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ECF is possible this year but we NEED a power forward

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  • #1

    ECF is possible this year but we NEED a power forward

    ...and when I ask for a power forward I am not necessarily requesting for a new starter, but at least a true power forward who can play 15-20 minutes a game and is preferably not out of place next to either Sabonis or Turner.

    Twin tower-setup works at times, but we can not run it for 30 minutes a game or we would put too much pressure on shoulders of Goga, who would then need to reliably anchor the team for 10 nightly playoff minutes.

    Small-ball line-ups (Warren/Doug/Justin at PF) work occasionally too, but they are something we should NOT be forced to use - only use selectively.

    Alize & Jakarr & Leaf are buried so deep right now that none of them will be in playoff rotation unless a huge injury bug hits. That is pretty easy bet to make.


    So we need to make a trade for a serviceable PF. I have previously proposed scanning the market for Sumner (obviously will be a player, but too many guys in front of him - especially after Dipo eventually returns). If he could net us Juancho Hernangomez / Noah Vonleh -type, I would be satisfied.

    Other targets could be :

    1) John Henson. Can rebound, can block shots very well for a PF (nice skill next to Sabo), CAN NOT shoot. Injury-prone too. I would like him anyway and he sure is expendable for Cavs, but his contract of 9,7 mil is a problem. It is an expiring one so there is no long-term repercussions but what can we trade back to make it work?

    Alternative 1 : Jeremy Lamb for John Henson + picks. Picks would be either Milwaukee 2022 1st-rounder or few 2nd-round picks. We would lose quite a bit in quality while Cavs would get a player which doesn't really fit their timeline. I think this is two-way PASS!

    Alternative 2 : Justin Holiday + T.J. Leaf for John Henson + 2nd-round pick. This would be a good value trade both ways, BUT I would be wary of it hurting us more on chemistry-side than it helps in roster-makeup. PASS too...

    So cross Henson's name over. Trade scenarios do not work well enough.


    2) Dario Saric. Saric is playing on the last year of his rookie contract and was not given an extension yet. He is starting for Suns, but looks to my eye a bit lost in their scheme. Not a good fit next to Booker IMO. For those reasons he could well be tradeable (it helps that Suns ongoing 8-game losing streak is already dropping them out of playoff-contenderhood). As an upcoming RFA whom we would have full Bird Rights to, he would also be a perfect player to fit in our remaining luxury tax space (as we will be above salary cap and thus very limited in free agent market next summer). Plenty of salary structure reasons for BOTH teams to like this trade!

    So T.J. Leaf + three 2nd-round picks (Utah 2021, our 2023, Miami 2025) for Dario Saric. Is that enough value for Phoenix? Maybe not, hope yes. I would gladly add a 1st-rounder here but we don't have one to trade due to Brogdon-trade. The protections on a pick given to Milwaukee prevent us to trade one before 2028 for now (and one can not trade a pick further than 7 seasons forward so 2028 is not in the play either). I doubt adding Sumner to package would move needle much but would happily do that too...


    3) Kyle Kuzma. If the late twitter-drama is legitimate then Kuzma will be soon out of Lakers-door (and I don't blame him for calling out LeDiva). We don't have a small-contract difference-maker nor that 1st-rounder to offer, but there COULD BE a high-rolling 2-way gamble available...

    Victor Oladipo for Danny Green + Kyle Kuzma. We gamble that Dipo will never be the same again, Lakers gamble he will be a legit 3rd fiddle already this spring.

    Yeah, I know that Pacers would never do something this bold, but if you look at it from a perspective that we basically would add an experienced ring-winner Green AND Kuzma without losing a minute's worth of play from our current 21-11 team - hey, we would be a serious contender.


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  • #2
    Originally posted by PetPaima View Post
    ...and when I ask for a power forward I am not necessarily requesting for a new starter, but at least a true power forward who can play 15-20 minutes a game and is preferably not out of place next to either Sabonis or Turner.

    Twin tower-setup works at times, but we can not run it for 30 minutes a game or we would put too much pressure on shoulders of Goga, who would then need to reliably anchor the team for 10 nightly playoff minutes.

    Small-ball line-ups (Warren/Doug/Justin at PF) work occasionally too, but they are something we should NOT be forced to use - only use selectively.

    Alize & Jakarr & Leaf are buried so deep right now that none of them will be in playoff rotation unless a huge injury bug hits. That is pretty easy bet to make.


    So we need to make a trade for a serviceable PF. I have previously proposed scanning the market for Sumner (obviously will be a player, but too many guys in front of him - especially after Dipo eventually returns). If he could net us Juancho Hernangomez / Noah Vonleh -type, I would be satisfied.

    Other targets could be :

    1) John Henson. Can rebound, can block shots very well for a PF (nice skill next to Sabo), CAN NOT shoot. Injury-prone too. I would like him anyway and he sure is expendable for Cavs, but his contract of 9,7 mil is a problem. It is an expiring one so there is no long-term repercussions but what can we trade back to make it work?

    Alternative 1 : Jeremy Lamb for John Henson + picks. Picks would be either Milwaukee 2022 1st-rounder or few 2nd-round picks. We would lose quite a bit in quality while Cavs would get a player which doesn't really fit their timeline. I think this is two-way PASS!

    Alternative 2 : Justin Holiday + T.J. Leaf for John Henson + 2nd-round pick. This would be a good value trade both ways, BUT I would be wary of it hurting us more on chemistry-side than it helps in roster-makeup. PASS too...

    So cross Henson's name over. Trade scenarios do not work well enough.


    2) Dario Saric. Saric is playing on the last year of his rookie contract and was not given an extension yet. He is starting for Suns, but looks to my eye a bit lost in their scheme. Not a good fit next to Booker IMO. For those reasons he could well be tradeable (it helps that Suns ongoing 8-game losing streak is already dropping them out of playoff-contenderhood). As an upcoming RFA whom we would have full Bird Rights to, he would also be a perfect player to fit in our remaining luxury tax space (as we will be above salary cap and thus very limited in free agent market next summer). Plenty of salary structure reasons for BOTH teams to like this trade!

    So T.J. Leaf + three 2nd-round picks (Utah 2021, our 2023, Miami 2025) for Dario Saric. Is that enough value for Phoenix? Maybe not, hope yes. I would gladly add a 1st-rounder here but we don't have one to trade due to Brogdon-trade. The protections on a pick given to Milwaukee prevent us to trade one before 2028 for now (and one can not trade a pick further than 7 seasons forward so 2028 is not in the play either). I doubt adding Sumner to package would move needle much but would happily do that too...


    3) Kyle Kuzma. If the late twitter-drama is legitimate then Kuzma will be soon out of Lakers-door (and I don't blame him for calling out LeDiva). We don't have a small-contract difference-maker nor that 1st-rounder to offer, but there COULD BE a high-rolling 2-way gamble available...

    Victor Oladipo for Danny Green + Kyle Kuzma. We gamble that Dipo will never be the same again, Lakers gamble he will be a legit 3rd fiddle already this spring.

    Yeah, I know that Pacers would never do something this bold, but if you look at it from a perspective that we basically would add an experienced ring-winner Green AND Kuzma without losing a minute's worth of play from our current 21-11 team - hey, we would be a serious contender.

    While I agree with the idea the execution is down right terrible, especially that last trade it's just plan stupid. Like unbelievably dumb to think we would trade Oladipo who was not only our best player when healthy, but the heart & soul of this team for a spot-up shooter & a guy who hasn't shown any real improvement this year.

    Now that my rant is over, let's actually look at this realistically.

    Here are a few names that could be achievable: Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, Davis Bertans

    Marcus Morris for Jeremy Lamb & TJ Leaf - Marcus is averaging 18.6ppg right now, which is pretty impressive but he is on the god awful Knicks team. He could straight away take that back-up PF role & although we only just signed Lamb he seems like the odd one out with the Holidays playing so well. Morris is on an expiring deal so going well maybe an extension at a discount on the cards.

    Markieff Morris for TJ Leaf + 2 2nd Round Picks - Markieff is only owed $3mil this year with a player option next year so it doesn't take much to get the deal done. Problem here is it makes more of a logjam in terms of finding minutes for everyone.

    Davis Bertans + CJ Miles (expiring) for Jeremy Lamb, Edmond Sumner + Future 2nd Round Pick - Bertans has definitely cooled off as of late, but his ability to knock down the long ball can't be denied & he would be a great acquisition off the bench. Given his play his price is quite high, but given our depth at wing we can afford it. Lamb + Sumner both head out as they could both start for Washington next to Beal.
    • 1 like

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    • #3
      Marcus Morris' numbers seem to be a classic case of "someone must score in a bad team too". Yeah, he averages 18 ppg, but it comes on huge volume of shots too... Not out of him being any good.

      I would rather (similar contract) take Portis than Marcus off Knicks. Portis is way stronger rebounder and that is our main weakness.

      I don't think Washington goes for that package. I see no value in Lamb for them (I see value in Lamb but not for Wizs) and Sumner is not yet hot-enough prospect.

      I intentionally left out everybody from the teams contending for Eastern playoff berths because there is more complications in in-season trades between rivals.


      I knew that Dipo-proposal will be hated . It was obviously and blatantly controversial idea, which would ONLY prove to make sense if Dipo ends up being done.

      I just tend to forecast that he is indeed done. I don't expect him to ever regain his previous level and not to play more than 4-5 seasons and 200 games in the league from here onwards. Will be next chapter to add to Kellogg / Stipo / Bender chapter of Pacers history. Sorry.


      I wonder why you hate the idea about Saric though...?

      Henson I clearly stated that I would pass due to lack of a suitable trade.

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      • #4
        I don't mind you bringing up the Dipo trade idea. All things should be explored.

        From a psychological level, it would hurt a lot of team chemistry and fan enthusiasm to trade the guy who's been dancing and cheering on the sideline all season.

        Here's my question: which of those mentioned in this thread (Kuzma, Bertans, Saric, etc.) truly fit the defensive four need we have? It seems like we get into this discussion and immediately get distracted with someone's scoring or rebounding ability, which are obviously factors to consider, but lose focus on the primary need. Who can be our pf defender?
        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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        • #5
          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
          . . . Kuzma, Bertans, Saric, etc.. . . Who can be our pf defender?
          None of those guys.
          • 3 likes

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          • #6
            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
            I don't mind you bringing up the Dipo trade idea. All things should be explored.

            From a psychological level, it would hurt a lot of team chemistry and fan enthusiasm to trade the guy who's been dancing and cheering on the sideline all season.

            Here's my question: which of those mentioned in this thread (Kuzma, Bertans, Saric, etc.) truly fit the defensive four need we have? It seems like we get into this discussion and immediately get distracted with someone's scoring or rebounding ability, which are obviously factors to consider, but lose focus on the primary need. Who can be our pf defender?
            Saric is one of those jack-of-many-trades, master-of-none players who can play reasonable, but not lock-down defense. Definitely would help us to contain "the power forwards" for his shift, but not solve the problem. Well - I think Brogdon will prove our BEST player for those tasks and would like us to test 3-guard lineups a lot in anticipation...

            Kuzma is not much of a defender (although he is moving towards the Territory of Adequate.

            Bertans is NOT a defender whatsoever. His value is all in offense & mostly in 3-point shooting.

            Morrises are passable - no more.
            Last edited by PetPaima; 12-28-2019, 10:09 AM.

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            • #7
              Any trade should net us a greater player, based on our roster. That is, trading two 7s should net us a 9, because we have enough 7s. We should aim higher, imo, or not trade at all.
              • 8 likes

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              • #8
                Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                Here's my question: which of those mentioned in this thread (Kuzma, Bertans, Saric, etc.) truly fit the defensive four need we have?
                All of these players are horrible defenders...just horrible. Kuzma is surprising because he has the speed/athleticism to be better, but he is just bad.

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                • #9
                  That's why Draymond Green is the only name I've heard mentioned that fits the bill. Maybe some others can be named. What about Tristan Thomas? Would anybody like him for a year or two?
                  "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by imawhat View Post

                    All of these players are horrible defenders...just horrible. Kuzma is surprising because he has the speed/athleticism to be better, but he is just bad.
                    I wouldn't call Saric and no longer Kuzma either HORRIBLE defenders, but surely they are not earning stripes in thst end of the court.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                      That's why Draymond Green is the only name I've heard mentioned that fits the bill. Maybe some others can be named. What about Tristan Thomas? Would anybody like him for a year or two?
                      You are now looking for a player for a much bigger role than what I was speaking about.

                      You are looking for a starting power forward who would play 35 minutes of playoff game.
                      I would be relieved even to have a full-sized reserve for that spot capable of giving 15-20 minutes of bench time so that we could keep staggering the minutes of Sabo/Myles and not be forced to go small-ball for all that time.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PetPaima View Post

                        You are now looking for a player for a much bigger role than what I was speaking about.

                        You are looking for a starting power forward who would play 35 minutes of playoff game.
                        I would be relieved even to have a full-sized reserve for that spot capable of giving 15-20 minutes of bench time so that we could keep staggering the minutes of Sabo/Myles and not be forced to go small-ball for all that time.
                        I don't think we get Draymond without trading Myles.
                        "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post

                          I don't think we get Draymond without trading Myles.
                          Exactly.

                          So we are talking about two different things.

                          You are looking for a rather big re-make of our whole look. Sabonis to full-time center next to play-making defensive power forward in Draymond.

                          I have only been thinking about getting an alternative on bench to keep running a proper frontcourt at all times if we so wish. My proposals would not touch the starting line-up, but would take away a NEED for masquerading McBuckets/Justin/TJ Warren as power forwards. Of course, if situation is favorable for a small-ball unit we could still use them. However, having a NBA calibre bench power forward would take away a necessity of small-ball units.

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                          • #14
                            The Pacers need a specialist who is very athletic and just rebounds and defends and does not need to score other than a dunk.
                            Maybe look into the D League for that player. Most of the suggestions do little to inspire and improve much. Maybe one of the Morris brothers.
                            Who was the jumping jack for the Heat last night?
                            This player is only needed for a few minutes a game. Alize to me is slow footed and not athletic enough.
                            {o,o}
                            |)__)
                            -"-"-
                            • 2 likes

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                            • #15
                              We just need a fully healthy roster - which is a lot to ask for in this day and age in the NBA.

                              ​
                              "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.


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