Post-game #24 Pacers vs Hawks

[Sollozzo]

The fact that they don't have a top player is why they aren't winning a championship. I agree that's the overall big problem. But that isn't why they are losing in the regular season. Those players are plenty good enough to lead you to 47-50 wins and a 1st/2nd round playoff berth depending on health of each team.

But the players around them are so, so bad right now. I'm not throwing dirt on Duarte's career by saying he's bad. Most rookies are. But when you play a bad rookie almost 30 minutes a game, that's not going to lead to wins. And Holiday is as you describe, a limited minutes player playing way too many minutes right now. LeVert is the one who should be better, but he's just having an awful, awful season so far.

The problem for us is that the East has gotten deeper quick. As recently as 19-20, it was awful from about the 7 seed down. There were a lot of gutter teams that we could rack up wins against. But now you’ve had teams like Chicago, Cleveland, Washington, and Charlotte emerge. All were terrible just a couple years ago.

We aren’t really good enough anywhere. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that Brogdon/Turner/Sabonis are good enough to lead you to 47-50 wins. That is quite a few wins and there is simply too much talent in the NBA nowadays for that core to stand out. There is a lot of talent at the 1-3 spots in the NBA right now and that is where we really come up short.

[dal9]

Duarte is a rookie and should therefore be graded on a massive curve. What are his stats compared to other rookies? That’s the only group that is fair to compare him to right now.

he's old as **** tho...rookie excuse doesn't fly the same way for him

[Eleazar]

The shot selection of this team has been terrible. I cringed when I read Myles complaining about Bjorkgren getting pissed when guys took midrange shots because Bjorkgren was right. That's a shot you shouldn't take unless wide open. Far too many off balanced contested 2's are being taken by these guys.

I blame Rick as much as anybody. His offense hasn't worked well with this group. Open looks haven't been there consistently for this team.

Yet the last time this team was good they took a ton of mid range shots. You take the shots that fit your players' abilities, not the one that in theory has the best value.

[Cubs231721]

What stats are you looking at it? If it’s PER, then Sabonis is 28th in the league, Brogdon is 31st, and Turner is 38th. There are 30 teams in the league and our highest PER player is 28th in the league, but we have 3 players from 28-38.

I’m not as into advanced stats as others, but that seems to dovetail perfectly with the theme of this team: we don’t have any elite players, and instead have 3 guys who are good/very good players but will never propel us to the top. It doesn’t matter if you look at advanced stats, regular stats, or just the eye test. The answer will always be the same.

Brogdon/Turner/Sabonis will always look solid in the stats department, but they aren’t as good as most other team’s best players. That’s where the problem lies. They don’t have the extra gear that the elite players in this league possess. That’s not their fault - but you’ll never go anywhere other than a first round out if these are your top 3 players. It’s a top 3 that will never stack up against a top 3 from a contending team.

Duarte is a rookie and should therefore be graded on a massive curve. What are his stats compared to other rookies? That’s the only group that is fair to compare him to right now.

We aren’t losing games because of a rookie - we are losing because we are not good enough at the top.

Agree that LeVert and Holiday have been terrible, but you’re screwed if you have to rely on those guys.

The fact that they don't have a top player is why they aren't winning a championship. I agree that's the overall big problem. But that isn't why they are losing in the regular season. Those players are plenty good enough to lead you to 47-50 wins and a 1st/2nd round playoff berth depending on health of each team.

But the players around them are so, so bad right now. I'm not throwing dirt on Duarte's career by saying he's bad. Most rookies are. But when you play a bad rookie almost 30 minutes a game, that's not going to lead to wins. And Holiday is as you describe, a limited minutes player playing way too many minutes right now. LeVert is the one who should be better, but he's just having an awful, awful season so far.

[Sollozzo]

LeVert has been awful this year. He was already an inefficient scorer. Now, he's getting to the line half as much and not hitting the 3 at all.

Duarte has been terrible as well. If he would fit into a better version of the Justin Holiday role, he could be potentially pretty decent. But he isn't, and he's taking a ton of 2's right now that are hurting the Pacers, especially since he never gets to the line.

Speaking of Justin Holiday, he hasn't been good either. He doesn't shoot well enough from the outside for that to be all he does, but yet that's exactly what's happening.

Those three are who is really holding the Pacers back this year.

It might not be their fault, the burden on them might be too high. But it's interesting people talk about the big 3 (Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon) when all three of those players have been really good this year. They have been just as good if not better than when the Pacers were winning 50 games, but the infrastructure around them has crumbled.

What stats are you looking at it? If it’s PER, then Sabonis is 28th in the league, Brogdon is 31st, and Turner is 38th. There are 30 teams in the league and our highest PER player is 28th in the league, but we have 3 players from 28-38.

I’m not as into advanced stats as others, but that seems to dovetail perfectly with the theme of this team: we don’t have any elite players, and instead have 3 guys who are good/very good players but will never propel us to the top. It doesn’t matter if you look at advanced stats, regular stats, the eye test, or simply the W-L column. The answer will always be the same.

Brogdon/Turner/Sabonis will always look solid in the stats department, but they aren’t as good as most other team’s best players. That’s where the problem lies. They don’t have the extra gear that the elite players in this league possess. That’s not their fault - but you’ll never go anywhere other than a first round out if these are your top 3 players. It’s a top 3 that will never stack up against a top 3 from a contending team.

Duarte is a rookie and should therefore be graded on a massive curve. What are his stats compared to other rookies? That’s the only group that is fair to compare him to right now.

We aren’t losing games because of a rookie - we are losing because we are not good enough at the top.

Agree that LeVert and Holiday have been terrible, but you’re screwed if you have to rely on those guys.

[owl]

LeVert has been awful this year. He was already an inefficient scorer. Now, he's getting to the line half as much and not hitting the 3 at all.

Duarte has been terrible as well. If he would fit into a better version of the Justin Holiday role, he could be potentially pretty decent. But he isn't, and he's taking a ton of 2's right now that are hurting the Pacers, especially since he never gets to the line.

Speaking of Justin Holiday, he hasn't been good either. He doesn't shoot well enough from the outside for that to be all he does, but yet that's exactly what's happening.

Those three are who is really holding the Pacers back this year.

It might not be their fault, the burden on them might be too high. But it's interesting people talk about the big 3 (Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon) when all three of those players have been really good this year. They have been just as good if not better than when the Pacers were winning 50 games, but the infrastructure around them has crumbled.

The Pacers need an athletic driver and finisher. That alone would make them a much better TEAM.

#diveyforivey

[owl]

True, but I agree with D-Bone's point that Duarte needs to add strength & endurance ... and should have made the layup anyway. After having watched the latest Phi-Slamma-Jamma version of the Timberwolves, do you think a modest jersey tug wouldn't prevented Anthony Edwards from finishing with an emphatic dunk?

That observation has nothing to do with what was not called.

[dal9]

The ball went out of bounds immediately. No?

no they got the rebound dribbled a little and were fouled

[McKeyFan]

right, i think if the play doesn't immediately stop, u can't challenge it

The ball went out of bounds immediately. No?

The shot selection of this team has been terrible. I cringed when I read Myles complaining about Bjorkgren getting pissed when guys took midrange shots because Bjorkgren was right. That's a shot you shouldn't take unless wide open. Far too many off balanced contested 2's are being taken by these guys.

I blame Rick as much as anybody. His offense hasn't worked well with this group. Open looks haven't been there consistently for this team.

None of these guys are Kawhi, Demar, KD, or even CP3 in terms of hitting contested mid range shots at a high rate. I guarantee Brogdon wouldn’t be disliked as much if he was used just like he was on the Bucks.

[CJ Jones]

LeVert has been awful this year. He was already an inefficient scorer. Now, he's getting to the line half as much and not hitting the 3 at all.

Duarte has been terrible as well. If he would fit into a better version of the Justin Holiday role, he could be potentially pretty decent. But he isn't, and he's taking a ton of 2's right now that are hurting the Pacers, especially since he never gets to the line.

Speaking of Justin Holiday, he hasn't been good either. He doesn't shoot well enough from the outside for that to be all he does, but yet that's exactly what's happening.

Those three are who is really holding the Pacers back this year.

It might not be their fault, the burden on them might be too high. But it's interesting people talk about the big 3 (Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon) when all three of those players have been really good this year. They have been just as good if not better than when the Pacers were winning 50 games, but the infrastructure around them has crumbled.

The shot selection of this team has been terrible. I cringed when I read Myles complaining about Bjorkgren getting pissed when guys took midrange shots because Bjorkgren was right. That's a shot you shouldn't take unless wide open. Far too many off balanced contested 2's are being taken by these guys.

I blame Rick as much as anybody. His offense hasn't worked well with this group. Open looks haven't been there consistently for this team.

[dal9]

LeVert has been awful this year. He was already an inefficient scorer. Now, he's getting to the line half as much and not hitting the 3 at all.

Duarte has been terrible as well. If he would fit into a better version of the Justin Holiday role, he could be potentially pretty decent. But he isn't, and he's taking a ton of 2's right now that are hurting the Pacers, especially since he never gets to the line.

Speaking of Justin Holiday, he hasn't been good either. He doesn't shoot well enough from the outside for that to be all he does, but yet that's exactly what's happening.

Those three are who is really holding the Pacers back this year.

It might not be their fault, the burden on them might be too high. But it's interesting people talk about the big 3 (Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon) when all three of those players have been really good this year. They have been just as good if not better than when the Pacers were winning 50 games, but the infrastructure around them has crumbled.

right, this fits with what i see. i bet jho's numbers are better since his horrible start. and duarte's worse since his hot first few games. brogon's been about as decent as he can be. sabonis' TO% has to be pretty rough, but his effort on defense is actually decent this year.

levert? well, what can you say about him that hasn't been said about tyreke evans...

[dal9]

I believe Quinn mentioned that a challenge has to be on a call, not the lack of a call.

right, i think if the play doesn't immediately stop, u can't challenge it

[Cubs231721]

Oh, and I took a quick look at the last 20 seasons. The most losses by 3 points or less was the 2005-2006 Golden State Warriors with 14. The highest since that year was 12.

The Pacers are on pace for 24 losses by that margin.

[Cubs231721]

LeVert has been awful this year. He was already an inefficient scorer. Now, he's getting to the line half as much and not hitting the 3 at all.

Duarte has been terrible as well. If he would fit into a better version of the Justin Holiday role, he could be potentially pretty decent. But he isn't, and he's taking a ton of 2's right now that are hurting the Pacers, especially since he never gets to the line.

Speaking of Justin Holiday, he hasn't been good either. He doesn't shoot well enough from the outside for that to be all he does, but yet that's exactly what's happening.

Those three are who is really holding the Pacers back this year.

It might not be their fault, the burden on them might be too high. But it's interesting people talk about the big 3 (Sabonis, Turner, Brogdon) when all three of those players have been really good this year. They have been just as good if not better than when the Pacers were winning 50 games, but the infrastructure around them has crumbled.