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Is it time for we as Pacers fans (myself in particular) to turn the corner and change how we view what is a good team?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
    The pace and space modern NBA style doesn't bother me at all. I like up tempo. I like lots of ball movement. I like guys working to get open looks. It's fun.

    What isn't fun? An NBA where offensive players are rewarded with free throws for creating contact. A league where any attempt to play defense is a foul. Who wants to watch plays where we literally see defensive players trying to get out of the way because they're trying to not foul? Who wants to see the action stop for an "and one" because a player had his arm lightly grazed as he makes a completely unimpeded layup. How many times per game do we see players doing wholly unnatural basketball things just to draw a foul?

    For the love of basketball, they need to fix this. Something to the effect of: "A defensive foul occurs when forceful contact is made by the defensive player and that contact clearly disrupts an offensive player's basketball move. A defensive player can not be called for a foul if contact is initiated by the offensive player."
    What is MUCH worse about that is certain players are given that free throw where any other player does not get the same consideration
    Last edited by owl; 05-23-2019, 01:15 PM.
    {o,o}
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    • #17
      Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

      I brought this point up during the season in a thread I created about why the Pacers have never had a top-5 scorer (or a scorer who has averaged over 20 points per game for their career) in the NBA. I think the focus on defense vs offense has been off-kilter since Larry Bird stopped coaching the team.

      I heard Reggie Miller the other night mention that his Finals team was the originator of the spread offense and after looking at the numbers and the way they played, he's probably right. The Pacers 2000 Finals team was 1st in Offensive rating, 4th in points per game, 1st in effFG%, 4th in 3pt attempt, and 1st in 3p%. The pace still wasn't that fast in 2000 but the Pacers played with lots of spacing. Larry Bird had Smits shooting jumpers out to 20 feet and Big Smooth Sam Perkins raining in 3s from the Center position. Mark Jackson shot 40% from 3 that season and with Jalen, Reggie, Chris Mullin, and Travis Best launching them they were hard to beat!

      The Pacers need to get back to that way of playing. They added several guys that can hit the 3 the last 2 seasons so that shows that KP wants them to play that way but the team didn't fully commit to that style of offense. Nate McMillan often talked about wanting to play with more pace but you never heard him say he wants the team to shoot more 3s. I think he's still stuck in the 90s way of viewing offensive efficiency. He needs to adapt and the Pacers must shoot more 3s when they're open than they did last year.

      Getting players that can shoot threes and be a threat to put it on the floor would be a good strategy this offseason. This is why I've been wanting guys like Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Jrue Holiday, Bradley Beal, or Kemba Walker. They can play the new style of the NBA and provide "pace and space". Fringe all-star players like Mirotic and Bogey fit in well. The Pacers currently have 2 young players that they could fit this style of play in Aaron Holiday and Edmond Sumner.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by owl View Post

        What is MUCH worse about that is certain players are giving that free throw where any other player does not get the same considertion
        Superstar treatment has always been a thing, and this would largely fix it. We should all know what a foul is. The reason we see guys whining is because half the time incidental, and irrelevant, contact is called a foul and half the time it isn't. There's incidental contact on every play. So, it's basically just tup to the whim of the ref when to call a foul. That's why someone is going to complain every time they don't call it, and every time they do.

        Just make a foul a foul. If a guy gets knocked down, hit hard, raked across the arm, we all know it's a foul. Eliminate the minor contact fouls and so many of the problems with the current game are fixed.

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        • #19
          Video of the 3 guys I'm proposing to have on the team:


          Mirotic on D






          Rubio playing D (he is one of the best)





          Bogdanovic vs Lebron




          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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          • #20
            Mirotic is an underrated defender for sure.

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            • #21
              You need two dynamic 20+ point scorers and fill the rest with 3&D guys. You've got a shot at the conference finals (at least) and potential contention every year. That's why it's imperative to find an elite scorer to play with Dipo. Turner anchors the D. You fill the rest with long athletes that can hit wide open 3's. We're set.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                I suppose maybe I have a different take. And I would suggest I probably watch as much Non-Pacers NBA basketball as anyone.

                Defense still wins. I consider the Raptors and Bucks as the two best defensive teams in the east this season. If you doubt what I am saying, go back and carefully watch without emotion the Pacers defend the Celtics in this years playoffs and then watch the Bucks defend the same Celtics team. Bucks defense without regard to the Bucks offense - the Bucks defense is better than the Pacers. They certainly defended the Celtics better.

                The Warriors especially during the playoffs are also one of the best defensive teams. Klay Thompson, Drammond Green, Igudoula, and Durant are all better defenders individually and certainly as a group than the current Pacers.

                So I contend the Pacers need a significant upgrade defensively and offensively. I will freely admit the Pacers probably max out their defense as much as any NBA team in the regular season - but that is mostly with effort, and chemistry - pacers IMO are not nearly as good defensively as the Warriors, Bucks or Raptors. These other teams have a higher gear defenvisly than do the Pacers.

                So the point is if you are KP and you put forth a plan that says OK we are going to sacrifice defense in order to update our offense - I think that will not be a net plus. The really top NBA teams have players that are good offensively and defensively - that is what the Pacers must look for.

                So to answer your question Peck, no I will not change the way I view what a good team is, but I don't think it has changed at all.
                Using Milwaukee and Toronto as comparisons is almost as useful as using Golden State & Houston. What do all of these teams have in common? They all have at least one MVP caliber player on their team and in G.S. case they have two.

                You can play any style of basketball whenever you have all world wings on your team. The Pacers do not have that. I love Victor but he just is not in that conversation.

                Is Kris Middleton a better defender than Bojan Bogdanovic? Not really. But he looks a lot better because he is playing next to the likely league MVP. Is Lopez really any better than Turner? In my opinion he's not even as good as Turner. Bledsoe is a great defender I will give you that.

                I don't advocate being a bad defensive team, not even close. I'm just wondering if maybe we don't need to shift to having an all world offense that can defend instead of an all world defense that can on occasion score.


                Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                • #23
                  Another thing to look for are players who play well in a free-flowing motion offense. One way to gauge this is by using the Players Speed and Distance averages on NBA.com.

                  Players like Steph Curry are great but it's not just because he can shoot lights out. It's also because he plays at a speed that very few players in the NBA play out. He is constantly in motion like Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Rip Hamilton, and Steve Nash before him. He was mentored by Steve Nash so it makes sense. Other players very close to his speed and miles covered a game are Buddy Heild, Paul George, CJ McCollum, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Richardson. Of the players who will be available this Summer, Bradley Beal, Jrue Holiday, Tobias Harris, Kemba Walker, and Jimmy Butler ranked in the top 20 players in the league at speed and distance averages per game. Pacers need to get one of them.

                  The Pacers didn't have a single player in the top 50 players in distance traveled. Victor would've if he wasn't hurt because he plays at a great pace. Corey Joseph was pretty fast and was in the top 20 for speed but he's not a play maker with the ball in his hands so it only really helps on the defensive end. The Pacers need players that can run, catch, and shoot. Ricky Rubio's name has come up a few times in this thread and he is a decent player but he is slooooooow. He's too slow for the modern NBA and that is why Utah is looking for an upgrade. Derrick Favors plays at a faster speed than Ricky Rubio who came in at 111th in the rankings. https://stats.nba.com/players/speed-...r=1&CF=GP*G*50

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                  • #24
                    The league has taken some time to get where it is today. From my view, the game is simply less interesting compared to how it was 20 years ago primarily because it's less diverse in the types of skills players could bring to the game.

                    For example, and this isn't the big one, the game is not as physical because of the rule changes maybe 15 years ago. That eliminated the types of players who could influence the game with physical strength and toughness and size.

                    The bigger issue is the 3 pointer and people rarely put their finger on the issue but I am about to do that. If you have a team full of players who are the best at getting open and making 3 point shots, you have an enormous advantage and just about insurmountable against most teams in the league. That means that one particular skill of many in the game carries a tremendous amount of weight. I know Golden State has a great defense but that dominating 3 point barrage is why they could have gone one year without a loss. It was insurmountable and the only thing holding them back from continually winning is their culture isn't that good.

                    The main reason for this is really a matter of mathematics. If your team's starters average close to 40% from the floor there's really no point in shooting any mid range or post-ups with the exception of keeping the defense honest. That reduces the diversity we used to enjoy watching in the game many years ago. It's just less interesting because less things can really happen. I know the players are amazingly athletic but it's also less cerebral when you already know what they would most want to do to score because mathematically it is the right way to win right now.

                    We've also seen the most talented players like LeBron able to get to the rim with ease over the last decade because there's no size in there.
                    Can't have size because the guys have to be gazelle's to guard that darn perimeter.

                    I will just leave it at that. It's not a good game at all anymore and quite frankly I barely follow it these days. You can't even build a team in keep them in your city anymore. It's just a trash league, quite frankly.
                    Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post
                      Another thing to look for are players who play well in a free-flowing motion offense. One way to gauge this is by using the Players Speed and Distance averages on NBA.com.

                      Players like Steph Curry are great but it's not just because he can shoot lights out. It's also because he plays at a speed that very few players in the NBA play out...
                      And this post is right in line with today's game. Good for this poster that he seems like one of the satisfied fans. I mean that sincerely.

                      But to me a free-flowing motion offense sounds more like ballet than it does basketball. Ball movement, player movement and shooting that 3, right? That's the goal. Gotta move, pass and shoot. I guess that's basketball but it's the goal they have in mind that's the problem. The idea is to keep passing and moving until you can get that open 3. Can't play deliberately, forceful or tricky. No, you have to be fast moving, passing and shooting. That's all that matters in the entire game. It may as well be a damn symphony. If I wanted to watch that I would go watch a show choir or something along those lines.
                      Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

                        And this post is right in line with today's game. Good for this poster that he seems like one of the satisfied fans. I mean that sincerely.

                        But to me a free-flowing motion offense sounds more like ballet than it does basketball. Ball movement, player movement and shooting that 3, right? That's the goal. Gotta move, pass and shoot. I guess that's basketball but it's the goal they have in mind that's the problem. The idea is to keep passing and moving until you can get that open 3. Can't play deliberately, forceful or tricky. No, you have to be fast moving, passing and shooting. That's all that matters in the entire game. It may as well be a damn symphony. If I wanted to watch that I would go watch a show choir or something along those lines.
                        I enjoy NBA basketball today. There are many great games every season, tonight’s game between the Raptors and Bucks for example. I’ve enjoyed watching each era of basketball over the past 30 + years. The 80s featured a lot of run-and-gun offenses. The 90s Bad Boys era slowed Basketball down and brought in a lot of ISO basketball that continued into the new millennium. Now things are opening up again and playing with pace and space is the best way to win. Things change about every 10 years. If you don’t like change, never watch the NBA.

                        Good luck trying to find a sport that never changes from your favorite style of play. Maybe you can watch horseshoe competitions or high stakes poker, or something.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post

                          And this post is right in line with today's game. Good for this poster that he seems like one of the satisfied fans. I mean that sincerely.

                          But to me a free-flowing motion offense sounds more like ballet than it does basketball. Ball movement, player movement and shooting that 3, right? That's the goal. Gotta move, pass and shoot. I guess that's basketball but it's the goal they have in mind that's the problem. The idea is to keep passing and moving until you can get that open 3. Can't play deliberately, forceful or tricky. No, you have to be fast moving, passing and shooting. That's all that matters in the entire game. It may as well be a damn symphony. If I wanted to watch that I would go watch a show choir or something along those lines.
                          You would love the Big3
                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                          • #28
                            Defense travels. Particularly in the playoffs.

                            Teams without an MVP level player or a couple of top 15-20 type players need to prioritize defense. Doesnít mean said team canít run a good system on offense that takes advantage of their players strengths and gets them in positions to succeed. Current Pacer staff canít seem to figure this out....


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                            • #29
                              Iíve got an idea. How about trying to win the championship. Ya know, what weíre supposed to be chasing & playing for?

                              This fanbase doesnít demand titles, thatís one of our problems

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                              • #30
                                I may be one of the very few, but I like this era of basketball. My only knock on it is that you aren't allowed to play physical defense without being called for a foul. I would rather watch 7 footers that can shoot and handle the ball, then to have to watch 7 footers like Bill Wennington that made a career out of just taking up space on the inside.

                                To answer Pecks questions I think the pacers have made attempts to change their style of play. Our front office has just not been that good in identifying players that can contribute, and we have not been that good at developing our young talent. our recent signings and draft picks tell me the pacers want to play a run and gun style and they care less about defense. Tyreke, Doug, Leaf are all scorers that play very little defense. For some reason our front office has just missed on all are signings and draft picks. We've also missed out on acquiring the young big wings that can shoot the 3 and defend 4 positions that all the other playoff teams have, but for some reason the pacers don't. The Bucks 3 best players are non lottery picks that they developed. The raptors second best player was picked in the 20's 3 years ago. Our front office just has to stop missing on players through draft and free agency and we have to develop our own.

                                Pacers should make a trade for Josh Jackson big 3D wing with potential.

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