The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

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Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

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20 games into the 22/23 season, what do we believe or not believe

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  • 20 games into the 22/23 season, what do we believe or not believe

    Normally we gather together at the 20 game mark and share our initial thoughts on the season, where we stand, what we think and ultimately where do we believe it will lead to. We are going to do that again here but this time I'm going to do my part slightly different than in the past. I'm not going to give a player by player break down but instead I'm going to focus on whether or not I believe they are who we think they are and frankly do I believe in the team overall as the season progresses.

    I will say this before I start the official portion of our program, this team is just so much more fun to watch than anything they have trotted out in nearly a decade and it's not even close. I like this team, I like these players, hell I even like this coach. So however the season ends I at least am having so much more fun watching than I have since we last played in the E.C. finals.

    Now to our program. I may or may not review every player or coach or management/ownership, but what you will have to imagine is this. A fat old man sitting at a keyboard typing this with an angel (we'll call him Bobby Mac) on one shoulder and a devil (we'll call him Vnzla81) sitting on the other yelling things into my ears and on occasion throwing baby back ribs at each other from Squeelers.

    Let's just get this out of the way right up front. Why avoid it or hide it we all know that ultimately no matter what else is said a lot of this topic is going to depend on Myles (lord and savior from my right ear & softner from my left) Turner.

    What we know: Well, frankly he is having a career year. He's scoring more, grabbing more rebounds and still blocking shots at a very high clip. (My left ear just yelled at me about using the word Clip so close after the Clippers debacle)

    What we believe: This is tough and for this one we are just going to have to let the angel and the devil have their say, they flipped a coin and the angel came out on top so he goes first.

    This is the Myles Turner that we always knew was there. It takes NBA bigs typically more time to fully develop than almost any other position and Myles just took time to develop the lower body strength to be able to hold his ground. He was always a great defender and now that he is at least grabbing a reasonable amount of rebounds he can no longer be considered just a shot blocker. Once he was moved to the sole position of the 5 spot his offense has shifted, you see a lot more pick and rolls and a lot less pick and pops. He's now returning to his early post turn around game that he abandoned when Nate McMillan came here. Overall the growth you are seeing is just the simple results of hard work, a traditional role and for the first time ever in his career playing with a God level point guard. Yes he is playing for a contract but this is what he is capable of and the Pacers just need to be prepared to fork out the money.

    Now the devil get's his turn.

    Of course he putting his entire being on the line because this is his one big chance at a pay day. If he played even close to what he has for the past few seasons he would be looking at nearly a mid level exception with probably not more than 2-3 years guaranteed. Yes he's played better this season, how much of that is due to playing with Haliburton we can't say for sure, but once again when faced with real centers who actually play like centers he looks like clown shoes. Jokic scored 24 points in 20 minutes on him (Angel yells out that Myles outrebounded him BY A LOT) and Gobert abused him most of the night (angel yells out again that Myles outscored him) and don't even get me started on how he made Ivaca Zubac look like Shaquille O'Neal from around 2000. The Pacers are going to be suckered once again into giving this clown a bloated contract, a lifetime guaranteed starting spot no matter if he deserves it or not and I'm going to make all of your lives miserable for the next 5-7 years while I steadfastly speak the truth about softner.

    After hearing all of that rattle around in my head I don't know where I land. The honest truth is simple. If this was the Myles Turner we had gotten consistently over the past few years I never EVER would have been as opposed to him as I was. This Myles Turner is actually good and here is the real kicker, if this was the real Myles Turner I would be the first to say who are you going to trade him for that is going to bring back what you lose in trading him? But that's the kickers isn't it. This isn't the first time Myles has put together a string of games that has made you think he had turned a corner, hell I've often wondered if we shouldn't just have paid Al Jefferson to sit on the bench and call him soft as that for some reason seemed to motivate him. But if there is any one thing that has given me more hope than anything this year it was Myles play in a loss and frankly there was not highlight or even statistic that I can point to to tell you why other than what I saw. It was against Denver and it was a time that Jokic was attempting to dribble down into the post and get off a shot. Myles did not attempt to block the shot, which is frankly odd coming from him, but instead he put his chest fully in the way of Jokic trying to penetrate and he did not budge. Let me say that again, he did not get moved by Jokic on the dribble. He ended up taking a fade away shot. This was enormous growth on Myles part and this was real defense, not just trying to swat away the shot. All I know is that the Pacers as a team botched the Turner thing massively because there is a very real possibility that he will walk at the end of the year and we get nothing or we could overpay and just have a repeat. I honestly don't see almost any possible way the team trades him even at the deadline if we are still competing for homecourt in the playoffs.

    Moving onto Haliburton.

    For this one both the devil and the angel decided to share a plate of pulled pork because they both believe that as far as pure point guards go, as in point guards who point, he simply is the best. I believe I saw the angel slip some extra hot sauce on the devils pork.

    As for me, I'm way to overhyped at the moment to be rational so here is my non rational thought. He is already the best point guard the Indiana Pacers have ever had and I truly believe if he stays here for his career we will say the names Reggie Miller and Tyrese Haliburton in unison and well to be frank if we somehow win a title with Tyrese? Look it depends on what you want out of your point guard. If your looking for a dynamic scorer then yea Ja Morant & Steph Curry are better. But if you want someone to lead your team offense, be able to score himself and be not a sieve on defense then I'm not sure we don't have the best point guard in the NBA. My estimation of him only went higher in watching that Agnes video of him talking to the team in the locker room after the game. That was a leader. That was OUR leader. Here is the kicker, he's still only 22. Think about his skill level at 27. I loved Sabonis, he was by far my favorite Pacer of the past few seasons, but if they came back today and wanted to redo that trade I'd hang up so fast it wouldn't be funny. I wouldn't do that trade again even if they added an unprotected first round pick. Not because Sabonis is not that good, but it is because Haliburton legitimately will now own the name point God.

    The devil has stated he wants to talk about Buddy Hield so we will let him go first.

    What we know: Buddy has been a steady vet who has been so far mostly consistent with his spot up shooting, overall willingness to play a more rounded game and has been a veteran leader for the club.

    The devil believes that this is exactly the reason why this team is pyrite. He is playing good, everything that we know he believes to be true and is exactly the reason the team should have already moved him for a valuable future asset that will be ready to win when the rest of the team will be ready to win. Buddy will be 30 in a few weeks and needs to be on a team where he can win now and help a true contender to a title all he is doing here is costing us valuable losses and our ability to be bad for the French Lad.

    The angel quickly jumps in and says why do we have to worry about a potential crap shoot going forward when we may have the winning formula right now? Isn't an active, healthy motivated Buddy Hield better than some potential future draft pick that may or may not be in the top 10? Isn't Buddy giving you everything you want from a veteran leader and not just in a James Johnson way? The Devil shoots back that yes and that is the problem.

    What I think: It all comes down to what you believe. Is this team real? Or is this the result of a weak schedule playing some teams that have been missing their players or they have had players just come back from injury. I do know that once Duarte comes back eventually I want to see a lot more of him but I'm not sure how that will go. Buddy has been struggling a little over the past couple of weeks but it may be because he is being asked to do to much.

    Moving onto Jalen Smith:

    What we know: It has been a roller coaster ride with Jalen. One game his is up the next game he is down. Career wise he's above where he was in Phoenix but below where he was last season with us.

    The angel say's that he is working on his game, yes there have been inconsistency's but like all young bigs he has to grow into his body and he trusts Carlisle to do what is right to let Jalen develop into the starting big man we will need going forward.

    The devil say's that when he looks into Jalen Smiths eyes he sees the reflection of Myles Turner and it frightens him. He feels that he is soft, likes to shoot from the outside to much and makes some of the dumbest passes we have had on this team since Sam Young. But even with all of the negatives he still like him better than softner.

    What I think: Honestly one of the overlooked things in last nights game was when Carlisle went with Smith as the lone center and he came up with a huge block in the 4th quarter that stopped what would have been an easy layup. He does things like that. However he just does things in batches and not with a ton of consistency. He seems focused and it's not like he's not trying but for whatever reason he just can't put it all together for a full game. One thing that is rough about him is that when he starts off hot it's hard to watch Rick do consistency with him because typically when he comes back he is flat, it's almost you have to ride him till he peters out in these cases. But that's not good either so it's a tough call to make. I want to like him, I really do. But going forward I'm not sure he is the long term answer. It does seem like we are trying to use him exclusively at 4 and I'm not sure he isn't also a pretty good backup 5.

    Moving onto Benn Mathurin:

    What we know: Said that LeBron James had to prove himself to him. He didn't, so score one for big Benn

    The angel keeps whispering in my ear about Roger Brown and how they are so much alike because Roger was a master around the rim and could pull up and stick you with a dagger just like Benn. The angel loves Benn btw and feels this is both a potential R.O.Y. and 6th man of the year award winner.

    The devil is loudly barking in my other ear about Dwayne Wade and how he draws fouls just like the flash and is already a better 3 point shooter than he was at that age. BTW he loves Benn as well and feels that the R.O.Y. is in the bag and is considering adopting him.

    What I think: Much like the genie in Aladdin we ain't ever had a player like him. He has a lot of room to grow, he needs to learn to do a lot of different things. But simply put, like Private Pyle in full metal jacket he is a killer. We've had irrationally over confident players before but we've never really had one that can and would back it up. Ball handling, thankfully, is a skill that can be developed with time so his will come. If there is any one thing I sort of worry about with him is he seems to not really be a high flyer like I thought he was. In fact there are times he seems to have a hard time clearing the rim so we don't get the throw downs we might like, but like Adrian Dantley once said, whether it's a layup or a dunk it's still two points.

    Moving onto Isaiah Jackson:

    What we know: playing at about the same level as last season statistically. A point less and same for blocks and boards

    The angel tells me that once again he is a very young big and is still 20 himself. He will grow into his body and he has defensive instincts that we haven't had on the club since Paul George. He will develop a consistent shot in time and all will be well with him and he will be a great backup to Myles.

    The devil literally spits fire and say's that is what scares him, he will be backing up softner for years. He hasn't shown nearly enough improvement and the fact that he played a whole whopping 3:37 in last nights game vs the Lakers is all you need to know about him. He's weak, and doesn't grab rebounds nearly well enough to matter. All that being said he still prefers him to Turner.

    What I think: I believe, once again stealing from Aladdin here, he is a diamond in the rough. I truly believe that when he is in his mid to late 20's he has DPOY candidate written over him because I believe he can guard every front court position but can easily switch to any backcourt player for a time or two. But it all depends on him, he has to work on his shooting and his fouling.

    Moving onto TJ McConnel:

    What we know: He is here for his leadership both on and off the floor and his work ethic. He is what he is and at 30 that's not going to change, other than on occasion he might stick a 3 point shot which makes us all faint dead away when he hits one.

    The angel love T.J. McConnell as though he where his own son. He loves the hustle, he loves the fire, he loves the passion, he love the defense, he loves the passing and he accepts his shooting limitations. The angel knows the score here, we kept T.J. around to be a good influence and a positive role mode.

    The devil surprisingly doesn't hate McConnell. He likes his feistiness (big ups to Jeff Foster), he likes that he will take out someone on the way to diving for a loose ball.

    What I think: Ironically the angel, the devil and I (sounds like a country song) all agree on this one. He is what he is, he is here to teach the young guys how to be a pro, be ready for every game and show them how to make an impact when they get their chance to play.

    Moving on to Aaron Nesmith:

    What we know: He's actually putting up career numbers which really is more sad than anything else. He's been a solid dependable defender for the most part so i know why Rick likes to play him but my God can he sometimes not hit water from a boat.

    The angel like him. Wants to see him work on his shot but overall really like him. Feels that he could easily be that 3 & D guy we've looked for. He wants to remind us all about his late game rebound and foul shot to seal a win.

    The devil would like to add him to the package with Turner and Hield. Defense is grand but in this league you have to score and this guy just cannot do it consistently enough to justify playing him with Duarte comes back.

    What I think: This is tough because I see him and watch how he defends at times and he is an irritant to whoever he is guarding. He is almost the perfect NBA size, he could be about an inch or two taller but he is physical for a short as he is. Isn't a bad rebounder, which on our team is always a plus. I like him better as a starter because when they were using him and McConnell with Mathurin in the second unit it put way to much pressure on Benn to score everything. It will be interesting to see what the team does does do with minutes once Chris does return

    Let's take a break and bring on some dancing fruit

    Moving on to Andrew Nembhard:

    What we know: Holy crap was nobody really expecting this. Raise your hand if you thought he would be looking good as a Mad Ant right now? I know I did.

    The angel keeps telling us all that we need to have faith, the team knows how to pick them and there was never a doubt in his mind that he would be a player (the devil start levitating and chanting the name Leaf over and over). He feels he is a perfect pick up for our squad and will backup Haliburton for a few years. He loves his defense and his guts.

    The devil reminds us all that we are all celebrating a backup and we would be better off with a younger player and that Nembhard is actually older than Haliburton.

    What I think: I had no idea who this guy was and therefore had my usual rolling eyes look whenever the team started talking about a second round pick. Um, well I guess this is one case where I will be dead wrong. Forget that last second shot, he hit three other three's before that and actually guarded LeBron effing James, as a rookie. I don't know where his limit is but right now I'd say he is at the very least going to have a decent career as a solid backup. Hell maybe even a starter.

    Moving on to Oshae Brissett

    What we know: I don't think Rick loves using him but every year something happens to someone and voila Oshae gets taken off the shelf.

    The Angel and the Devil really don't think much of him either way. The angel is always positive and hopes things go good and the devil is always willing to add a player to a Turner trade in hopes of facilitating something.

    What I think: Hard to believe he's only 24, seems older. But he seems like a good team player, good citizen. Always tries when he gets a chance and on occasion delivers some spectacular results but just as often you forget he's on the floor.

    Moving onto the team itself and here is where we let the angel and the devil have free reign. BTW, I'm not talking about Goga, Terry, Chris or James Johnson. Just not enough time on the floor to really discuss.

    What we know. Well we have a 12-8 record. Other than the angel how many honestly thought we'd be here at this point? If you said yes most likely you are lying or where high at the time you thought it. Now to be fair we've played a lot of sub par teams and some teams that were missing a lot of core players but then again you can only play the schedule that is in front of you and our record on back to backs is actually beyond strong, in fact it's perfect. Here is the dirty dirty truth. At 12 wins at best we really can only win 10-12 more game the rest of the year to still be in the hunt for the top overall pick. Unless Haliburton sustains a major injury and even then I'm not sure Nembhard and McConnell wouldn't do well enough to still get you better, we are out of the tank whether we like it or not. The team is just to good right now. No, not contenders but they are not going to lose to bad or mediocre teams enough to get that low.

    The angel on my right shoulder has ditched his harp for a loud electric guitar and is leading band of loud cheering angels with the opening chords to Thunderstruck. He told us we were always to good to lose orama for Wembanyama. But why stop at just not being bad. He wants to know why not us why not now? He not only thinks this is a playoff team but this is a deep playoff team and if we all just believe with him we can help propel the team deep into the east. He loves the core, he loves the coach, he loves boomer. He even loves the devil in this case.

    The devil on my left has also picked up a guitar and he has invited a special guest to assist him as out strolls cinotimz to ring the bell while V let's lose with the intro to Hell's Bells (it's an AC/DC night). While the devil start reciting how we are once again building towards the middle. That for once we did it right last year, got a high draft pick and you see the results, we got a great player. At this point Cinotimz unfurls a banner that reads "TURNER SUCKS" in blood red letters. But no we once again are going to be satisfied with just being good enough and we are going to keep our two tradeable assets when we could have gotten future first round picks and cap space as well as being bad enough to select a once in a lifetime player.

    What I think: I go back to where I started all of this at. I don't care what your thoughts are about the record, this team is just a hell of a lot of fun to watch. But ultimately I have to ask myself at 20 games, do I believe?

    Well I believe we are 12-8 and I believe the old statement is you are what your record says you are. We are one and one on this trip and one was a humiliating loss and the second could have been but ultimately ended up being the best win so far this season. This road trip will tell us a lot but ultimately I believe we will end up somewhere around the play in or maybe even 6th spot. In years past I would probably have been upset by that because I had zero faith in those teams. This team is different, I think playoff experience will help them and the dream of # 1 really ended for me at about the 8th win or so and frankly I had come into the season expecting to lose so I wasn't bothered by early season losses but now to be honest if we started to lose a lot again I don't think I could handle it because I now am to damned invested in wins again, which is my own fault I know.

    Man I wish I could have given you guys something better for a 20 game review but right now I just honestly can't tell you where the team will actually end at. I could still see 30 some wins or hell I can even see mid 40's if things go well.

    But either way I'll keep having Bobby Mac and Vnlza eating away with BBQ.
    Last edited by Peck; 11-30-2022, 04:30 AM.

    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Peck...i was having flashbacks to PD christmas carol posts as i read this....really fun and informative at the same time...

    It caused me to look back for the christmas carol threads...i found one from 2019...but whatever happened to the older ones circa early 2000s? All of them were/are true classics...

    As for this one...i sense you really really really want to believe....but your experience is giving you a bit of an uneasy feeling...almost like that 'if its too good to be true, then it probably isnt' vibe

    i wholeheartedly agree as i think most do...the team is far more fun to watch than it has been in a very long time...some quality young players-starting with Hali-along with some realistic hope has a way of doing that...

    fantastic was as fun to read as the current team is to watch...

    Maybe we should start chanting "PD Christmas Carol"
    Wemby 2023

    Sabonis 2024


    • #3
      I agree with you on the Sabonis trade. As much as I loved him, Haliburton is better for this team.

      Turner is great when he's great. His final shot last night (not just a miss but a huge brick, near air ball) is evidence of him being real bad when he's bad. I am bracing for the re-signing and rooting with the devil for something better. He is streaky. He seems to have improved, but as you noted, we've seen this mini-series before.

      I think the big difference is the mentality of our two stars, Hali and Math. They are winners. They are gamers. They keep pushing, they keep wanting and willing the win, especially when down, and it is infectious for the whole team. So it may not be one of them making the play down the stretch, it may be the role player who stepped up that night because of their psychological leadership.

      The other difference is Rick. I think he's a great coach. He was tanking last year. This year he's in it to win it. It's the first year we've seen the real Rick. Not only is he a great tactician, he seems to be very on target in his advice regarding trades and drafting. There is very little that I can criticize regarding his performance.

      Excellent post. Different genre, but it worked.
      Last edited by McKeyFan; 11-30-2022, 12:52 AM.
      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference


      • #4
        Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post

        The other difference is Rick. I think he's a great coach. He was tanking last year. This year he's in it to win it. It's the first year we've seen the real Rick. Not only is he a great tactician, he seems to be very on target in his advice regarding trades and drafting. There is very little that I can criticize regarding his performance.
        Agreed! really trust RC involved in drafting. I have no idea and rick would never state as such just gut feeling reason we have nembhard is RC. KP is good at deals but I hope if last seasons draft selections were all but made by RC we stay the course.


        • #5
          Originally posted by Peck View Post
          This team is different, I think playoff experience will help them and the dream of # 1 really ended for me at about the 8th win or so and frankly I had come into the season expecting to lose so I wasn't bothered by early season losses but now to be honest if we started to lose a lot again I don't think I could handle it because I now to damned invested in wins again, which is my own fault I know.
          Can totally relate to this. The first week or so of the season was so easy. No pressure, no expectations, no stress. Losing was just fine as long as the young got meaningful minutes. That didn't last long. Back to highs and lows. Back to that pit in my stomach in the 4th quarter of a tight game. Back to all of the emotions that come along with being an irrational fan. Couldn't be happier about it.


          • #6
            Peck, very nice write up. Pacers are 12 and 8, this projects into a 49 win season. I believe this team is very deep, and there are several players who can step in when needed; we are able to play a real 10 man rotation; this means that when we get to a hard stretch, lots of games against good teams, we will have well rested players. This team has exceeded my expectations, I believe this will continue. Just listen to the Angel. Go Pacers!


            • #7
              During the trade thread last year, part of the reason I liked the trade so much was because even though Haliburton's ceiling was around Sabonis, I believed Haliburton was pretty close to that already.

              I was wrong. He's already better than him at 22! I'm not sure if he has any more room to grow, but who cares. A top 15 player for a long, long time? He's incredible.

              I actually agree with people who suggest that a lot of Turner's improvement is that he is being put in a better situation than he has the last few years. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I will point out one big difference than even two years ago. Turner earlier in his career had a Mahinmi like problem of struggling to catch the ball in traffic. His hands were horrendous. He could not have been this good on the pick and roll, great point guard or not. Are his hands amazing now? No. But they are way better.

              Nesmith is a player that the Pacers should devote the year to and see if he can figure it out. The interesting thing to watch with him: he has been horrible from close this year. He's shooting 46.7% at the rim! And 21.4% from 3-10 feet! Now that's only about on 14 shots each so far, but that's a key reason he has been secretly pretty bad so far this year.

              The team overall? Looking around .500 a couple games one way or the other once the schedule evens out. Of course injuries and trades will matter a great deal, especially for this team which isn't particularly deep (I would say deep in interesting players, but not deep in good players) and is really relying on a few players to carry them.


              • #8
                My thoughts on Turner is that I don't trust him. I like him for the overall fit for the team but an inconsistent player I would not overpay for so if the team makes him a competitive offer in the range of 23 mil I would be fine with it but I would not even entertain the thought of 28 to 30 mill. The team also has viable developmental players behind him and we have a smorgasbord of draft picks to address the center position.

                The bigger issue is that the team will sit on the fence once again and ride this out for a second round exit in the playoffs. Turner will most likely hit the FA market for a bigger contract than we will want to offer which brings me to the point of I don't get the impression we have a clear direction on where we are headed with Turner.

                All that being said the Pacers need a competitive playoff appearance to remain relevant not just in the city but in the minds of other NBA players that will be free agents.


                • #9
                  The devil?

                  Winning is nice and all but at the end of the day making the playoffs ain’t doing anything for this team, I mean tanking last year has done more good than anything that has happened to this team for a decade, never forget how anti tankers (including mr angel) wanted Pacers to complement Brogdon/LeVert/Softner/Warren, anti tankers would have been ok with trading the pick as long as they got their first round exit fix.

                  Tanking this year and getting rid of worthless players (you know who I’m talking about) could open the door to get one or two more solid pieces to put around Hali/Mathu.
                  @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!


                  • #10
                    Do not pull a Minnesota, don’t think that you are close to the sun and start making trash trades.

                    Mathu is just a rookie don’t make win now trades or sign trash players that are not part of the future long term just because you are afraid of taking an step back.

                    Remember that you have Halligod do not overpay for average players like Softner, fill that position with somebody else average and cheap (you got Jalen), there is no doubt he will make them look good.

                    Use the money for real difference makers (see Cleveland).
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!


                    • #11
                      One other thing that is important to watch.

                      First 10 games 117.1 offensive rating, 118.0 defensive rating. That would be tied for 2nd in offense in the league, and 28th on defense

                      Second 10 games: 113.2 offensive rating, 109.5 defensive rating. That would be tied for 14th in offense in the league, and 5th on defense.

                      Over a 10 game sample, that could be just the opponents the Pacers have played. But with the Pacers being a young team and rotations changing, there could be a legitimate change hidden in there. It will be interesting to see at the halfway point if the Pacers offense or defense end up being better.


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                        Tanking this year and getting rid of worthless players (you know who I’m talking about) could open the door to get one or two more solid pieces to put around Hali/Mathu.
                        Hyperbole aside, this is the other axis of debate: "What do we now believe about the Pacers' timeline back to relevance?" Do we tank because we're still 5+ years away? Do we stand pat the entire season, enjoy our youth and competitive spirit, and cling to optimism that we'll not only make the playoffs but perhaps even win in the first round? Or do we conclude that we finally have drafted a few "keepers" and try to parlay some of our depth and extra draft picks into another long-term piece to add to our mix?

                        "He’s no shrinking violet when it comes to that kind of stuff."

                        - Rick Carlisle on how Kevin Pritchard responds to needed roster changes.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                          The devil?

                          Winning is nice and all but at the end of the day making the playoffs ain’t doing anything for this team, I mean tanking last year has done more good than anything that has happened to this team for a decade, never forget how anti tankers (including mr angel) wanted Pacers to complement Brogdon/LeVert/Softner/Warren, anti tankers would have been ok with trading the pick as long as they got their first round exit fix.

                          Tanking this year and getting rid of worthless players (you know who I’m talking about) could open the door to get one or two more solid pieces to put around Hali/Mathu.
                          Its somewhat puzzling to me that with as excited as everyone seems to be about Benn, that very few seem to give much thought as to how we acquired him
                          Wemby 2023

                          Sabonis 2024


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DrFife View Post

                            Hyperbole aside, this is the other axis of debate: "What do we now believe about the Pacers' timeline back to relevance?" Do we tank because we're still 5+ years away? Do we stand pat the entire season, enjoy our youth and competitive spirit, and cling to optimism that we'll not only make the playoffs but perhaps even win in the first round? Or do we conclude that we finally have drafted a few "keepers" and try to parlay some of our depth and extra draft picks into another long-term piece to add to our mix?
                            I have a feeling that this is what they are going to do, big mistake if that happens.

                            Them making playoffs and losing on the first round is a nice history in 22 but is not that nice when it keeps happening year after year because the team wasn't patient enough to rebuild the right way.
                            @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!


                            • #15
                              I'm fine with flipping picks for a long term core piece so long as that player is indeed someone that fits well with Tyler/Benn, young enough to fit their timeline and has a meaningful impact on our future trajectory. Finding that player is another matter.