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How much blame does Nate McMillan deserve for the Pacers game 1 performance?

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  • #16
    I think it's silly to blame Nate. Sloppy plays and bad rotations are on the coach. Missing wide open shots and not being able to create is on the players. You look at our starting five, who exactly can create for others? Almost every single player on our roster is a role player. Some are excellent role players like DC and Thad, others are just washed up like Evans. The only two prospects that can develop into solid starters (think 3rd option on a championship team) are Sabonis and Turner, and it doesn't look like they posses the mobility and flexibility to play together.

    Truth is, this group of elite role-players has overachieved. Nate deserves credit for this. If you look at other teams in the east, such as the Pistons, the Wizards and the Hornets, I wouldn't say our roster is THAT MUCH better. I'd rather have the Pistons 2nd best player (be it Griffin or Drummond) over our 2nd best player (Turner or Sabonis). If the fit was right, I'd take Beal or a healthy John Wall over Turner or Sabonis too. The only reason I write those things is to prove a point that inferior teams have comparable rosters to ours.
    Last edited by yoadknux; 04-16-2019, 07:31 AM.
    Originally posted by Piston Prince
    Bobcat fans telling us to cheer up = epic fail season
    "Josh Smith Re-building the city of Detroit one brick at a time"

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    • #17
      Bottom line the national media looks at our talent and besides having an allstar in Vic we don't have a lot of top tier talent, so to win 48 games two years in a row is remarkable. Our second best player is a weak second best for any of the top playoff teams. And Vic is a not a strong top player on a team that has finished 5th in the east.

      Look at the top 4 seeds in east - each of the teams have a top player better than Vic and a second best player better than Bogey - or whowever you want to claim is the second best player. -The West is even stronger.

      I mean look at the current Celtics team vs the current pacers team. OK we are the captains and we pick players - how many Celtics players are we taking before we take a pacers player? 5? 6?. I mean Rozier who doesn't play much would be our best backcourt player right now if he were on the Pacers and he is the Celtics 8th man
      UB, this is precisely how to express the way I too view this team. Nobody should be surprised about what went down, despite how extreme that 3rd quarter was. I don't know if Nate McMillan is the coach to take us to championship competition level. But he has done a better job than anybody could have expected the last two years. And our roster as currently constituted - and here I'm including Dipo - is not a championship contending roster talent-wise, particularly on offense. Hopefully so in the future, but not now.
      I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

      -Emiliano Zapata

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      • #18
        Would someone describe for me what is a modern offense? One thing the pacers do that is modern is dribble hand offs. 3 years ago and more teams didn't do those, now most teams do, Pacers also. Is modern jacking up threes? if that is what you mean, then I will say I want good 3 point shots from the right shooters. Who in the NBA runs a modern offense? The Warriors? They run a combination of a lot of stuff the Bulls ran with the tri-angle and a lot of stuff Pop runs with the Spurs. Is that modern? Seems a hybrid of some old fashion stuff - but it does look great with Curry, Durant, and Klay - I bet if we had them running our current offense, we could look great also?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
          Our offense is cringe worthy against really good defense because our offensive talent is the worst of any team in the playoffs. We have all role players on this team right now (obviously I am talking about without Vic), they play well together, are extremely well coach, they play hard, they play the right way, but they are not very talented.especially offensively. Although probably the Pistons without Blake are worse offensively and they got blown out - at least Nate helped keep the Pacers in the game.

          What makes Nate a good coach. He is consistent, fair, hard working - just a few of his personal traits. His teams play hard, play together, focus on defense.

          Did we lose every game to the heat this season? No. Did we lose every game to the Spurs this season? No. Did we lose every game to the Celtics this season? No. The Bucks? Not, the Nuggets? No, Clipper? No. The coaches of those teams are some of the best in the NBA so no we don't lose to every team with a good coach, like you suggest.

          I don't even know who Marvin Lewis is, so I can't address that.

          Bottom line the national media looks at our talent and besides having an allstar in Vic we don't have a lot of top tier talent, so to win 48 games two years in a row is remarkable. Our second best player is a weak second best for any of the top playoff teams. And Vic is a not a strong top player on a team that has finished 5th in the east.

          Look at the top 4 seeds in east - each of the teams have a top player better than Vic and a second best player better than Bogey - or whowever you want to claim is the second best player. -The West is even stronger.

          I mean look at the current Celtics team vs the current pacers team. OK we are the captains and we pick players - how many Celtics players are we taking before we take a pacers player? 5? 6?. I mean Rozier who doesn't play much would be our best backcourt player right now if he were on the Pacers and he is the Celtics 8th man


          After the breakup of the 2014 team and PG asking to be traded, most expected a rebuilding team - I predicted last season 28 wins. The vegas over/under last season was 31.50. This season
          Okay I agree with virtually everything you have typed here.

          Now here is the problem I ask you. I know you are one of the ones (like myself and others) who do not believe in tanking. However we both know that Indiana is not a free agent destination. We can want Kevin Durrant and others all we want but they are never going to come here. So instead of the A list players we end up with castaways like Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis and Tyreke Evans just to name a few. I know people are having large expectations this coming off season and at the very least are expecting Kemba Walker. But you and I both know we will resign our own free agents and fill in the rest with most like a DeMarre Carroll or the like.

          Now having said that and I agree with you about our talent level let me ask you this.

          How the hell do we ever get out of this. We are going to be drafting 18 which is better than 23 but its a hell of a lot worse than 8. In other words whoever we draft may or may not be a rotational player maybe someday down the road.

          Now see I think Pritchard has had a very mixed tenure so far. I agree the Oladipo and Sabonis trade for Paul George was great. However let's not kid ourselves the T.J. Leaf draft was a mistake. Here he is completing his second season in the NBA and he can not even crack the regular rotation. Is it his fault or the coach's? It doesn't matter. I don't think any of us are looking to next season expecting Leaf to be a real contributor to the team. Ike is already gone. Now you can argue that its safe to assume second round picks are a crapshoot and you would be right. I like Aaron Holiday, which surprises even me, but others really do not. Is he a big contributor next season? I hope so but I have no idea.

          I say all of that to ask you how do we get to where we can get talent and not go through another Danny Granger experience with Victor. In other words played his career with zero help until the end and by then his career was over. How do we not waste the next 3-4 years of Victor's prime by pairing him up with the Darren Collison and Tyreke Evans of the world?

          IMO we have very few trade-able assets. We have our pick which won't be worth much because its low and we have our future picks which none of us want to trade. Then we have Turner & Sabonis and you could get some return for them, how much I'm not sure but you could get a decent haul I suspect. Then you have Holiday and Leaf and that is it. I'm not sure you could even get low first round picks for either of them at this moment, maybe you could but I'm not guaranteeing it.

          So how would you rebuild the team, because you and I both agree that is what it is going to take. It may not take a massive rebuild but we have to do something.


          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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          • #20
            I think Nate does a very good job mostly. I do get frustrated from time to time with his refusal to be dynamic during the game with subs, and I think he needs a good offensive minded assistant coach to take the reins on that end.
            Myles took only 6 shots in game 1, and while some of the blame definitely lies with Myles there, some of that has to be coaching as well. Myles should be the second scoring option in the starting lineup right now, but almost every game he takes the LEAST shots.
            #LanceEffect

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            • #21
              Originally posted by sav View Post

              Evans was coming off a season where he averaged 19 point and 5 assists per game, shot 45% from the field and 40% from 3. Signing him did not look bad at the time.

              McDermott is a 40% three point shooter. Signing him did not look like a bad move either, signing him for 3 years is questionable.

              Pritchard has been the Pacers GM for 2 summers. The first summer he hit a grand slam with Vic and Sabonis. The second summer his moves flopped. It happens. I think he will have another pretty good summer this year...not Vic and Sabonis good, but I think he will do okay. Word on the street is that he wants to get a star to put beside Vic. Let's see what he comes up with.
              This really is a matter of opinion so you aren't wrong in that aspect. However no, not everybody thought both of these signings did not look bad. I about burnt my house to the ground when I read the Pacers signed McDermott at the stroke of midnight. Tyreke Evans put up numbers on a horrid team. We call that the Cory Maggette rule, somebody has to score. He is a career loser, this is his second trip to the playoffs in his entire career.


              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Peck View Post

                This really is a matter of opinion so you aren't wrong in that aspect. However no, not everybody thought both of these signings did not look bad. I about burnt my house to the ground when I read the Pacers signed McDermott at the stroke of midnight. Tyreke Evans put up numbers on a horrid team. We call that the Cory Maggette rule, somebody has to score. He is a career loser, this is his second trip to the playoffs in his entire career.
                OMG.....I just realized that Tyreke is the 2nd coming of Corey Maggette. My new nickname for Tyreke is "Bad Porn 2.0". There's a lot of penetration but he can't finish anymore from Tyreke ( seriously, the guy needs the basketball equivalent of viagra at this point his career ). The silver lining in a quick playoff exit is that we will only have 3 to 5 more games of Tyreke in a Pacers uniform.
                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                • #23
                  Here's the problem I see. People say hey Nate shouldn't be fired cause he doesn't have talent but look what the Pacer's record is. But hey Frank got fired and look at some of the teams he had. Frank almost got a team led by Solo and Lance into the play-offs. Lets not forget a team with Hans and Lou (even though I love some sweet Lou) get good rotational minutes. So to say can't fire Nate cause the team is over achieving, isn't necessarily true.

                  But sorry to say, this team hasn't shot free throws well in months. That should've been nipped in the butt a long time ago. How about Nate was hired to hold players accountable for poor play? Well Evans still plays even when he's being a ball hog, CoJo stunk it up for two months yet continued to play (I also like CoJo, but Holiday should've been subbed in once Nate saw CoJo was still struggling).

                  And you could easily argue that the defense took a step back when Nate took over for Frank

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                  • #24
                    Also as far as the article is concerned, I disagree about Leaf. Leaf is one of our better rebounders. But he should be playing with BB and Turner instead of Sabo and Doug. Evans, Dougie, Leaf and Sabo all together is a disaster on the defensive end.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Peck View Post

                      Okay I agree with virtually everything you have typed here.

                      Now here is the problem I ask you. I know you are one of the ones (like myself and others) who do not believe in tanking. However we both know that Indiana is not a free agent destination. We can want Kevin Durrant and others all we want but they are never going to come here. So instead of the A list players we end up with castaways like Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis and Tyreke Evans just to name a few. I know people are having large expectations this coming off season and at the very least are expecting Kemba Walker. But you and I both know we will resign our own free agents and fill in the rest with most like a DeMarre Carroll or the like.

                      Now having said that and I agree with you about our talent level let me ask you this.

                      How the hell do we ever get out of this. We are going to be drafting 18 which is better than 23 but its a hell of a lot worse than 8. In other words whoever we draft may or may not be a rotational player maybe someday down the road.

                      Now see I think Pritchard has had a very mixed tenure so far. I agree the Oladipo and Sabonis trade for Paul George was great. However let's not kid ourselves the T.J. Leaf draft was a mistake. Here he is completing his second season in the NBA and he can not even crack the regular rotation. Is it his fault or the coach's? It doesn't matter. I don't think any of us are looking to next season expecting Leaf to be a real contributor to the team. Ike is already gone. Now you can argue that its safe to assume second round picks are a crapshoot and you would be right. I like Aaron Holiday, which surprises even me, but others really do not. Is he a big contributor next season? I hope so but I have no idea.

                      I say all of that to ask you how do we get to where we can get talent and not go through another Danny Granger experience with Victor. In other words played his career with zero help until the end and by then his career was over. How do we not waste the next 3-4 years of Victor's prime by pairing him up with the Darren Collison and Tyreke Evans of the world?

                      IMO we have very few trade-able assets. We have our pick which won't be worth much because its low and we have our future picks which none of us want to trade. Then we have Turner & Sabonis and you could get some return for them, how much I'm not sure but you could get a decent haul I suspect. Then you have Holiday and Leaf and that is it. I'm not sure you could even get low first round picks for either of them at this moment, maybe you could but I'm not guaranteeing it.

                      So how would you rebuild the team, because you and I both agree that is what it is going to take. It may not take a massive rebuild but we have to do something.
                      Answering even though I'm not UB...

                      First off, I still think TJ Leaf was LJB's parting gift. I don't think he was Pritchard's fault other than not overriding it.

                      Second, while we usually expect a team like ours to rebuild through the draft I think it is simply too much of a crap shoot to get players with such a small track record who are coming out after their freshman year. I think a good scouting department can put together a lineup year after year like the one we have now but that getting a great player through the draft alone requires luck as much as skill - and depending on luck has proven to be a dumb move for the Pacers.

                      Let's look at Boston vs. Philly's "process". Philly went all in on getting great draft picks and using them for talented players who (up to now) haven't particularly proven they can play together. Boston, on the other hand, has parlayed their picks into trades more often than not - smart trades that bring in young players of known worth from teams who have an abundance of talent but not enough fit. I never trusted Bird to make those kind of decisions with draft picks - Bird was the poster boy for shopping in the scratch-and-dent section hoping for a bargain - but I trust KP. IF our lineup was working out I'd be all for keeping picks, but it isn't - even giving credit without Vic - so getting and trading picks would be a good move for next year.

                      I don't think we're going to go after the players who are everyone's list simply because we need more than one piece to make things work. Vic plus another all-star plus whoever is left after we clear the rest of the starters and top bench isn't going to win anything in Vic's remaining time, either. I want to keep Turner, Domas, and Bojan unless a no-brainer deal comes up (and, contrary to popular belief around here, those deals don't usually come up).
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The Pacers had the 5th best 3% in the league, but only the San Antonio Spurs shot as few three pointers. In today's game, unfortunately IMO, you have to shoot volume 3's unless you have a very special team. Even then, more 3's would help a special team.

                        So, should Nate McMillan be fired? I think that's a hard question to answer for me, but he should have put guys in a better position to shoot more 3's because they can do that. Darren Collison, for example, attempted only 2.6 3's a game and he shot over 40% from 3. That is criminal considering his percentage from 2 was just 46%.

                        Bojan got some up, but only 4.8 attempts. Given the fact he shot 42.5% he should have shot more.

                        Myles Turner was right at 39% and only shot 2.7 3's a game. This really pretty bad considering he UNDOUBTEDLY should be used a a floor spacer all the time. He doesn't rebound or score inside that effectively.

                        The Pacers other starter, Thad Young, is really excellent around the rim. Why not have Myles always playing on the perimeter to give Thad more room. He's a savant around the rim but with bigs in there it is far more difficult. But Nate doesn't understand this.

                        Our SG position is a mess, not really much to discuss. But if Dipo was available he could shoot some but really he's well below those other guys shooting from range. Yet he shot more than anyone from 3. Yes, volume may have lowered his percentage but why not have one of those other guys shoot 35% and further open up the lane for Dipo. But noooo.

                        Really the first stat about our effectiveness but lack of shooting 3's is offensive malpractice and I know we lack talent but 74 points in the playoffs? Really?
                        Last edited by BlueNGold; 04-15-2019, 08:46 PM.

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                        • #27
                          This is the conundrum: what does a team do with a 99th percentile defensive coach and 0th percentile offensive coach. The answer is unequivocally not firing him.
                          I unequivocally disagree. He deserved to be fired after last season's playoffs. Nothing I've seen this year has changed my mind. You cannot have your coach be the reason why you lose in the playoffs.

                          A realistic fix the Pacers can employ now is hiring an offensive coordinator type to completely take the offensive responsibilities from McMillan.
                          If that is how it works in the NBA, then why not find an offense coach to pair with our already excellent DC in Dan Burke? We've been saying this since Vogel. Anyways, there is more to it than just his non-existant offensive system.


                          I whole-heartedly disagree that this team isn't talented. It is talented, just poorly coached on offense. Usually Vic has been dynamic enough to make up for the **** poor offensive system, but without Vic the system just doesn't work as it requires a Vic like player to be successful. The talent is there to have a decent offense, you just can't be pounding the ball into the floor while everyone else stands still, or constantly having your two worst offensive starters doing iso post ups. The problem isn't talent level, it is skillset. We don't have a good creator in an offensive system that requires a great creator. That is on Nate for not having a system that takes advantage of the skillsets that his players have. As a coach you cannot be an ideologue. You have to be able to adapt to the players you are given.

                          I personally, don't 'care about taking long twos. There is no real correlation between taking more 3's and having a better offense. If you look at the top 6 teams in 3pa per 100 possesions, the Pacers scored more points per 100 than 4 of them. There is a correlation between better offense and a better FG%, with the only major outliers this season being the Pacers being 4th in FG% but 18th in points per 100. I think this is mainly due to our poor FT%. The other being the Rockets, which might have something to do with Harden. So I say, don't focus on the kind of shot you are taking, just focus on making shots.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post
                            I would actually blame Pritchard more than Nate. Not really sure how a better coach could win with this roster. The off-season of 2018 has to be viewed as a complete bust. Washed up Evans and Doug McDermott were terrible signings. Where the hell were our scouts when Spencer Dinwiddie was available? Instead of trying to find a diamond in the rough, we are wasting time watching tape on washed up big named FA's. Do your damned job scouts
                            Seriously, Prichard has been fabulous. He inherited Bird's mess. Got us Vic and Sabonis for PG-13, who every team in the league knew was going to leave. Kinda made it hard to get a good trade, but he did.

                            He put a team together in one summer that was not only competitive, we made the playoffs, took LeButthole to 7 games, would have beat them if not for a couple of missed calls late. Bogey, Joseph, O'Quin, Collison. All great pickups. Everyone thought it would take years to get over losing PG-13, Prichard did it in one off season.

                            He improved the team this last off season. I still think McBuckets was a good pick up. Evans on paper was actually a great pick up, huge improvement over Lance. Obviously he wasn't and it did not work out, he has sucked all season. But you can't fault the reasoning behind it. He was great last season in Memphis. I think his knees are shot, dude can't jump over a pack of cigarettes.

                            Later 1st round picks and 2nd rounders are always a crap shoot. TJ Leaf is still very young and looks like he will be a good rotation play, can't ask for much more. Holiday looks like starter in this league to me, great pick. Sumner was a nice pick up, Alize has talent, could be a rotation player as soon as next season.

                            I'm not sure what hell some of you expect. We lost a top 10 player. Most thought we'd struggle for years and not even sniff the playoffs for some time. Pritch got us back on track, actually better than with PG-13, very quickly.

                            Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk

                            "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG" - Carol "The Walking Dead"

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by BillS View Post

                              Answering even though I'm not UB...

                              First off, I still think TJ Leaf was LJB's parting gift. I don't think he was Pritchard's fault other than not overriding it.

                              Second, while we usually expect a team like ours to rebuild through the draft I think it is simply too much of a crap shoot to get players with such a small track record who are coming out after their freshman year. I think a good scouting department can put together a lineup year after year like the one we have now but that getting a great player through the draft alone requires luck as much as skill - and depending on luck has proven to be a dumb move for the Pacers.

                              Let's look at Boston vs. Philly's "process". Philly went all in on getting great draft picks and using them for talented players who (up to now) haven't particularly proven they can play together. Boston, on the other hand, has parlayed their picks into trades more often than not - smart trades that bring in young players of known worth from teams who have an abundance of talent but not enough fit. I never trusted Bird to make those kind of decisions with draft picks - Bird was the poster boy for shopping in the scratch-and-dent section hoping for a bargain - but I trust KP. IF our lineup was working out I'd be all for keeping picks, but it isn't - even giving credit without Vic - so getting and trading picks would be a good move for next year.

                              I don't think we're going to go after the players who are everyone's list simply because we need more than one piece to make things work. Vic plus another all-star plus whoever is left after we clear the rest of the starters and top bench isn't going to win anything in Vic's remaining time, either. I want to keep Turner, Domas, and Bojan unless a no-brainer deal comes up (and, contrary to popular belief around here, those deals don't usually come up).
                              I want to make sure I am understanding you here. Are you advocating making major changes to the roster in the off season? If you are

                              To further get clarification I'm not sure I 100% understand your trading and receiving of draft picks. Are you saying trade our pick for a player or are you saying trade our pick for more picks or trade player for picks or what? I'm not sure which way to go here.

                              As to T.J. sadly we will never know. KP said that Bird told him that he'd be dumb if he didn't take Leaf. That being said I don't know if this was gospel or if this was a misguided attempt to make the casual fan like him more because of Birds standing in the state. To me it was Pritchards job to make that pick and unless Herb Simon told him to follow whatever Bird told him then its on him. If he didn't do his homework and just chose him because Bird said so then I really blame him. However KP is not a lazy or dumb man he had to have at least scouted Leaf to some point.

                              But more to my point I want to read more about your ideas about rebuilding the team.


                              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                              • #30
                                KP deserves a lot of blame for this. Nate not so much. Look at the Clippers and Montrezl Harrell was something the Pacers desperately needed. Really feisty and aggressive. He was there for the signing
                                Last edited by owl; 04-16-2019, 07:00 AM.
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