry role behind Jack starting last year, and it worked well. Luckily for us they let Jack go before we saw too much of a good thing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                  Originally posted by pacers_heath View Post


                  He was considered a borderline all-star talent when he came here and he definitely still is

                  BY WHO!?!?

                  If he was that great, he'd have been traded by now. Since he's not been traded, I'd say that pretty much sums up Ford's true value, and that value isn't 8.5 mil. Who wants or needs a 8.5 mil b/u PG? NOT THE PACERS!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                    Originally posted by pacers_heath View Post
                    third best? AJ Price isn't better than TJ. Not yet. Watson isn't really either...he's just a more conservative choice at starter.
                    How are you defining "better?" What is it that makes TJ a good point guard?

                    I want a PG (and this collection of players needs a PG) to run the team. TJ can't do that.

                    Originally posted by heath
                    If you want to be stuck in mediocracy (at best) forever you go with Watson...if you want to take the chance to actually make something happen you go with Ford.
                    Quick... remind me what TJ's record is over the past two years?
                    This space for rent.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                      There are three things I see wrong with him that would still be making me crazy even if he was universally loved.

                      1) On offense, if he does not keep his head up, he simply doesn't see how to get out of a situation. This causes a turnover when he gets trapped on a dribble or tries to make a pass after a player has moved or a passing lane is jumped. He sometimes simply jumps into the air to see where he can put the ball. Even in a relatively good game on Saturday against the Bulls, he had 3 quick turnovers in the first quarter from this kind of stuff.

                      2) His passes are almost always low or off center. This prevents the person getting the ball from doing so in rhythm, which is one of the reasons we aren't seeing a lot of quick moves or shots after getting the ball from TJ.

                      3) His defense is OK if he doesn't get distracted by someone dribbling behind him. He turns to go "help" - I put that in quotes because it seems really to be more like turning to try to slap the ball away, he really isn't going to cut off a passing lane or a drive to the basket or a shot - and leaves his man open. His man gets the ball and has a wide open shot or passing lane. I've called this the TJ "pick-n-roll-without-a-pick".

                      Since he is the only one I see do this, I really don't think it is what JOB has told him to do. If you disregard the conspiracy theories and actually assume someone on the coaching staff is minimally competent, it could very well be one of the things that he got benched for.
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                        What's so bad about TJ? Tell me if this looks familiar:

                        Dribble inside to the paint....dribble dribble more.....realize that there are a forrest of Big Men surrounding him.....THEN he decides to pass and ( usually ) turn the ball over.

                        He's a quick PG that can dribble his way inside the paint....the problem is that he's a man without a plan when he gets there.

                        TJ isn't a bad PG.....he's just not a good fit for JO'Bs offense.
                        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                          TJ isn't a good point guard.

                          He makes bad decisions, dribbles too much, doesn't run the floor well, is turnover prone, and can't spread the floor. And doesn't have any of the intangibles needed to be a good point guard. And he's been thrown in a system where the coach wants him to do things he's not comfortable with (shooting threes) and things he's bad at (making decisions with the ball)

                          However, he is certainly capable of being an effective scorer off the bench. His free throw line jump shot is amazing. Possibly best in the league. He's quick and can get to the basket efficiently, and when he tries he can defend well.

                          Problem I think we all have, or most of us, is that the FO has made it clear that Ford isn't part of our future core, and Price is. Price is also a better point guard (maybe not a more talanted player..but better point guard) and should be playing, so fair or not, TJ gets scapegoated a bit for that. (really, I think with the Ford/Earl/Head lineup, we might want to question Head's minutes..or hell, there's enough minutes to play four guards)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                            Originally posted by Thingfish View Post
                            I think TJ is an excellent defender. Where he is just pure awful is running the offense, when he drives to the hole, most of the time it results in an airball layup attempt or he jumps in the air and makes a bad pass.

                            He also is the worst finisher around the rim I have ever seen. Worse than Tinsley. He has shot at least 40 airball layups this year. Even a wide open layup is going to brick with him most of the time. What is weird is that he has an amazing mid range jumper. How can somoene be so bad at layups and so good at mid range jumpshots?

                            I have always thought he would be a great scoring guard off the bench... like Jason Terry is used with the Mavs. You don't want him running your team, but if used properly he can be a great asset to a team.
                            Totall agree with this. However, he doesn't have the three like the Jet. If he could develop that-never has gotten close-he'd be a sure fire Microwave guard off the bench. D's been somewhat better this season than last, but I disagree with those who say he's a good defender. Mediocre at best.
                            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                            -Emiliano Zapata

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: What's so bad about TJ?

                              He sometimes makes poor decisions on going under screens on shooters. A big part of defense is scouting and being prepared on how to defend individuals. So he is mediocre there. But he gives good effort and has quick hands and quick feet.

                              Comment

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