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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

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If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

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Odd Thoughts at the midway point of the 21/22 season

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts at the midway point of the 21/22 season

    Two weeks ago this was a very easy post to write. Basically the generalized malaise of the team tied into a very poor on court production was going to be very easy to break down. However Lance arrived and has made part of this more difficult to do. Make no mistake the on court product is still abysmal but the basic overall likability dynamic has shifted ever so slightly. Even with Lance on the team we have lost 4 out of the 5 games he has played.

    As it stands right now, the team is on pace to win 30 games for the year, that is if we just repeat what we have done the first half of the season. We are in what anybody would call a stretch of games that would challenge a great team let alone one who, by definition, is a poor team. There is a real possibility that we don't reach 15 more wins the rest of the season, but then again it's possible they will win more. There is just no way to tell.

    Look coming into the year I was distraught, which for me began a couple of seasons ago when I came to the realization that we had built a team that at best was a first round exit team and most likely was going to decrease every year and I saw literally no way out of that position. I knew that management (at the time I was not aware of Herb's full involvement) would not take any form of risk that would not dramatically improve the team and that we would be on the treadmill to nowhere for the next few seasons.

    At the gathering over the summer there were people looking at me like I had two heads when I said this was a nowhere team and I doubted we even made the playoffs beyond the play in.

    Even I had no idea we would end up being as bad as we are.

    There is just no two ways of looking at this, this team is poorly constructed, no real hierarchy of players and up until Lance arrived was a fun to watch play as filling out paperwork for your Doctors appointment.

    Basically that is the real rub for a lot of us, it's not so much the being bad bothered us (a lot of us lived through the O'Brien years) but it was the fact that this team was just no fun to watch. In fact unless you were a Pacers fan I doubt seriously if a single person on here would voluntarily tune in to watch this team play.

    In fact I was wondering aloud which version of the Pacers was worse. The version we are seeing currently on the floor or the Jim O'Brien era pacers and shockingly I came to the conclusion that the O'Brien era pacers were more fun to watch. I hate the coach back then but there were some young players who I actually enjoyed and always believed that if they had a different coach they would be better. Right now I don't hate the coach but honestly beyond a couple of them I don't have any burning desire to see any of the current players play.

    I had planned on going over every player in detail to the good and the bad with them but I just could not bring myself to it. So I'm just going to hit some broad strokes on some of the guys but I really am going to focus more on the big picture and just go from there.

    But first let us deal with Lance. To be honest I'm not a Lance fan per se, I know exactly what he is and I also know why some fans love him and I also know why some fans hate him. But right now, whether the I hate Lance crowd will ever admit it or not this team needs Lance.

    If I could have written an advertisement for what this team needed (beyond a true star player) it would have been what Paul Stanley put in the village voice nearly 50 years ago. Lead guitarist wanted with flash and balls. The voice edited to be flash and ability.

    This team needed a player who had flash and balls in the worst possible way.

    I was there at Lance's first home game and I'm telling you that place hasn't been that alive since the last time Lance played there. I don't even know how many standing ovations the guy got that night, but it went way beyond that. There was a buzz in the crowd, people were active engaged and alive. Was it because Lance was great, well for the first quarter he absolutely was, but it was more than just that. Lance, love him or hate him, has a personality. The crowd responds to that. Go back in your mind and remember Rodney Stucky. Many people said they had the same abilities, in fact George Hill mad the comment that they were the same player. Now in my mind that was never true, but let's pretend it was. What do you remember about Rodney Stucky? If your being honest your saying "not much". Now think about Malcolm Brogdan or even Caris LeVert, other than some on court attribute do either of them strike you as players you feel the need to root for? Again, if we're being honest with ourselves I think we say no.

    Does Lance change the course of this team? Well to be honest it concerns me that he might actually change us enough to drop back down to the 9-11 spot in the draft. But other than that? No, this is not a playoff team. So while I believe Lance is great to have here for the fan base and just honestly for the watch ability of the team, he by himself will not impact by much the overall win/loss total.

    Which brings me to a big picture type of talk. Put on your seat belts and prepare for it because this part most likely be a knock down drag out fight because we are going to openly talk about the dreaded word
    TANKING.

    Look to be honest with you I'm as anti tanking as you can get to a certain extent. I don't believe it is a guarantee to anything and in the end for every San Antonio there is a Sacramento and beyond. I believe the culture it takes to do season long tank jobs ultimately hurts the product.

    However having said all of that and not believing in it, there does come a point in time that you are not only just doing the same crap over and over you start to see diminishing returns which is where you are right now with this team. Look the idea of no stars but a group of players who can score sounds good but in reality has never worked in the NBA. To get to the upper levels of the playoffs you have to have at least one true star player and honestly that player has to be a dynamic wing or guard. Centers, as much as I love them, just typically are not going to be able to be the big star and advance. Does not mean the position is useless, far from it, but that really can't be where your superstar play comes from.

    So what I am saying is this. To me the only way this team ever going to get out of this first round mentality (which yes I realize the first round it not even an option at this point) is by getting dynamic young talent we can build around. Now you could possibly do that by trading Sabonis, however that is a hell of a risk to take because he is still young and easily fits in next to any type of good dynamic player and improves them.

    No, sadly the best thing that could happen to this team is for Lance to be exciting, win some home games but basically just end the season the way they started it. Poorly. We need a high draft pick. But wait getting a high draft pick is no guarantee of anything you say. Well, your right of course but doing the same crap over and over year after year is getting us nowhere but on a downward trajectory and we have got to end this.

    However this comes to what I consider the biggest issue of all. Ownership.

    Look I know we all have our own opinions of Pritchard and IMO he deserves an enormous amount of the blame for where we are because of the absolute awfulness of our drafting since he has been here. I mean we literally went from Myles Turner (before his time) to Chris Duarte without a single rotational player coming to us via the draft. Being a small market team you just can not go that long without getting some help in the draft.

    But this segment is going to be reserved for Herb Simon. As always I will forever be grateful to Herb for saving this team. We aren't even having this conversation if Herb and his brother did not buy the team and kept the franchise here.

    I will defend Herb for his press conference he hastily threw together a few weeks ago because they stated he had signed off on what was akin to tanking and Herb does not believe in it and wanted to make sure that the fans who don't believe in it either (there are a lot more than you think btw) knew he didn't believe in it and it was his chance to basically tell Kravitz he needs to verify his sources. So I get why he was upset and why he did it. Also let's not get to picky about the "little team" phrase. He is an Octogenarian and believe me when I say someone who is my age has a hard time following a lot of what someone who is in their early 20's say's. In other words that might just be the way his generation talks.

    Now having said all of that I will regretfully say this. It's time to pass the reigns of the team over to his Son. You have your head of basketball operations (Pritchard) telling you that this team is not good enough and it's time to go in a different direction and you start remembering how his two predecessors pulled off things 20 and 30 years ago and deny his request. Well time has marched on and while he has every right to be proud of the team and of the record of the past couple of decades the reality is we haven't really won anything and that is part of what I believe is a cultural problem with the team and that is we are satisfied with being good. Or as I like to say, good is good enough. Making the playoffs is something to be proud of at times, but not all of the time. Not advancing in the playoffs for 7 years is not anything to be proud of.

    We have also found out that he has vetoed trades that were already approved of by other teams. Again, its his team and money so he can do what he wants. But this certainly flies in the face of a hands off owner who let's his basketball people run the team.

    His not making big changes, as he so proudly said, worked well back in the day of long term contracts and low player movement. But contracts today are made shorter for the exact reason why there is so much dynamic movement of players across the NBA.

    Money spending is a weird thing with him. In many ways he certainly will spend up to the tax, always has been willing to do that. However there does seem to be hesitancy to sign big names simply because it would go into the tax. Again, the tax is big for them because not only do they have to pay it at that point if they go into it but they lose out on the revenue that non tax teams get. But there comes a point in time where if you are going to compete for something beyond a first round exit you are going to have to spend. Fortunately for him, right now, we are nowhere near that point so to me the tax is not something he should go over and frankly I would not blame them a bit for making some money saving trades simply because the return of investment is so poor with what we have.

    Frankly the entire franchise needs a new way of thinking and a fresher way of approaching team building and as sad as it makes me to say it, that can only happen with a change at the top.

    Now can this season be salvaged? As we stand, no absolutely not. T.J. Warren is not going to walk onto the court and change things no matter how badly Kevin Pritchard tells us that him coming back after the trade deadline is akin to getting an all-star.

    No this team need broken up in the worst of ways. At this point in time I don't even care what players are moved or kept, we just need movement. The bigs, who btw are not really the reason the team plays bad, need broken up. I obviously have my preference but I also understand my player would be the one who could bring back a treasure trove of assets.

    We need speed, we need length, we desperately need athleticism and overall toughness both physical and mental. We need lottery level talent.

    So basically the midway report is however you look at it. We are horrible, but in some ways that may be exactly what we need.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
    • 13 likes
  • #2
    Herb needs to sell the team and let somebody younger that knows we are in 2022 do his his thing.
    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!
    • 4 likes

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    • #3
      Something else KP has done, is run with twin towers for years now and we have gone years without a point guard. How do we continue to have a team with two starting centers and no point guard? Yes he has drafted poorly, but if he was not part of the incompetence as much as you would suggest he would either quit, or build/change the team without having two starting centers and no starting point guard. Also, how has he allowed Malcolm Brogdon and the like to do his job? Why has he allowed Myles to be such a temperamental player without ever reigning his social media antics in? Why did we trade our 32nd pick in the TJ Warren trade for 5 second round picks 6 years down the road?

      KP is so incompetent that Brogdon and co persuaded him to fire Nate McMillan to replace him with a black coach, only to replace him with two white coaches??? Yeah, I'm willing to blame Herb as much, but KP is a grifter and he is holding our team hostage. At what point did we become the Sacramento Kings/Minnesota Timberwolves? It is like I don't even trust us to have a fire sale and tank, surely he would find a way to screw that up. It took him years to sign Lance because of a rapper-tier beef between the two over an interview and an instagram post!!!! Not to mention the whole "tears in the eyes" moment where we should have 100% pursued Kemba Walker harder (DC and TJ Leaf, plus if it was 3 first rounds picks it just would have been Goga, no first round pick when Herb let the Bucks **** his wife for free or whatever, and Aaron Holiday), what a bumbling ****tard.

      Also, we have let Thad, Bojan, DC, Doug McDermott, and Tyreke Evans all walk for nothing. No late first round picks, no second round picks, no prospects, just rentals of mediocre players for mediocre seasons. Now we are going to let Myles Turner go for depressed Roy Hibbert-esque trade value, or let him walk for nothing when he surely leaves in a year and a half. The one thing that we do right, the one thing is finding G League guys and undervalued waived role players post trade deadline, and Damien Wilkins/Lance guys when needed. Why on Gods green earth do we build these max contract bench units, year after year after year after year?

      Look, and I keep having to go back and editing to make more points... But I can understand some of the blunders. Caris Levert, Malcolm Brogdon, few predicted that they would have been so pedestrian. Nobody would have guessed that Victor Oladipo would have let the little attention that he got completely go to his head, followed by his injuries. His back has been against the wall. At some point, we have got to pick up the pieces and recognize that we have two centers and no point guard in the starting lineup, and it has been this way for years, whilst having wings that are pitiful.
      Last edited by BringJackBack; 01-12-2022, 06:54 PM.
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      • #4
        I'm preparing for yet another trade deadline to pass without any moves. Or at least without any moves that indicate the desperately needed change in approach. Won't be unlike last summer when the everyone and their brother in the NBA - verse could see plain as the nose on their collective faces that we needed moves to break up this ill-fitting roster.

        Alas, but to no one's surprise, crickets. This boring collection of mediocre, misfit talent won't be solved/improved by so-called "win-now", lateral moves. And those are the only kind of moves possible because we don't have enough value to bring back the level of talent we need to pair with our abundance of complementary players. Please, for the love of all that's holy, let's adopt an approach that at least gives us hope for the future - target/accumulate young, dynamic players with development potential and additional draft picks (the higher the better). Most of all, no meaningless late season runs that, at best, get us in the play in.
        I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

        -Emiliano Zapata
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        • #5
          Peck i heard KP left the game tonight mid 1st quarter is that true?

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          • #6
            I think some posters (me and V) saw that this team wasn’t going anywhere this year. Am I surprised? No, because we ran back the same team as last year that lost in the play-in.

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by Motion Offense View Post
              Peck i heard KP left the game tonight mid 1st quarter is that true?
              If he did he was back midway through the second because I dd see him then. In fact I sat the majority of the first quarter in the food service area with Trader Joe exchanging story's and watching the game on the big screen. But when i got up to my seat he was there.

              He typically leaves the game early in the 3rd and does not return. Walsh was the same way, Bird usually made it to the 4th before he left.


              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
              • 1 like

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              • #8
                I am hoping we continue this tank. Get a top 3 pick, trot out the same crap next year, get a top 5 pick. Then in the summer of 2023 we have 65 mil on the books and 50 mil in cap space. You have Sabonis, Brogdon, McConnell, Duarte, Jackson and your two shiny picks. Depending on what type of players these picks are, you sign a max player that fits and hopefully find a second star by using picks you got for Warren, Turner, Levert, Lamb, and so on, combined with a player that has value.
                Trying to enjoy every Pacers game as if it is the last!

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                • #9
                  few comments because i get tired of some of the undercurrents in various posts here:

                  Lance, it would be an understatement to say i did not like him, however..... objectively viewed he screwed his own pooch on previous occasions.
                  my problem was not with Lance the player, but with Lance the showman, his antics and the constant of trying to get the fans involved by throwing them the ball was just too much.

                  The Lance I see now, despite the irritating cult status, is one that is "good" for the team and he seems to be the only one who can throw an entry pass (NO ONE else on the team seems to be able or willing tp do that) a point of great frustration, now I wont go to people not making open shots on outlet passes, that would make me throw up.

                  I still don't understand why I accept the lack of sleep because I'm watching this train wreck.

                  Pritchard, he seems to be blamed for everything and everyone, but we don't see the good things he done anymore, had Oladipo stayed healthy we would look like thieves with the return for Paul George, and he works and lives with limitations put upon him.
                  You blame him for drafting?? Why? Larry Bird still makes those decisions, he still regularly at practise, he's still a (well) paid advisor and was prominent in that role.

                  If you want to blame someone for this franchise going south, he's your man, and his drafting his been suspicious to say the least, signing draftees to 2 year guaranteed contracts just before finding out they were so bad he had to drop them and take the financial hit, he's the one that ruined a roster with Stuckey and co, and only drafted PG because Danny said he should.
                  He's the one who called Lance the best player we drafted, sorry not even a hard core Lance fan buys that knowing what PG became.

                  We can dislike people like PG and VO but should not lose sight of who created that ****storm, who got into head strong battles with players, yes even Lance's first extension, do I need to mention Tinsley?

                  KP has at most an advising voice during the draft, LB runs that show.

                  LB was deemed incompetent by Red Auerbach, so didn't get anywhere with his favourite team (over the Pacers) in the front office, so he came here.

                  I still hate the Celtics for not making him their ceo. (among other things)

                  when his butt is removed from the organisation we will have a chance to rebuild, until then, we are doomed.
                  So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

                  If you've done 6 impossible things today?
                  Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

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                  • #10
                    I don’t want any moves before the deadline because my concern would be that any new players might give us a boost and help us win games. We definitely don’t need that. We’ve come too far with this garbage and need to secure that high lotto pick. I want this team to stay as is right now because it really sucks.

                    Get that draft pick, find a new GM, and blow this mess up in the summer.
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                    • #11
                      Well said Peck!

                      For all of the pro tankers, I just want to point out that 2 times in our NBA history we have had the #2 overall pick. Our selections were Steve Stipanovich and Rik Smits. Just because we get a top 5 pick does not mean we will get a great player. I’m just saying that you should remember that if we suffer through a 26-56 season and wind up making a bad selection. Historically we have had much better success selecting around #10.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sav View Post
                        Well said Peck!

                        For all of the pro tankers, I just want to point out that 2 times in our NBA history we have had the #2 overall pick. Our selections were Steve Stipanovich and Rik Smits. Just because we get a top 5 pick does not mean we will get a great player. I’m just saying that you should remember that if we suffer through a 26-56 season and wind up making a bad selection. Historically we have had much better success selecting around #10.
                        I’m scared of us using a top 3 pick on Chet. When was the last time we saw a toothpick-sized center make a real difference in this league? The idea of building a franchise around him gives me nightmares.
                        I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Peck View Post
                          We have also found out that he has vetoed trades that were already approved of by other teams. Again, its his team and money so he can do what he wants. But this certainly flies in the face of a hands off owner who let's his basketball people run the team.
                          My memory is failing me right now. Were details of specific veto trades leaked or was it just the notion that he vetoed trades in place that would have started a rebuild?

                          Either way, the way he’s conducted business with this team is suspect at best.
                          I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sav View Post
                            Well said Peck!

                            For all of the pro tankers, I just want to point out that 2 times in our NBA history we have had the #2 overall pick. Our selections were Steve Stipanovich and Rik Smits. Just because we get a top 5 pick does not mean we will get a great player. I’m just saying that you should remember that if we suffer through a 26-56 season and wind up making a bad selection. Historically we have had much better success selecting around #10.
                            The most recent of those was 34 years ago.

                            Yes we’ve made some good picks around 10 or whatever, but there’s not much to compare it to with our franchise. But when you look at the league as a whole, the better players are usually drafted in the high lotto.

                            A high pick will be a good thing. Sure we might screw it up, but at least we will have a chance at someone who can shake our team up.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
                              I don’t want any moves before the deadline because my concern would be that any new players might give us a boost and help us win games. We definitely don’t need that. We’ve come too far with this garbage and need to secure that high lotto pick. I want this team to stay as is right now because it really sucks.

                              Get that draft pick, find a new GM, and blow this mess up in the summer.
                              I think there are definitely trades out there that could bring a young player that will not equate to more wins this year (or next really) but set up a more balanced & athletic team 2-3 years down road. This years lottery matters but 2023 is the draft year this Pacers team really wants to be picking in the top 7 or 8....

                              If the Warriors can't separate from the Suns could Kuminga be had in a trade for Turner? You likely have to eat Wisemans deal and add in a protected future 1st but not impossible to work out

                              Could you get Sexton for Levert & Holiday if you eat Rubio's contract for the rest of the year? What about a Levert & Holiday for Rubio & Okoro? Both of those trades work salary wise

                              There are workable deals out there that include two of three between PJ Washington/Kai Jones/Bouknight for Turner if you take on Plumlee. Maybe get in a Hawks shake-up with a 3-way deal that brings Cam Reddish?




                              Last edited by Downtown Bang!; 01-13-2022, 09:46 AM.
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