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Is it time for we as Pacers fans (myself in particular) to turn the corner and change how we view what is a good team?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by I Love P View Post
    Iíve got an idea. How about trying to win the championship. Ya know, what weíre supposed to be chasing & playing for?

    This fanbase doesnít demand titles, thatís one of our problems
    I think we all do. And we have seen the Pacers close a couple times. But demanding one is really unrealistic. We are a small market team that super stars aren't coming to. Tanking doesn't guarantee drafting a superstar. Mid-season trades could always disrupt chemistry.

    I think the Pacers do what they can do to think outside the box. They do the whole team aproach. Put together a team that is deep and solid. For me, I like a competative team that has a chance every year vs swinging a dead chicken and going all in for 1 year with hopes of a championship followed by years of bad product. The Pacers aren't a bad product and fans should appreciate that. Frustrating at times but not bad.

    Comment


    • #32
      The Pacers, Spurs, and Jazz play very similar styles of ball and they had pretty good regular seasons. But when the opponent is shooting and hitting as many 3s as they are, it's hard to win. You have to hit plenty of 3s to advance in the playoffs.
      • Pacers shot 40 of 119 from 3 but only hit approx 34% of their shots. The Celts shot 47 of 118 hitting 40% of their 3s.
      • Spurs went 47 of 139 from 3 which is about 34%. The Nuggets hit 68 of 189 or 36% of their shots.
      • Jazz shot 47 of 179, which was a paltry 26%! The Rockets hit 77 of 221, 36.5%.

      The most ironic thing is that Reggie and the 2000 Pacers were probably the start of this trend. No one was shooting as many threes as they were back then. They shot 49 of 116 against the Lakers (42%), 46 of 116 against the Knicks (40%), and 45 of 120 against the Sixers (38%).

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

        And this post is right in line with today's game. Good for this poster that he seems like one of the satisfied fans. I mean that sincerely.

        But to me a free-flowing motion offense sounds more like ballet than it does basketball. Ball movement, player movement and shooting that 3, right? That's the goal. Gotta move, pass and shoot. I guess that's basketball but it's the goal they have in mind that's the problem. The idea is to keep passing and moving until you can get that open 3. Can't play deliberately, forceful or tricky. No, you have to be fast moving, passing and shooting. That's all that matters in the entire game. It may as well be a damn symphony. If I wanted to watch that I would go watch a show choir or something along those lines.
        If pace n space is a ballet, is 80's-90's ball not a boxing/MMA match? Is that much more interesting to folks than the ballet/symphony? I guess it's just a matter of perspective and/or personal preference, but is watching guys shoot midrange Js and drive in to the paint and getting bodyslammed that much more enjoyable than the aforementioned passing, looking for the open shot/player, drive and kick, etc of the modern NBA? I know a lot of people are nostalgic for the NBA of their youth, but I have a hard time conceiving of the product on the court being definitively better from one era to the next. Rather than worry about how things have changed, I personally enjoy watching the current team (Pacers) and players try to excel in real time.

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        • #34
          '
          Originally posted by Drew46229 View Post

          If pace n space is a ballet, is 80's-90's ball not a boxing/MMA match? Is that much more interesting to folks than the ballet/symphony? I guess it's just a matter of perspective and/or personal preference, but is watching guys shoot midrange Js and drive in to the paint and getting bodyslammed that much more enjoyable than the aforementioned passing, looking for the open shot/player, drive and kick, etc of the modern NBA? I know a lot of people are nostalgic for the NBA of their youth, but I have a hard time conceiving of the product on the court being definitively better from one era to the next. Rather than worry about how things have changed, I personally enjoy watching the current team (Pacers) and players try to excel in real time.
          90's NBA was by far more entertaining to watch. You had a 3 point game to spread the floor but it didn't dominate the game and we.had a physical interior game that has all but disappeared today. From my perspective it was a more complete game than soft wnba style game we're given now. I wish I.could believe It's cyclical but the only way I see the inside game returning would be if we have rule changes and the league will never implement rule changes that reduces scoring.
          .
          Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

          Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

          Comment


          • #35
            I'm okay with focusing more on offense than defense if we end up having Bojan Level perimeter defenders and Myles defending the rim. By Bojan-Level perimeter defenders; I mean having a 9 man rotation where the majority of the perimeter defenders at the 1 to 4 spots that really try on defense, are considered ( at least ) slightly above average perimeter defenders and are smart enough ( from a BBIQ POV ) to understand what needs to be done within the Team Defense to allow it to be considered at top 10 defense.

            Although I prefer that we try to be an elite Defensive team, I get that our offense will often suffer along with an increased slowdown in the offensive pace ( which doesn't fit well in today's NBA ). But I want to at least be an above average and competent perimeter defensive team that can "hold its own" against Teams that are heavily reliant on 3pt scoring for their offense.
            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by CableKC View Post
              I'm okay with focusing more on offense than defense if we end up having Bojan Level perimeter defenders and Myles defending the rim. By Bojan-Level perimeter defenders; I mean having a 9 man rotation where the majority of the perimeter defenders at the 1 to 4 spots that really try on defense, are considered ( at least ) slightly above average perimeter defenders and are smart enough ( from a BBIQ POV ) to understand what needs to be done within the Team Defense to allow it to be considered at top 10 defense.

              Although I prefer that we try to be an elite Defensive team, I get that our offense will often suffer along with an increased slowdown in the offensive pace ( which doesn't fit well in today's NBA ). But I want to at least be an above average and competent perimeter defensive team that can "hold its own" against Teams that are heavily reliant on 3pt scoring for their offense.
              It's possible. Milwaukee was #1 in Defensive rating and #4 on Offense. The Pacers may not have a Giannis on their team but they surely can do better than 18th on offense if they add some some more offense-oriented players. It's not like the Bucks have a lot of All-Star, max contract level players on their squad.

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              • #37
                Simply put, I just don't expect to compete in the East as long as Nate McMillan is our head coach. Two decades of being a good regular season coach and then getting bounced in the first round nearly every year and that isn't going to change. I don't get my hopes up.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post

                  It's possible. Milwaukee was #1 in Defensive rating and #4 on Offense. The Pacers may not have a Giannis on their team but they surely can do better than 18th on offense if they add some some more offense-oriented players. It's not like the Bucks have a lot of All-Star, max contract level players on their squad.
                  We've brought in more offense oriented players the past couple of year. Last year we brought in Tyreke and McDermott. They are both offense oriented and it didn't work. We drafted leaf and holiday who both seem to be more offense oriented, but leaf looks to not be working and we will see how Holiday develops. Compare our front office moves to the Bucks who Flipped Greg Monroe for Bledsoe which has worked out great for them. They developed brogdon, get the best out of lopez and made trades to bring in Mirotic and George hill. Mirotic hasn't been great but George Hill has really helped them this playoffs with Bledsoe struggling. My point in all this is we are finding players that we think can be good on offense and we are putting there defense liabilities to the side, but it just hasn't worked out for us. Are we to blame the front office for this, or does Nate not know how to coach a better offense?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Drew46229 View Post

                    If pace n space is a ballet, is 80's-90's ball not a boxing/MMA match? Is that much more interesting to folks than the ballet/symphony? I guess it's just a matter of perspective and/or personal preference, but is watching guys shoot midrange Js and drive in to the paint and getting bodyslammed that much more enjoyable than the aforementioned passing, looking for the open shot/player, drive and kick, etc of the modern NBA? I know a lot of people are nostalgic for the NBA of their youth, but I have a hard time conceiving of the product on the court being definitively better from one era to the next. Rather than worry about how things have changed, I personally enjoy watching the current team (Pacers) and players try to excel in real time.
                    If you want to call it nostalgia that's fine. I actually know it used to be a better game.

                    I attended my first game in 1969. The league did improve through the 80's and into the 90's and sometime around 2003, the wheels started falling off. That happened because the NBA changed the rules. They decided they wanted to increase scoring which meant offensive players could not be touched and 3 point shooting increasingly became the focus of the entire league. Did you know the average 3 point attempts per game has increased 8 consecutive years in a row since 2011...and is exactly double what it was in 2006?

                    These changes reduced the types of players who could add to the game and has put enormous value on those that can shoot 3 pointers. Yes, players pass the ball and dribble some, but it's essentially become a game of H-O-R-S-E. Much less diverse and therefore less interesting. In the past, the entire basketball floor was used, not just beyond the 3. Kareem, Mark Aguirre, Bernard King, Patrick Ewing, Vinnie Johnson and a slew of other talented and incredibly creative players who made their living inside the 3 point line. It's a shame those days are over because it added so much to the game.

                    In addition, the non-3-point shooting percentage has dropped precipitously because guys don't have that skill anymore. Bigs in today's game look like clowns out there compared to the highly skilled bigs we saw in Hakeem Olajuwon and many more. You look at Joel Embiid and he's a bit of a throwback. But while he is talented, he's actually not that refined. Hakeem would absolutely destroy him as would a number of other bigs.

                    ...and through all this the scoring has become easier. The average PPG of 111.2 this last season is the highest in 48 years...back when players were not even playing defense. Today they play defense OK but only in the playoffs. So most of the year is fake.


                    Finally, there is obviously much less effort during the regular season. Guys take many days off compared to past years. Players hardly ever buy into "team" and they're just looking for their next contract. As a result, games are fake competition in the regular season....and the Pacers are a good example. They got their @sses handed to them when Boston actually tried....smh.

                    oh, ps. Pushing gambling can only make the league worse.
                    Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
                      '

                      90's NBA was by far more entertaining to watch. You had a 3 point game to spread the floor but it didn't dominate the game and we.had a physical interior game that has all but disappeared today. From my perspective it was a more complete game than soft wnba style game we're given now. I wish I.could believe It's cyclical but the only way I see the inside game returning would be if we have rule changes and the league will never implement rule changes that reduces scoring.
                      .
                      This and when you say "more complete game" you hit the nail on the head. I actually like the 3. The issue is that I like a lot more about the game than that but we don't get to see it anymore.

                      I also agree they are really selling to the lowest common denominator in fans. Fans like scoring. They like slam dunks (i.e. no defense in the lane). They like 3 point shots (all sexy, right). Defense is freaking boring.

                      They've even reduced the shot clock from 24 to 14 seconds after an offensive board...again catering to people with no attention span...no intellect. Anyway, that's today's game and why I watched only part of the playoffs and hardly any of the regular season.

                      Edit: Just to respond too Peck's assertion. I would say peoople can change what they accept if they want to do that. I'm not with that group. I'm not mad or anything. I still watch the steaming pile once in awhile. But I'm no longer a big fan. Those days are over as unless the NBA gets back to being a competitive sports league again and the rules shift back to a brand of basketball I can spend a couple hours watching. In the meantime, I just do other things with that time. Peace out...
                      Last edited by BlueNGold; 05-24-2019, 08:50 PM.
                      Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Drew46229 View Post

                        If pace n space is a ballet, is 80's-90's ball not a boxing/MMA match? Is that much more interesting to folks than the ballet/symphony? I guess it's just a matter of perspective and/or personal preference, but is watching guys shoot midrange Js and drive in to the paint and getting bodyslammed that much more enjoyable than the aforementioned passing, looking for the open shot/player, drive and kick, etc of the modern NBA? I know a lot of people are nostalgic for the NBA of their youth, but I have a hard time conceiving of the product on the court being definitively better from one era to the next. Rather than worry about how things have changed, I personally enjoy watching the current team (Pacers) and players try to excel in real time.
                        You are being very generous in describing todays game as ball movement, passing, finding the open man and not calling it what it is....an endless string of pick and roll with no defense being played what so ever and chucking up bad shots constantly. The Warriors are fun to watch. Noone else is good at this crap and would get murdered by all those unskilled players of the 90s in an old school basketball game with defense as a part of the equation. Bodyslammed? Thats a gross exaggeration.....but yes that was much better than this. You mean like pro wrestling? One of the most popular sports worldwide in human history?

                        People enjoy resistence. They enjoy a competition. They enjoy two guys going at it. Thats why they like hard fouls and actual defense being played. And yes MMA is ridiculously popular and ballet is not for that reason. Who do you know that is actually into ballet? Seriously. Some old women enjoy it I guess, but that's not the demographic the NBA is after.

                        It's not about "the NBA of our youth" it's about the constant ****ing with something that there was nothing wrong with in the first place for what amounts to a temporary financial windfall for a few individuals in the sport. They've done it to all major sports. "We need more offense" "we need better flow" "we need to eliminate the three point shot" "we need to make it safer" Why? 100 years of sustained growth isn't good enough? Stop screwing up our sports. Please.
                        "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          For the youngsters, in case you've never seen a real basketball player:

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poHEMLd9Z4g

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ls9qFGsDg
                          Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            As far as the thread, I'm actually woth Unclebuck here.....defense still rules the day. The Warriors win because of their defense as much as their offense and the good defensive teams dominated the playoffs.

                            We need to just get better players. More dynamic offensive players and better individual defenders. How well we mix the two will determine our level of success. We also need to get more athletic.
                            "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

                            Comment


                            • #44


                              This

                              Edit: Just to respond too Peck's assertion. I would say peoople can change what they accept if they want to do that. I'm not with that group. I'm not mad or anything. I still watch the steaming pile once in awhile. But I'm no longer a big fan. Those days are over as unless the NBA gets back to being a competitive sports league again and the rules shift back to a brand of basketball I can spend a couple hours watching. In the meantime, I just do other things with that time. Peace out...[/QUOTE]


                              I'd say we're in about the same place where the NBA is concerned. I used to live for the NBA season but it's been a slow natural process that it's became unimportant to me since I.find the game so much less entertaining. The good thing is there's a lot of things more important in life than basketball.
                              Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

                              Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by BenR1990 View Post
                                Simply put, I just don't expect to compete in the East as long as Nate McMillan is our head coach. Two decades of being a good regular season coach and then getting bounced in the first round nearly every year and that isn't going to change. I don't get my hopes up.
                                I feel ya, but the Pacers have been pretty damn creative in their coaching hires. Zeke, Bird, Frank, all first timers.

                                Pritchard's the problem until he shows me different, dude is ALL about who he already knows and likes.

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