Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Ideal summer.....to you

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by BillS View Post
    You know, for a team that hasn't done anything but sucked since the long-ago glory days of Sam Nassi (may his name be praised as a great owner) all so the current owner who bullies the city and the fans and clearly cares nothing for anyone but himself can laugh with evil glee as he feasts on the billions of dollar bills he swims in from bilking everyone in the state, you all spend an awful lot of time fretting over it. Seems to me you should cut your losses and just be Colts fans, since the Irsays don't take a dime from the city, always make the right moves, and provide so much to the community while being humble local businessmen.
    Colts also take subsidies from the government and I don't agree with that either


    Either way I think is obvious that one team has a goal of just been decent so they can keep collecting those checks while the other team is always aiming to get to the finals (super bowl).


    Edit: but lets be clear, both teams are making a killing here.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 05-01-2019, 12:27 PM.
    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by BillS View Post
      You know, for a team that hasn't done anything but sucked since the long-ago glory days of Sam Nassi (may his name be praised as a great owner) all so the current owner who bullies the city and the fans and clearly cares nothing for anyone but himself can laugh with evil glee as he feasts on the billions of dollar bills he swims in from bilking everyone in the state, you all spend an awful lot of time fretting over it. Seems to me you should cut your losses and just be Colts fans, since the Irsays don't take a dime from the city, always make the right moves, and provide so much to the community while being humble local businessmen.
      Is he gonna stop picking my pocket in return?

      ​Of course not.
      "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

      Comment


      • #63
        ]
        A couple of things to address here. You covered some - bringing it up doesn't mean I think you aren't saying it. I want to be complete so certain people might find it more difficult to take things out of context.

        First, I think we agree that you can't both go after good players in trades and FA and also step back for a year. You are essentially trying to sell players on coming to your team to rest for a year or to stay with your team after you refused to use them so you could (quote/unquote) develop your other assets. It's hard enough to convince players to come here if they think we're trying to win something. Convincing them to come here to help us take a season off won't work. But not getting those FAs or keeping those traded players will be the fault of an incompetent front office.

        I could go point by point with you however I think its fair to say we basically agree on a lot of things but disagree on others.

        That being said the one thing I do want to go over is this part. We are approaching this summer with different expectations IMO and here is where my questions arise.

        1. What free agents do you believe are going to come here under the current circumstance? By that I mean let's say they know Victor will be back, the pacers sign a good portion of their veteran presence (Thad, Bojan, Joseph & Collison) and still have Nate as the coach and let's just assume our draft pick is expected to be a decent player (neither a bust nor a star). Here is a list of free agents, I want you to go through them and tell me in all honesty who you think will come here and allow us to beat Boston, Philly, Milwaukee or Toronto?
        https://www.nba.com/freeagents/2019/tracker

        You must be working under the assumption that you are going to bring in a needle mover via free agency, not impossible btw but well let's just say I'm not optimistic about it. So here is what I'll say, if for some reason the Pacers can bring in a needle mover then I'll freely take my take a step back plan and throw it out the window. By needle mover I'm talking quality along the lines of Jimmy Butler, Kemba Walker, or other all-star caliber players. Not more complimentary players like I suspect will be in line like DeMarre Carroll or the like.

        2. Okay we both agree we don't want a decade of crap. I'm with you there. However I equally do not want a decade of "well we fought tough and we'll get them next year" as we watch Victor fade away as he ages and does not make it out of the first round. For every season for us to say well we just didn't have the talent to compete or we didn't have that generational player. I'm telling you Victor, just like Paul George, will eventually get tired of losing in the first round and knowing that the Pacers can not (for whatever reason) either trade for, draft or sign in free agency another star player to play with him and by the time he is 30 (which I think is in 4 years) he is going to ask out or not re-sign here.

        So with that in mind since you don't like my idea. Then let's hear yours. I'll just make it a simple question. How do we get past the first round in a conference that now features 4 teams who have more talent than we do across the board on three of those teams and one team who has a generational talent. I won't even make you consider if the Knicks form a super team or Zion gets drafted by Atlanta. However do keep this in mind, I know you hate when people say this but here goes, the Nets were not that far behind us and using your theory from every year they very well could improve internally as their back court which is dynamic is young and still improving.


        3. Taking your idea of how to make the team next season with let's say a mostly healthy Victor for the regular season and fully healed by the playoffs. Where do you see this team finishing when it is all said and done? In other words how far do they advance.




        I may very well have not made my step back program very clear so I want to make sure you understand it. When i say take a step back it does not necessarily even mean not competing this year. It simply means that Nate has to be instructed that his job is secure if he develops younger talent and not play the veterans every single game for massive minutes in the months of December, January and February just to eek out 3-4 wins. It means if Aaron Holiday makes the exact same mistakes that Cory Joseph makes that Aaron is not banished to the bench for the next three games. Where my plan goes though KP would make it so that Nate does not have the option to lean on his crutch of Thad Young. Is it risky? Yes. Would it just be safer to bring back all of the same and replace Tyreke with whoever and pray to God Victor is at least still 90% of what he was? You bet. That team will make the playoffs, albeit a 6-7 seed and be out in the first round again. Then what? The problem is we will now have these players on at least 2 year deals, most likely 3 in both Thad and Bojan's case. We do not currently have any dynamic player in the pipeline, I'm sorry but Turner is just never going to be an overall dynamic player and Holiday might be your only current hope for that type of player but even he is doubtful. So then for the next 2-3 years more of the same. Now of course once again I am using my assumption you don't get that impact player in free agency, if you do then by all means see what you can do in the here and now.


        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

        Comment


        • #64
          IMO, the best chance the Pacers have to win a championship is to continue the "Moneyball" strategy. Build a team of players that will work together and be a team. Have the deepest bench in the NBA.

          Comment


          • #65
            When you set the bar as simply reaching the playoffs, then you all but toss out the following steps to get to a championship because you've already reached your goal. Anything further could be deemed a risk.

            When you set your goal as a championship, then you can take risks along the way since setbacks come with the territory. Not making the playoffs could be a temporary, short term setback, in a longer term strategy. Taking the highest risks typically come with reaching for the highest rewards.

            Truthfully, being a frequent playoff attendee isn't all that hard. Being there as someone that matters is much tougher.
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

            -John Wooden

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              1. What free agents do you believe are going to come here under the current circumstance? By that I mean let's say they know Victor will be back, the pacers sign a good portion of their veteran presence (Thad, Bojan, Joseph & Collison) and still have Nate as the coach and let's just assume our draft pick is expected to be a decent player (neither a bust nor a star). Here is a list of free agents, I want you to go through them and tell me in all honesty who you think will come here and allow us to beat Boston, Philly, Milwaukee or Toronto?
              https://www.nba.com/freeagents/2019/tracker
              I disagree with part of your premise. I don't think we should bring Collison and CoJo back. I do want to bring Bojan back. I'd be OK with Thad but I'd rather see him at a bench contract for a bench position.

              I also don't care for Nate's coaching, but that seems not to be the topic of discussion and I agree it would take a lot to fire him after losing Dipo (which is a shame because I think next year would be the perfect year to start a new coach). If we're lucky maybe we can get an offensive coordinator...

              I admit I am terrible putting names to positions because I just don't follow other teams when they are not playing us. I also have yet to see ANYONE around here able to produce the name of a FA other than a super top tier player like Kyrie or Durant whom everyone would agree could come here and allow us to beat the top teams in the league immediately. All I can look for is how we improve on what happened this year. What I want is an upgrade at point, someone aggressive passing the ball and following up on plays and shots but who has to be respected shooting. Understanding that this will be quoted by people saying "they'll never come to Indy because no FA has ever come to Indy", I think we have as good a shot as anyone of getting Kemba (who I'm OK with if we don't add another guy who needs the ball exclusively along with him) as anyone. I'd make the pitch to Beverley (who probably stays with his team but you might as well pitch it). I'd bet anyone even money we'll end up with Lance back, to the great joy of many seeing as how he's lead so many teams to championships as their missing piece.

              The thing we have to understand is that the work of getting an FA interested doesn't start July 1 at 00:01. It will be going on indirectly from now until then, and there are perfectly legal ways to find out from an agent whether the client has any interest at all before the offer period opens. The saw about the fast guy you sign is the guy you must have wanted only is true if everyone operates in a vacuum.

              Let's just say I trust KP's relationships with agents (and other teams) far better than I trusted Birds'.

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              You must be working under the assumption that you are going to bring in a needle mover via free agency, not impossible btw but well let's just say I'm not optimistic about it. So here is what I'll say, if for some reason the Pacers can bring in a needle mover then I'll freely take my take a step back plan and throw it out the window. By needle mover I'm talking quality along the lines of Jimmy Butler, Kemba Walker, or other all-star caliber players. Not more complimentary players like I suspect will be in line like DeMarre Carroll or the like.
              And I guess I would find that hard to disagree with, because a needle-mover isn't going to do so next year unless it is a player already better than Dipo and we're likely not going to be able to bid enough for one of those. I would not call it a "step back" if we improve the makeup of our team over how Tyreke worked out for us, for instance, and you can see below how I feel about young guys and minutes allocation.

              I think we're more likely to need to do trades, and that will mean taking on a bad contract to allow us to also get someone not working out elsewhere.

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              2. Okay we both agree we don't want a decade of crap. I'm with you there. However I equally do not want a decade of "well we fought tough and we'll get them next year" as we watch Victor fade away as he ages and does not make it out of the first round. For every season for us to say well we just didn't have the talent to compete or we didn't have that generational player. I'm telling you Victor, just like Paul George, will eventually get tired of losing in the first round and knowing that the Pacers can not (for whatever reason) either trade for, draft or sign in free agency another star player to play with him and by the time he is 30 (which I think is in 4 years) he is going to ask out or not re-sign here.
              You got a way to guarantee a generational player? I'm all ears. I just think doing it through roster management, a winning culture, and building lots of complementary players to make a strong trade or attract that final piece is more fun to fail with than losing constantly and dumping guys just as they get good to churn the mix and yet still fail - and I think losing/churning actually has a much lower chance. Get Philly to the ECFs more than twice since they started The Process and before their next rebuild and I might be able to be convinced otherwise.

              I still don't buy Philadelphia as this juggernaut for the future For a team as loaded as they are they can't quite figure out how to use their talent, and that doesn't come automatically. I think they have flaws and will get exposed now and in the future - winning one away game in round 2 is not a championship indicator at this point. Toronto with Kawhi - well, yeah, if he stays, but Toronto is pretty good at wasting players. Boston - does Hayward continue to be healthy? Does Kyrie feel enough like The Man if Stevens moves the ball into other hands from time to time? Milwaukee has Giannis but they have been somewhat unsuccessful at building around him prior to now - is this a dynasty or just some players coming together for once?

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              So with that in mind since you don't like my idea. Then let's hear yours. I'll just make it a simple question. How do we get past the first round in a conference that now features 4 teams who have more talent than we do across the board on three of those teams and one team who has a generational talent. I won't even make you consider if the Knicks form a super team or Zion gets drafted by Atlanta. However do keep this in mind, I know you hate when people say this but here goes, the Nets were not that far behind us and using your theory from every year they very well could improve internally as their back court which is dynamic is young and still improving.
              And the Pacers have had the least amount of talent in the East according to the pundits and forum members since the RATS days. When we've gone to the ECFs it has been in spite of our talent and because other teams were stupid or didn't take us seriously. We never actually beat anyone, we get lucky or get overlooked. How does that change?

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              3. Taking your idea of how to make the team next season with let's say a mostly healthy Victor for the regular season and fully healed by the playoffs. Where do you see this team finishing when it is all said and done? In other words how far do they advance.
              Who knows? Seriously. With a healthy Vic I think we easily would have gotten to the second round this year, not least because we hold 3rd seed (yeah, yeah, but the first part of the season was So Easy; well I think we forgot how good Vic actually was once he went down. I mean we have people around here complaining that we beat teams by too much!) but because there's no let-down and running out of steam. So next year could we do the same with improvement at PG and moving some younger guys to earlier slots off the bench? I think so, but I'd have to see what happens with the overall offense and not just the skills of the players - especially since we could get Steph in and he'd end up shooting a career-worst 25% from 3 for the season.

              Originally posted by Peck View Post
              I may very well have not made my step back program very clear so I want to make sure you understand it. When i say take a step back it does not necessarily even mean not competing this year. It simply means that Nate has to be instructed that his job is secure if he develops younger talent and not play the veterans every single game for massive minutes in the months of December, January and February just to eek out 3-4 wins. It means if Aaron Holiday makes the exact same mistakes that Cory Joseph makes that Aaron is not banished to the bench for the next three games. Where my plan goes though KP would make it so that Nate does not have the option to lean on his crutch of Thad Young. Is it risky? Yes. Would it just be safer to bring back all of the same and replace Tyreke with whoever and pray to God Victor is at least still 90% of what he was? You bet. That team will make the playoffs, albeit a 6-7 seed and be out in the first round again. Then what? The problem is we will now have these players on at least 2 year deals, most likely 3 in both Thad and Bojan's case. We do not currently have any dynamic player in the pipeline, I'm sorry but Turner is just never going to be an overall dynamic player and Holiday might be your only current hope for that type of player but even he is doubtful. So then for the next 2-3 years more of the same. Now of course once again I am using my assumption you don't get that impact player in free agency, if you do then by all means see what you can do in the here and now.
              I believe I saw that our starters played fewer minutes than most teams' starters - that may have been skewed by pre-injury minutes, but it certainly seems to show that at least before the loss of Vic we were not somehow the only team in the league not to give the bench run time.

              No coach other than the guy rebuilding the team from scratch including a phenom from the draft has ever been told by fans he plays the young guys enough.

              I am not sure why my young player floor time philosophy seems so at odds with everyone else's, but here it is again:

              1) Floor time is not the only way young players develop.
              2) Being allowed to play through mistakes does not automatically mean players stop making those mistakes.
              3) A disagreement on whether the coach is correct that a vet is better than someone behind him in the rotation is not always the same as "refusing to play the young guys".
              4) A coach needs to have a reasonable expectation of what the results will be before he puts a lineup on the floor. "Put the young guys in and see what happens" is something you do in pre-season, summer league, and scrimmages. It isn't something you do in a playoff game. This is because a decent coach probably already KNOWS what will happen, even if the fans do not. Which leads me to
              5) A coach sees these players a lot more than the few minutes the fans see them on the floor. With very few exceptions a coach is not going to be surprised because the guy who can't cut it in a scrimmage is a savior on the floor in a Real Game.

              Players, especially young ones, need to earn their time on the floor. If we disagree with the choices the coach is making of who has so earned the time, then fine, that's on the coach (and I've had my share of disagreements with rotations in the past). But knowingly playing young players who are not better than someone who has been (or should be) ahead of them in the rotation tells the whole rest of the team that you don't get your playing time by being good, you get it by having potential - so if you are old enough to be beyond potential then it's time to find another team (and don't bother playing hard while you're still on this one, even in practice, because it doesn't matter). Just to be clear, we're not talking about only an extra minute or so per game for those "young guys", because if that's all it takes to turn them from rookies to studs we're clearly playing the wrong guys anyway.

              The idea that we should pick a certain number of games it is OK to lose because (quote/unquote) it may help us in the future more than winning some meaningless games is just micro-tanking. Those games ARE meaningful to the fans and to the culture of the team. Early in the season trying some lineups and giving players flexibility is fine, but if the team comes out of the gate on the run you don't pull back on the reins and CAUSE setbacks on purpose. If you've got a Duncan or a LeBron and know that any game those guys are in they probably win then it's probably fine strategically, but the fans get mighty pissed off to come to a loss because the best player was sitting down. If you DON'T have those guys then what happens if you just keep losing? I suspect for a lot of people the answer is to just go ahead and tank, then.
              BillS

              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                Where my plan goes though KP would make it so that Nate does not have the option to lean on his crutch of Thad Young.
                I didn't say it in the main message (so many words ) but this is something I agree with. If the FO has a different vison of who should play, then remove the players you disagree with the coach should be ahead of them. Bear in mind that this could cause other damage (I would bet you big bucks that without Thad this team totally falls apart after Dipo goes down. Again, recognizing that for some this would be the best of all possible worlds because it would be a tank...)
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Pritchard today: "I remember talking to Herb Simmons (after Dipos injury) and Simmons said I want to stay competitive I want to make playoffs" this is shocking I tell ya
                  @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I'll just repost my response to Peck's thread. This is pretty much exactly what I think they should do.

                    Originally posted by Peck View Post

                    Then there is another way to go and believe me when I say this, it's going to be painful and unpopular. But you let the majority of your free agents walk, you might keep Bojan depending on length of contract and depending on what you can sign in free agency you might keep either Collison or Joseph (I don't really care which). But then you go and sign a couple of young players who have the ability to play above the rim, have length and have decent height for their position. You then pick between Sabonis and Turner and you trade the other. This will net you either a very good wing player or you potentially could get a top 5 protected draft pick (that might be high but I'm thinking you could get either an 8-10 pick.
                    I think there is a half measure between your two options I'd be totally fine with. I don't support any blatant tank strategy at this point and given the history of the organization, it ain't gonna happen. You seem to be advocating a quasi-tank here and I don't agree with that. Vic is in his prime now, a tank strategy just won't time out well for the team as currently constructed. I do agree that resigning everyone is totally spinning the tires and would be even worse, however.

                    The team should resign Bojan and that's it, let everyone else walk (maybe keep Matthews for depth but ONLY if he comes cheap). Then you look at NOT EXACTLY free agency, but using your cap space to facilitate a trade. This has always been the smarter plan and I'll never understand why people always freak out at the deadline, it seems like the real action usually happens in the offseason.

                    I also see this Turner vs. Sabonis narrative continue to be pushed and while that may come to a head eventually, I think you could stand to let that ride for a little longer. Let Thad walk and see increased playing time for the two together, even if it doesn't work out, it deserves more of a look. (Take a step back to ultimately take a step forward, I think this makes more sense than just dumping one of them in a trade prematurely)

                    Look to pool your assets and make a play for ONE major upgrade at a key position via trade. You're letting one starting forward and two Point Guards walk, conceivably. I think it should be a point guard, and right now I think a Holiday for Holiday trade makes the most sense. Trade the younger Holiday + other assets in a play to acquire Jrue Holiday, who looks like a guy who might be available, plays a secondary scorer and lead guard role, and has a huge contract which the Pacers are in the advantageous position to be able to absorb fairly easily into cap space.

                    You could also go after Kemba Walker, but I just think he's probably staying in Charlotte or aiming higher. Don't see many realistic targets in free agency at this time.

                    Upgrade Your starting PG spot while weakening your forward spot, BUT, possibly allowing for an addition by subtraction scenario with bigger minutes for Sabonis. Not to mention, forcing young guys such as Alize Johnson and Edmund Sumner into bigger roles off the bench (I kinda think both guys are sleepers).

                    If you feel like Turner/Sabonis isn't working, wait for the trade deadline and look to trade (more likely, sorry folks) Sabonis for a major upgrade at forward.

                    These things move the team forward without tearing down, because I believe a tank strategy now is just a kiss goodbye to Vic in two seasons and you're back to square one. Worse off than you started.
                    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

                    - ilive4sports

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by BillS View Post

                      A couple of things to address here. You covered some - bringing it up doesn't mean I think you aren't saying it. I want to be complete so certain people might find it more difficult to take things out of context.

                      First, I think we agree that you can't both go after good players in trades and FA and also step back for a year. You are essentially trying to sell players on coming to your team to rest for a year or to stay with your team after you refused to use them so you could (quote/unquote) develop your other assets. It's hard enough to convince players to come here if they think we're trying to win something. Convincing them to come here to help us take a season off won't work. But not getting those FAs or keeping those traded players will be the fault of an incompetent front office.

                      "Stepping back" therefore has to assume you are at least standing pat and at most actively dumping veteran players to see if your rookie and second contract players work out. If they work out you are starting a rebuild all over again, which I suspect Dipo is not going to be completely on board with at this point. If he leaves because no one surrounded him with talent while he was rehabbing, well, there goes the incompetent FO letting our top player go again because they didn't give him options.

                      If in the previous paragraph developing your young guys doesn't work, congratulations - you've set yourself up to tank. Unless the team is just good enough to be playing for the 8th position in the playoffs in April, meaning that incompetent FO is trying to win meaningless games instead of going full bore for the lottery (tanking).

                      After that crappy year, what is next? Magically getting a couple of all-stars to show up? No, more likely another year or two of bad results (take your pick - late lottery, 8th seed, whatever you think is worse) unless you actively set yourself up to lose - tanking.

                      And then it becomes a cycle, unless one of those picks becomes good enough to start carrying you into the upper middle of the pack. You then have a choice to make - try developing a team around that player (who, since he plays for the Pacers, will "never be a guy you can win a championship with him as your best") OR run screaming from him and dump him at the first opportunity so you can continue trying to get better draft picks you can run screaming from if they aren't immediate franchise players.

                      I also see only doing the best you can and tanking as the binary options because swinging for the fences is often justified by saying that missing means you just go ahead and tank. Tie yourself to Conley's contract and Dipo (or Conley) gets injured? Just tank it out, man, it'll be great.

                      That's why I don't look at "stepping back" as something temporary or one-year-and-done.


                      Some individual items to address:

                      "Constantly drafting in the middle of the pack doesn't work" - neither does tanking unless you get the superstar #1 pick of the generation. Even considering that, only Cleveland (AFTER LeBron returned), Miami,and San Antonio have won with their own top 5 pick since the Golden Age of Jordan (you can mutter about Kobe, who should have gone higher but had refused to play for a small market team, but who knows where that would have gone). So fishing in the early lottery involves INCREDIBLE luck (that's why they call it a lottery).

                      The method that has absolutely been the most successful is to be able to get players who are proving themselves. If you get them in trades, someone has to give them up, and you need either draft picks that would be better than the players you're after (in which case why trade them?), aging stars (in which case they'd better have had a chance to shine in competition and not just be the best player on a bad team), or cap space to absorb bad contracts (which is another way of taking a risk). If you get them in FA, well, you have to have something to attract them, which unfortunately is either the bright lights of the city, the balmy climate during a part of the year you're seldom at home anyway, or an already present history of winning championships or at least being in the top 4 teams in the league.

                      And even THAT method doesn't always work - that's often been the method the Pacers have tried. I blame a lot of the failures to move forward in the Bird GM era to his singular obsession with the bargain basement guy who surely will work just as hard as HE did and become a star. I think calling KP a bust for missing on Evans in his second year of actually doing anything (again, a year that was supposed to be a placeholder for positioning a bad team to pick up the 2019 FA market) while failing to look at the long list of "this guy could be the best..." that Bird went after is unfair to KP (though I think the narrative is to blame it on Herb even though Larry seemed perfectly fine with having that no-strings "my way or I hit the pavement" contract that seemed to have that one pesky string he needed to be rid of. This is Bird - if he REALLY thought Herb was holding him back he'd have walked.)



                      But, for me, it all comes down to this. When I evaluate how I have enjoyed my time as a Pacer fan, it won't be about choosing to sit through hundreds of miserable games in the hope that before I die we'll have one time where we win the last game of the playoffs. I'm not excited to go to a game just because the other team has a superstar I can watch gleefully stomp the crap about the pitiful mes that represents my home. I don't want half-empty arenas even though it no longer necessarily means losing the team (in my lifetime, probably) because that's not fun. I want a community of fans of my team that revel in the game played by that team, not bonded by their shared desire to ridicule the product on the floor and dream of getting a magic championship.

                      We could very well end up bad in the fullness of time just because the cycle turns and players get hurt. Our luck means that Dipo could very well have seen his best games of his career already, and no one else right now is going to lead us any better from where we are right now. KP seems to be one of the best guys we've had in a long time at cap mananagement, which means when that happens we may not be bogged down with bad contracts like we were before (assuming some guys on the team don't get frustrated and start beating up fans or shooting up parking lots) and can take advantage. Who knows?

                      Does OKC ever win a championship? Maybe they would have if the Warriors hadn't changed the game, but who knows what the Pacers could have done if Cleveland hadn't been allowed to amass draft picks as a reward for letting LBJ go win his ring elsewhere. Does the Process work for Philly? I don't know, but that team became a laughing stock to its own dedicated fans for long enough that if it doesn't someone should be kicked into the next century.

                      Barring financial ruin, I'll be a seasons ticket holder until I die. I really don't want the majority of those years to be years where we lose on purpose to avoid the horror of not winning it all, while never ever actually being in a position to win it all anyway. The playing of the games is what I enjoy, not the machinations and player swapping and coaching changes and moving furniture around.
                      Youíve expressed perfectly how easy it is to troll message boards with constant negativity. No matter what happens, something better was possible. The decision makers can always be dumber than you. How mighty it must make them feel to be so much smarter than everyone else, I guess it must be addicting, would explain the frequency of posting.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Some folks put waaaayyyyy too much effort into thinking about this.

                        It's a game. Enjoy it. They win - cool. They lose - bummer. Sun will still rise tomorrow.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I really don't think it matters. The Pacers cannot attract free agents and while they can move pieces around, we don't have any elite players except Dipo who may never return to form. Even if Dipo is 100%, we are not a contender. In fact, we are are years away from contending and if that ever does happen again it will not be in the Dipo era.

                          So, I'm past it. I will follow the team but we are on course to be good but not great for a long time. The only thing that changes that is if we have two or three players that dramatically improve along the lines that Dipo did a couple years ago. IOW, good luck and enjoy the next half decade and maybe at some point around 2025 we have something interesting.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Peck View Post
                            If were going to dream then I'm dreaming big.

                            Trade Myles Turner to Atlanta for John Collins.

                            Let everyone of our free agents walk except KOQ because he can be had for cheap and won't complain about his role

                            Sign Jimmy Butler & Kimba Walker as the big names. Terrance Ross as a mid level name (not mid level exception though) Round it out with Al-Farouq Aminu and fill ins

                            C Sabonis
                            PF Collins
                            SF Butler
                            SG Oladipo
                            PG Walker

                            Bench Ross, Holiday, Aminu, Leaf, Sumner, Johnson
                            I love that plan but Iím not sure there is enough money to make that happen.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                              I really don't think it matters. The Pacers cannot attract free agents and while they can move pieces around, we don't have any elite players except Dipo who may never return to form. Even if Dipo is 100%, we are not a contender. In fact, we are are years away from contending and if that ever does happen again it will not be in the Dipo era.

                              So, I'm past it. I will follow the team but we are on course to be good but not great for a long time. The only thing that changes that is if we have two or three players that dramatically improve along the lines that Dipo did a couple years ago. IOW, good luck and enjoy the next half decade and maybe at some point around 2025 we have something interesting.
                              We know how you feel from the first 1000 times youíve said it.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post

                                I love that plan but Iím not sure there is enough money to make that happen.
                                KP said the Pacers have 45? million if they renounce every one. So just ONE of those big two i.e. Butler or Walker are going to want the max of 32 million. That leaves 13 million for 3-4 other players
                                That is not going to happen. So I doubt the Pacers even sign even one player of that level. We will see young players like Payton or Ross or someone else of that type.
                                Resign Bogie and Thad and a draft pick. Domas will be traded at the deadline

                                {o,o}
                                |)__)
                                -"-"-

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X