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2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

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  • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    OK, here goes.

    I think that TJ Ford's natural abilities as a basketball player lend themselves to him being able to create shots for other players more easily than he can create/finish shots on his own. However, he's more interested in getting his own shot.

    Jack seems better at creating/finishing his own shot than he does at creating shots for others. However, it seems that he strives to play within O'Brien's team concepts both offensively and defensively.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

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    • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

      I think everyone needs to stop and breathe.

      Bird/Morway have made it clear they have not intensions of going over the luxury tax. So, if Torando has out-bidded them w/their offer to Jack, it's goodbye, Jarrett. I'm sure they knew it was unlikely he'd return. Signing Dahntay Jones was their insurance policy in case they were outbid.

      I think we've actually improved our backcourt by signing Jones on top of hearing Diener exercised his option to return. I thought it was somewhat strange that JOB didn't go w/TJ and Diener at the Point. Both know how to push the tempo. The only problem with both is they're defense leaves alot to be desired, but that's what Jones is for - to fill that defensive void at the Point. It will be a shame to lose Jack because I thought our PG-trio was working quite well together. But when you really look at things, losing Jack isn't all that Earth shattering considering Dahntay Jones brings more of a defensive mindset to his game which I believe was the primary reason Jack was brought in.

      So, worry not, Pacers fans. I think the team has been left in good hands...perhaps even better from a defensive standpoint.

      Comment


      • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

        Originally posted by NuffSaid View Post
        I think everyone needs to stop and breathe.

        Bird/Morway have made it clear they have not intensions of going over the luxury tax. So, if Torando has out-bidded them w/their offer to Jack, it's goodbye, Jarrett. I'm sure they knew it was unlikely he'd return. Signing Dahntay Jones was their insurance policy in case they were outbid.

        I think we've actually improved our backcourt by signing Jones on top of hearing Diener exercised his option to return. I thought it was somewhat strange that JOB didn't go w/TJ and Diener at the Point. Both know how to push the tempo. The only problem with both is they're defense leaves alot to be desired, but that's what Jones is for - to fill that defensive void at the Point. It will be a shame to lose Jack because I thought our PG-trio was working quite well together. But when you really look at things, losing Jack isn't all that Earth shattering considering Dahntay Jones brings more of a defensive mindset to his game which I believe was the primary reason Jack was brought in.

        So, worry not, Pacers fans. I think the team has been left in good hands...perhaps even better from a defensive standpoint.
        I think that AJ was drafted as insurance for Jack leaving....whereas Jones was brought in to fill the role that Marquis, Graham and Dunleavy ( due to his injury/recovery ) vacated. Defensively, Jones will help out.....but assuming that we sign AJ....I'm thinking that we'll still sign some Vet PG to help fill out our PG needs.
        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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        • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

          Originally posted by CableKC View Post
          I think that AJ was drafted as insurance for Jack leaving....whereas Jones was brought in to fill the role that Marquis, Graham and Dunleavy ( due to his injury/recovery ) vacated. Defensively, Jones will help out.....but assuming that we sign AJ....I'm thinking that we'll still sign some Vet PG to help fill out our PG needs.
          Hence, the Anthony Carter phone call? Someome mentioned Flip Murray, who I'm not a big fan of, but he'd fill multiple needs and was a nice scorer in ATL last year.

          Comment


          • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

            Originally posted by mellifluous View Post
            OK, here goes.

            I think that TJ Ford's natural abilities as a basketball player lend themselves to him being able to create shots for other players more easily than he can create/finish shots on his own. However, he's more interested in getting his own shot.

            Jack seems better at creating/finishing his own shot than he does at creating shots for others. However, it seems that he strives to play within O'Brien's team concepts both offensively and defensively.
            I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

            All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
            Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
            Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
            Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
            Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
            And life itself, rushing over me
            Life itself, the wind in black elms,
            Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

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            • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

              I spoke with Gnome yesterday and told him my opinion on all this is that it's as simple as FACE VALUE.

              1) They would like to keep Jack, and prefer him as a starting PG with TJ off the bench for scoring

              2) TJ is an expensive 6th man and might not want to keep that role, which is how he got to Indy in the first place

              3) The Pacers looked to trade TJ leading into the draft but found no deals that made sense for them, and given their situation they can only afford to make boring, sensible choices

              4) The realize that Jack is likely to get priced out of their range so they draft Price, perhaps not giving up on a TJ trade till during the draft even


              It's neither a master plan or some ultimate failing. The multi-man job of running the team left them with a lot of things to adjust under Bird's solo tenure. I don't think it means that they wanted to rent Jack, but it does mean they can't afford luxuries right now.

              I don't think they "wanted" to trade TJ, I think they probably just wanted to adjust that salary usage to another position, maybe reduce it too, and wanted to avoid a battle over player's roles.


              "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson

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              • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                Originally posted by Speed View Post
                Hence, the Anthony Carter phone call? Someome mentioned Flip Murray, who I'm not a big fan of, but he'd fill multiple needs and was a nice scorer in ATL last year.
                Just like the apparent interest in Kleiza....IMHO, I think that contacting Anthony Carter was more of a "smokescreen" to the Nuggets to shield who the Pacers were reallly interested in.......Inferno.

                As for Flip.....I'd pass on him. He's as dominant of a ball-handler as Ford is. Once it's Flip's hands.....it's pretty much a sure bet that he'll shoot the ball.
                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                  Originally posted by ChicagoJ View Post
                  I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

                  All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
                  Unfortunately I agree, though I get Melli's point and the idea of it. TJ's strength is driving for pull up jumpers and when he's hot he can rack up some points for you. Thus my Jason Terry comparison and why I think he works well as the 6th man. But as a set-up plays passing PG I just don't see the fundamentals of that game at all, not just an issue of willingness.

                  Losing Jack will hurt, but I think some people had their expectations up a bit too high this year. My target is next June, that's when I'll shift into "okay, now let's get this going again". This year like the last 2 is just preparation and getting things in order for the real changes to come.

                  Slow and steady to me seems to be a good plan, and as much as I liked what Jack became and would welcome him back, he's not a critical piece of the future build.

                  As for Flip.....I'd pass on him. He's as dominant of a ball-handler as Ford is. Once it's Flip's hands.....it's pretty much a sure bet that he'll shoot the ball.
                  Completely agree, we already have TJ here, we don't need 2 of them.

                  The team has their "play runner" with Price. Use him to feed Roy and work the two man game. They were brilliant together in the summer. I think Rush will also work well with them based on the teamwork of he, Chalmers and Arthur at KS.
                  Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-13-2009, 01:01 PM.

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                  • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                    Originally posted by ChicagoJ View Post
                    I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

                    All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
                    Yes, he could never do this in the past, especially not in Toronto /green

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                      Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                      I spoke with Gnome yesterday and told him my opinion on all this is that it's as simple as FACE VALUE.

                      1) They would like to keep Jack, and prefer him as a starting PG with TJ off the bench for scoring

                      2) TJ is an expensive 6th man and might not want to keep that role, which is how he got to Indy in the first place

                      3) The Pacers looked to trade TJ leading into the draft but found no deals that made sense for them, and given their situation they can only afford to make boring, sensible choices

                      4) The realize that Jack is likely to get priced out of their range so they draft Price, perhaps not giving up on a TJ trade till during the draft even


                      It's neither a master plan or some ultimate failing. The multi-man job of running the team left them with a lot of things to adjust under Bird's solo tenure. I don't think it means that they wanted to rent Jack, but it does mean they can't afford luxuries right now.

                      I don't think they "wanted" to trade TJ, I think they probably just wanted to adjust that salary usage to another position, maybe reduce it too, and wanted to avoid a battle over player's roles.

                      "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson
                      I couldn't have said it better . What you detailed is EXACTLY what I think that TPTB were planning to do once they shifted Jack to the Starting PG spot and the season ended........but S*** happens and ( unfortunately ) it looks like we're not going to pull out a winning hand when we see the "River card" when it comes to Jack.

                      Although I am all for matching Jack's offer and then do our best to move either Ford or Foster for a straight Salary dump anytime before the 2009-2010 Trade deadline.....I wouldn't be surprised if we took the "safe route" ( unfortunately ) and simply not match the Raptor's offer and simply "stand pat" for the next 2 seasons.

                      Unfortunately if we end up "standing pat", as Hicks suggested in his "therapy session post", welcome to the "Mediocrity in the land of the Pacers" for the next 2 seasons....population "us". I may hate "standing pat", but I understand why TPTB would choose to do so.
                      Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                      Comment


                      • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                        Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                        Completely agree, we already have TJ here, we don't need 2 of them.
                        Yeah...no kidding. All I remember of Flips game was that he would get the ball....dribble dribble dribble.....then he would either shoot the ball or he would do some fancy Harlem Globe-trotter dribbling behind his back and ( more then likely ) turn the ball over..

                        Flip wasn't a bad "stop gap" solution...but I didn't particularly like his game.

                        Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                        I think Rush will also work well with them based on the teamwork of he, Chalmers and Arthur at KS.
                        Are you referring to Price? Didn't he play for UConn?
                        Last edited by CableKC; 07-13-2009, 01:20 PM.
                        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                          Mediocre, but a chance to develop young talent in Roy, Brush, TH, McBob, Price. I can live with that, when you had been treading water and had no development of anyone.

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                          • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                            Originally posted by Speed View Post
                            Mediocre, but a chance to develop young talent in Roy, Brush, TH, McBob, Price. I can live with that, when you had been treading water and had no development of anyone.
                            I know.......I know that this is the likely reality of the situation we are in....I just don't look forward to 2 more years of another Playoff-bubble push where we end up with the 13th or 14th pick again.

                            But as you suggested, the only real silver lining that comes out of all of this where we hopefully do not add any more players to take minutes away from our likely future core of BRush/Granger/TH/Granger/Jones and ( hopefully ) AJ/McRoberts. I admit that the only real joy that I had last season was seeing Granger/BRush/Hibbert develop together and build some chemistry....seeing that primary core expand to include Jones and possibly AJ and McRoberts does picque my interest as a "hardcore" fan. I don't think it would excite the common fan....but at least there's something for us to enjoy.
                            Last edited by CableKC; 07-13-2009, 01:19 PM.
                            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                            • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                              Originally posted by Cable
                              "I understand that we want to keep him, but why the rush to extend him when he wasn't doing asking for one before it's time ( a la SJax )"
                              Agreed Cable, but then we know they did rush that Jack trade and I think for the same basic reasons - PR. With Foster I don't really think it would have altered their view on the situation, meaning I think they'd still pay Foster right now over Jack, as others have also suggested.

                              Comment


                              • Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

                                Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                                Yeah...no kidding. All I remember of Flips game was that he would get the ball....dribble dribble dribble.....then he would either shoot the ball or he would do some fancy Harlem Globe-trotter dribbling behind his back and ( more then likely ) turn the ball over..

                                Flip wasn't a bad "stop gap" solution...but I didn't particularly like his game.


                                Are you referring to Price? Didn't he play for UConn?
                                No, Rush. Saying we saw Price and Hibbert look brilliant together in the summer, and I mean really impressive PnR and post feeds. As Gnome and I discussed, with Roy and AJ you see a big that is willing to quickly repost and a PG that understands this and what you gain from it. AJ IMO is the type of PG that wants you to repost and adjusts his spacing to help accomodate it.

                                So I was saying that we didn't get to see Rush working his game with Price/Roy much since he only played game 1, though in that game he ran off a lot of screens for catch and shoots.

                                But without the proof of seeing their 3 man game rolling I just think that it would work because I've seen Rush work a 3 man game previously with 2 similar players in Chalmers and Arthur, two players with a lot of similarites to Price and Roy. Arthur's strength is low post offense and wants to work from there and Chalmers is very similar to Price in that he mostly is looking to space correctly and run the play.

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