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How much blame does Nate McMillan deserve for the Pacers game 1 performance?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
    The Pacers had the 5th best 3% in the league, but only the San Antonio Spurs shot as few three pointers. In today's game, unfortunately IMO, you have to shoot volume 3's unless you have a very special team. Even then, more 3's would help a special team.

    So, should Nate McMillan be fired? I think that's a hard question to answer for me, but he should have put guys in a better position to shoot more 3's because they can do that. Darren Collison, for example, attempted only 2.6 3's a game and he shot over 40% from 3. That is criminal considering his percentage from 2 was just 46%.

    Bojan got some up, but only 4.8 attempts. Given the fact he shot 42.5% he should have shot more.

    Myles Turner was right at 39% and only shot 2.7 3's a game. This really pretty bad considering he UNDOUBTEDLY should be used a a floor spacer all the time. He doesn't rebound or score inside that effectively.

    The Pacers other starter, Thad Young, is really excellent around the rim. Why not have Myles always playing on the perimeter to give Thad more room. He's a savant around the rim but with bigs in there it is far more difficult. But Nate doesn't understand this.

    Our SG position is a mess, not really much to discuss. But if Dipo was available he could shoot some but really he's well below those other guys shooting from range. Yet he shot more than anyone from 3. Yes, volume may have lowered his percentage but why not have one of those other guys shoot 35% and further open up the lane for Dipo. But noooo.

    Really the first stat about our effectiveness but lack of shooting 3's is offensive malpractice and I know we lack talent but 74 points in the playoffs? Really?
    Technically, shooting volume 3's in the 3rd quarter was the reason why they lost the lead. They were too busy looking for the dagger and wasn't hitting the broadside of the barn.


    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Peck View Post

      Okay I agree with virtually everything you have typed here.

      Now here is the problem I ask you. I know you are one of the ones (like myself and others) who do not believe in tanking. However we both know that Indiana is not a free agent destination. We can want Kevin Durrant and others all we want but they are never going to come here. So instead of the A list players we end up with castaways like Rodney Stucky, Monta Ellis and Tyreke Evans just to name a few. I know people are having large expectations this coming off season and at the very least are expecting Kemba Walker. But you and I both know we will resign our own free agents and fill in the rest with most like a DeMarre Carroll or the like.

      Now having said that and I agree with you about our talent level let me ask you this.

      How the hell do we ever get out of this. We are going to be drafting 18 which is better than 23 but its a hell of a lot worse than 8. In other words whoever we draft may or may not be a rotational player maybe someday down the road.

      Now see I think Pritchard has had a very mixed tenure so far. I agree the Oladipo and Sabonis trade for Paul George was great. However let's not kid ourselves the T.J. Leaf draft was a mistake. Here he is completing his second season in the NBA and he can not even crack the regular rotation. Is it his fault or the coach's? It doesn't matter. I don't think any of us are looking to next season expecting Leaf to be a real contributor to the team. Ike is already gone. Now you can argue that its safe to assume second round picks are a crapshoot and you would be right. I like Aaron Holiday, which surprises even me, but others really do not. Is he a big contributor next season? I hope so but I have no idea.

      I say all of that to ask you how do we get to where we can get talent and not go through another Danny Granger experience with Victor. In other words played his career with zero help until the end and by then his career was over. How do we not waste the next 3-4 years of Victor's prime by pairing him up with the Darren Collison and Tyreke Evans of the world?

      IMO we have very few trade-able assets. We have our pick which won't be worth much because its low and we have our future picks which none of us want to trade. Then we have Turner & Sabonis and you could get some return for them, how much I'm not sure but you could get a decent haul I suspect. Then you have Holiday and Leaf and that is it. I'm not sure you could even get low first round picks for either of them at this moment, maybe you could but I'm not guaranteeing it.

      So how would you rebuild the team, because you and I both agree that is what it is going to take. It may not take a massive rebuild but we have to do something.
      I was hoping maybe the Pacers could sign Terrence Ross this coming summer - but he has played so well and the Magic are for real, I am expecting they will do everything to re-sign him. I haven't really started looking to the off season just yet. If Vic had never gotten injured the pacers finish 3rd in the east with 53-54 wins - and I believe a chance of making it to the ECF - a chance - but a good chance of making to the second round. So that is where I feel the team is. Vic makes a huge difference. he allows our current players to play like they are capable of instead they are trying to force things.

      So I don't think a rebuild is needed. If I were in charge, I would see if we could get Ross, and I would be looking for a big time point guard. We need more shooting, more creators in general at every position.

      Leaf wasn't a bad pick, he is turning into a decent player and looking at the players taken after him - sure a few better player taken after him - but no game changers

      problem is if we trade Myles, then we have no shot blocking. if we trade Sabonis, we have little toughness and rebounding. Both were obvious this past season when either was injured - we need both. And while I do think they can play together for 10-15 minutes a game - I don't think both being on the floor can be our best lineup.

      We have tons of salary cap flexibility this summer, use it smartly, continue to build around Vic - stay the course. I'm sorry but there are magical solutions our best players are still young.

      Kemba Walker? Not sure if he and Vic are a great combo - Kemba needs the ball.

      Holiday is a nice player - I think he will turn into a very solid starting caliber point guard. But to read some of the comments in the forum, you would think he is Russell Westbrook if only Nate would play him.

      One thing to keep in mind about KP - he is still a wheeler and dealer at heart. He said that the past two trade deadline current players came to him and asked that he not make changes - but I expect KP is more ready to make changes now. (although the injury to Vic delays everything
      Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-16-2019, 08:41 AM.

      Comment


      • #33
        Nice article by Bob Kravitz - some very honest comments from Nate. - Also let me say if you are reading the Athletic you are missing out on some great writing - not sure how they can pay all the salaries - but there is some great content on there - highly recommend.

        https://theathletic.com/925342/2019/...r-the-celtics/

        Kravitz: Pacers coach Nate McMillan searches in vain for ingredients to cook up an upset over the Celtics

        As​ the​ painfully​ inept​ third​ quarter wore​ on​ – and​ on and​ on – the​ Pacers​ completely incapable​ of​ buying a basket​​ in their gruesome 84-74 Game 1 loss to the Celtics, coach Nate McMillan crossed his arms and wore a faraway look.

        His team couldn’t score, managing just eight points in the third quarter and 29 in the second half. His team was getting scorched in the transition game, the one area the Celtics dominated during the teams’ four regular-season games and an area where they were getting torn apart now. Was he thinking of something he said before the series, when he made a strange but appropriate baking analogy?

        “We can sit here and try to create magic, but how much can you adjust?’’ McMillan said before the series began. “He (Boston coach Brad Stevens) takes advantage of his personnel. If you have the ingredients to do certain things to bake a cake, and all kinds of different ingredients, you can make all kinds of different cakes.

        “If you don’t, you can’t, so it’s a chocolate cake and that’s all you can do. He’s got a lot of ingredients, a lot of different things he can do. He can mix and match and do some things. He does what other coaches try to take advantage of.”

        Are you missing some ingredients? The answer is clear.

        “Of course we are, but you’ve got to work with what you’ve got,’’ he said. “I’m not knocking what we have but we’re missing some things. You work with what you’ve got.”



        No Victor Oladipo, no hope, or very little, anyway.

        How many teams, outside of the Warriors or Rockets, could lose their All-Star, their best player by a long shot, and still be competitive in the NBA postseason? Boston did it one year ago, losing Gordon Hayward at the start of the season, losing Kyrie Irving before the playoffs, and still found its way to the Eastern Conference Finals. But that’s not how the Pacers are built. They have one alpha dog, and currently, he’s in Miami, maintaining his sanity by sending out Instagram posts.

        This series provides McMillan a chance to show he’s among the league’s elite head coaches, a chance to show that he’s more than a coaching lifer who’s won more than 600 NBA games for the simple reason that he’s hung around so long. It provides a chance for McMillan to outmaneuver Stevens, the prodigy, in a contest of wills and adjustments. And yet, after just one game in the best-of-seven series, it feels like it’s far from a fair fight.

        That is not a reflection on McMillan, who deserves some votes for NBA Coach of the Year after leading the Pacers to a 32-15 record before Oladipo’s season-ending injury, at which point the Pacers finished the season 16-19. Put it this way: If McMillan can somehow extend this series to six games – or pull off the seismic, long-shot series upset – the national perspective of him will be altered forever. It’s just hard, really hard, to see how that might happen.

        Does he go small in Game 2, use Bojan Bogdanovic as a stretch-4?

        Does he find more minutes for the electric rookie point guard, Aaron Holiday?

        What can he possibly do to get more good looks for Bogdanovic, the team’s leading scorer after Oladipo went down, only to see him gasp and wheeze his way to just 12 points, five of them in the final minutes, Sunday?

        Or are those all just cosmetic moves that make him look like he’s doing something?

        That’s the problem for McMillan as the Pacers head into Game 2 Wednesday in Boston. He can work off a new recipe, try to bake a completely different type of cake, but without the necessary ingredients, will it make a difference in the long run?

        When Stevens lost Marcus Smart for several weeks with an injury, he was able to turn to Jaylen Brown, the third-overall pick in the 2016 draft. By comparison, when the Pacers lost Oladipo, they turned to Wesley Matthews, a credible player but one who isn’t likely to make a significant impact in this series.

        It’s all about ingredients.

        This is not unfamiliar territory for McMillan, who once again heads into the playoffs as a decided underdog despite the fact that just one victory and one seed spot separate the two teams. As a head coach, McMillan is 1-7 in postseason series, 17-29 (.370) in the win-loss category, but the victory in 2004-05 came when they were a higher seed in Seattle. In five of the other six series’ losses, McMillan’s teams have been the lower seeds, just as they are currently.

        “We’ve come into the playoffs before in situations like this, whether it’s injuries or a young group,’’ he said. “We’ve been in sixth, seventh or eighth position. I take it as it comes. You try to get Game 1 and go from there. As far as advancing, I know I haven’t advanced enough. But you take the group you have and try to get to the next round.’’

        He also knows that strange things can happen in the playoffs, things that fail to take into account the teams’ relative playoff seedings. For example, there was last year’s seven-game playoff loss to the Cavaliers, the one series McMillan still believes his team should have and could have won despite LeBron James’ routine heroics. If the officials don’t miss James’ goaltend of an Oladipo shot at the basket, thus setting up James’ game-winning three at the buzzer in Game 5, the Pacers might have advanced.

        “You can always win in the postseason regardless of where you finish,’’ he said. “As a rookie coming into the league, Dallas had our (Seattle’s) number in the (1987) regular season, beat us badly in the first game and then we won the next three and ended up in the Western Conference Finals.

        I know how it is this time of year. I’ve also been on the end of (having) the best record and losing to the eighth seed (when Denver beat Seattle in 1994-95). You get certain matchups, you get some momentum and all of a sudden, things can change quickly.’’

        The question for McMillan and his staff now is, can they bake something edible without yeast and vanilla extract? Can they find some shots for Bogdanovic? Can they get the kind of performance this series that’s been lacking almost all of the regular season from Tyreke Evans? Will this be Myles Turner’s breakout series, finally?

        And if and when McMillan makes adjustments, who’s to say that Stevens, one of the league’s brightest young minds, won’t effectively counter?

        Thad Young was asked if players are keenly aware of coaches who are particularly adept at adjusting both between games and on the fly during a game.

        “Shit yeah, we’re playing against one,’’ he said, referring to Stevens. “He does a hell of a job making adjustments and that’s not just against us, that’s against any team. He’s one of the league’s youngest coaches but he’s got a great basketball mind, how he’s able to manage all those guys and keep them all under control. They’ve got seven, eight guys who can start on any team, and you’ve got to manage that situation. That says a lot about a coach and who he is as a man.

        “Other coaches do a hell of a job. It’s huge what they do during the course of a game You can tell; players know when a coach can make adjustments on the fly. Like, ‘OK, they’ve run the same play two, three times in a row, so this is how we’re going to stop it.’ The same thing with Pop (Gregg Popovich). Nate does a good job sometimes and he’ll listen to us when he’s making adjustments. Billy Donovan. Mike Malone is huge with that. The guy in Orlando (Steve Clifford). I’m sure I’ve left some names out. But those are great basketball minds who understand the game.’’

        After the game, the Pacers took great pride in the fact they held Boston to just 84 points, well below their season scoring average of 112.4 points per game. And yet, it made little difference. The game started careening out of control during the ugliest third quarter of basketball we’ve seen all season, and only ended up being a 10-point game when the Pacers made a mild run during garbage time. Did we mention they scored 74 points? That’s a decent half for the Warriors.

        The cake collapsed on itself, turned into an amorphous blob of yuck. And there’s no guarantee it will get any more appetizing in the days to come. No ingredients, no hope.

        Comment


        • #34
          I don't think Nate should be fired. Overall he's done a good job the past 2 seasons. Doesn't mean I'm totally happy with him though.

          Turner and Sabonis have not been handled properly. Turner should be getting more shots. They don't run near enough plays for him. Sabonis and Turner should play at same damn time, MUCH more. Sabonis should initiate the offense more, our point guards suck at it. Our pg's pound the ball way to much.

          Holiday should play more, seems quite obvious.

          Nate needs to play the younger guys more. Even at the expense of a few wins. We obviously were not a playoff threat the second Vic went down. I'm not ever in the complete tank mindset, but you got to look to the future by playing the young a little more. Nate leans way to heavily on the the vets.



          Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk

          "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
            One thing to keep in mind about KP - he is still a wheeler and dealer at heart. He said that the past two trade deadline current players came to him and asked that he not make changes - but I expect KP is more ready to make changes now. (although the injury to Vic delays everything
            Quoted for Truth...people can't have it both ways. People blasted Bird for "destroying" the team chemistry due to his deadline trade that looked good on paper, but people want KP to pull the trigger on a team that clearly have better chemistry (while missing their star player) than the 2013-2014 team.


            Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post

              Quoted for Truth...people can't have it both ways. People blasted Bird for "destroying" the team chemistry due to his deadline trade that looked good on paper, but people want KP to pull the trigger on a team that clearly have better chemistry (while missing their star player) than the 2013-2014 team.
              Completely different. Bird traded Danny Granger, the longest tenured player on the team. A player everyone in the locker room respected. A player that humbly stepped down from the best player, and helped Paul George become the team's star. Pritchard, on the other hand, keeps bums like Corey Joseph and TJ Leaf on the roster. Cannot compare a former all-star in Danny Granger, to G League players like Joseph and Leaf
              Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Peck View Post

                I want to make sure I am understanding you here. Are you advocating making major changes to the roster in the off season? If you are
                The players I listed - Vic, Turner, Domas, Bojan - are the only ones I'd be wedded to as a core (unless the proverbial no-brainer for one of them came along). I've looked at the rest of the roster as the way we get to the 2019 off-season. There are some I'd take back for the right deals, and keeping our rookie contracts is likely not going to be a problem (I'd definitely want to keep Holiday), but overall we need to upgrade the 1 and we need some actual scorers.

                Originally posted by Peck View Post
                To further get clarification I'm not sure I 100% understand your trading and receiving of draft picks. Are you saying trade our pick for a player or are you saying trade our pick for more picks or trade player for picks or what? I'm not sure which way to go here.
                As opposed to previous years I want to push for picks to be included in trades, but not for our own use (again, unless a no-brainer comes up at those draft positions, which isn't likely) but to include in trades for teams looking for fit from the draft in exchange for a player living up to potential who doesn't fit. I'd probably want to see us use the best remaining pick ourselves just to keep the young guys coming, but I am pretty burnt out on the idea of getting an important player in any given year from the draft itself (over time? Sure, stats usually bear out that over 10 years of drafting in the top 10 you should get a gem, but I don't want to spend 10 years with our own pick being the one in the top 10) - I feel like we need to focus on the guys in year 2 or 3 of their rookie contracts and target them for trades of when they reach FA.
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post

                  I was hoping maybe the Pacers could sign Terrence Ross this coming summer - but he has played so well and the Magic are for real, I am expecting they will do everything to re-sign him. I haven't really started looking to the off season just yet. If Vic had never gotten injured the pacers finish 3rd in the east with 53-54 wins - and I believe a chance of making it to the ECF - a chance - but a good chance of making to the second round. So that is where I feel the team is. Vic makes a huge difference. he allows our current players to play like they are capable of instead they are trying to force things.

                  So I don't think a rebuild is needed. If I were in charge, I would see if we could get Ross, and I would be looking for a big time point guard. We need more shooting, more creators in general at every position.

                  Leaf wasn't a bad pick, he is turning into a decent player and looking at the players taken after him - sure a few better player taken after him - but no game changers

                  problem is if we trade Myles, then we have no shot blocking. if we trade Sabonis, we have little toughness and rebounding. Both were obvious this past season when either was injured - we need both. And while I do think they can play together for 10-15 minutes a game - I don't think both being on the floor can be our best lineup.

                  We have tons of salary cap flexibility this summer, use it smartly, continue to build around Vic - stay the course. I'm sorry but there are magical solutions our best players are still young.

                  Kemba Walker? Not sure if he and Vic are a great combo - Kemba needs the ball.

                  Holiday is a nice player - I think he will turn into a very solid starting caliber point guard. But to read some of the comments in the forum, you would think he is Russell Westbrook if only Nate would play him.

                  One thing to keep in mind about KP - he is still a wheeler and dealer at heart. He said that the past two trade deadline current players came to him and asked that he not make changes - but I expect KP is more ready to make changes now. (although the injury to Vic delays everything
                  But doesn't this post really run counter to your first post? Here you are saying stay the course and in your first post you are saying we have the worst offensive talent of any team in the playoffs, our second best player is weak for any of the playoff teams and even our best player is not all that great for a top player.

                  If I've learned nothing about salary cap over the years I've learned this. It means nothing in free agency for Indiana. Sure we can find all of the c level talent we want and you might get lucky and find a solid contributor but we just will not get game changers to sign with our team. We don't have an ocean for them to play in or wold famous nightlife for them to enjoy. That shouldn't make a bit of difference but in the NBA for whatever reason it does.

                  I agree that there really is no magic fix here. In fact that is why I'm so despondent about the team. I feel like we are stuck on a treadmill to nowhere of mediocrity. Yes I know our regular season record is better than mediocre but in the end it is just leading to yet another first round exit and honestly one that so fer has proven to be embarrassing.

                  I think a lot less of Pritchard if he really did not make needed changes to the team because players came to him and did not want to be traded. Nate's job is to win and win with the players he is given. Kevin's job on the other hand is to look out for the long term for the franchise.

                  I'll probably **** a lot of people off here but I'm going to say it. Victor Oladipo is not strong enough of an A player to be surrounded by role players, even good ones, and make a serious playoff run. In fact we really only have one season of Victor playing at that high of a level anyway. We don't know yet if that was an outlier or if this was going to be his new norm. Honestly before he went down with injury I didn't feel he was having all that great of a year anyway. We have absolutely no idea how he will be when he comes back. He could be better, same or worse there is just no way to know.

                  I just really hated last summer, I mean hated it. Not only did I feel once again we went garbage bin shopping for players in free agency we just wasted away all of our expiring contracts. I know they are not what they used to be but believe me they still had value. There were teams looking to get out of salary that might have offered us something. But now we have zero trade assets other than like you said players that basically we either can't or won't trade. But on top of that the players we signed? Good God I could not have dreamed of a worse signing than what we did. If your asking, which I know you are, I would much rather have taken every single penny we signed those three for and signed Marcus Smart or Montrez Harrel. Both of whom were available and Smart for sure would have taken a bigger contract and left Boston. Are they great players? Not really but they are both worlds better than the players we signed.

                  I just know this upcoming off season is going to consist of signing Bogdanovic, Young and either Collison or Joseph and then extending Sabonis (if he takes it). That will leave you with very little money left. Yes enough so that you could sing a max player probably but again, who is going to come here? I just perused the top 20 players available and there was not a single one that I thought we had even a remote chance of getting other than # 20 (Bogdanovic).

                  Sigh, I'm just rambling. I was hoping you were going to give me some scenario in which you found the path to a superior team because when I look at the future I just don't see where we can jump into that top 3 seed area without someone from up above tumbling, which I admit is possible because if Leonard bolts and they bust up the team Toronto may start over and who knows about Boston or Philly so it's not impossible.

                  As to Holiday I think the reason why people are so high on him may or may not have anything to do with him other than he offers something different from both Collison and Joseph. He can get his own shot whenever he wants. Both can get their own shots but not in the way he does.

                  Also thanks for the Kravits article. I was really well written and a good piece.

                  That being said continuing on the cake analogy, sometimes you have all the ingredients to make a pineapple upside down cake but when all you know hot to do is make white vanilla then that's what you get.
                  Last edited by Peck; 04-16-2019, 10:53 AM.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post

                    Completely different. Bird traded Danny Granger, the longest tenured player on the team. A player everyone in the locker room respected. A player that humbly stepped down from the best player, and helped Paul George become the team's star. Pritchard, on the other hand, keeps bums like Corey Joseph and TJ Leaf on the roster. Cannot compare a former all-star in Danny Granger, to G League players like Joseph and Leaf
                    Team Chemistry is team chemistry, and the Granger trade (on paper) wasn't a bad deal. This team WANTED to continue to play together. KP could have been "F you" and made changes, but at what costs when it comes to team chemistry? Now, if you say that they're "professionals" and need to suck it up, then the same thought process should be applied to the 2013-2014 team when Granger was traded.


                    Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                      Technically, shooting volume 3's in the 3rd quarter was the reason why they lost the lead. They were too busy looking for the dagger and wasn't hitting the broadside of the barn.
                      They should’ve been practicing that all year... instead of reaching for a Hail Mary
                      Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Peck View Post

                        But doesn't this post really run counter to your first post? Here you are saying stay the course and in your first post you are saying we have the worst offensive talent of any team in the playoffs, our second best player is weak for any of the playoff teams and even our best player is not all that great for a top player.

                        If I've learned nothing about salary cap over the years I've learned this. It means nothing in free agency for Indiana. Sure we can find all of the c level talent we want and you might get lucky and find a solid contributor but we just will not get game changers to sign with our team. We don't have an ocean for them to play in or wold famous nightlife for them to enjoy. That shouldn't make a bit of difference but in the NBA for whatever reason it does.

                        I agree that there really is no magic fix here. In fact that is why I'm so despondent about the team. I feel like we are stuck on a treadmill to nowhere of mediocrity. Yes I know our regular season record is better than mediocre but in the end it is just leading to yet another first round exit and honestly one that so fer has proven to be embarrassing.

                        I think a lot less of Pritchard if he really did not make needed changes to the team because players came to him and did not want to be traded. Nate's job is to win and win with the players he is given. Kevin's job on the other hand is to look out for the long term for the franchise.

                        I'll probably **** a lot of people off here but I'm going to say it. Victor Oladipo is not strong enough of an A player to be surrounded by role players, even good ones, and make a serious playoff run. In fact we really only have one season of Victor playing at that high of a level anyway. We don't know yet if that was an outlier or if this was going to be his new norm. Honestly before he went down with injury I didn't feel he was having all that great of a year anyway. We have absolutely no idea how he will be when he comes back. He could be better, same or worse there is just no way to know.

                        I just really hated last summer, I mean hated it. Not only did I feel once again we went garbage bin shopping for players in free agency we just wasted away all of our expiring contracts. I know they are not what they used to be but believe me they still had value. There were teams looking to get out of salary that might have offered us something. But now we have zero trade assets other than like you said players that basically we either can't or won't trade. But on top of that the players we signed? Good God I could not have dreamed of a worse signing than what we did. If your asking, which I know you are, I would much rather have taken every single penny we signed those three for and signed Marcus Smart or Montrez Harrel. Both of whom were available and Smart for sure would have taken a bigger contract and left Boston. Are they great players? Not really but they are both worlds better than the players we signed.

                        I just know this upcoming off season is going to consist of signing Bogdanovic, Young and either Collison or Joseph and then extending Sabonis (if he takes it). That will leave you with very little money left. Yes enough so that you could sing a max player probably but again, who is going to come here? I just perused the top 20 players available and there was not a single one that I thought we had even a remote chance of getting other than # 20 (Bogdanovic).

                        Sigh, I'm just rambling. I was hoping you were going to give me some scenario in which you found the path to a superior team because when I look at the future I just don't see where we can jump into that top 3 seed area without someone from up above tumbling, which I admit is possible because if Leonard bolts and they bust up the team Toronto may start over and who knows about Boston or Philly so it's not impossible.

                        As to Holiday I think the reason why people are so high on him may or may not have anything to do with him other than he offers something different from both Collison and Joseph. He can get his own shot whenever he wants. Both can get their own shots but not in the way he does.

                        Also thanks for the Kravits article. I was really well written and a good piece.

                        That being said continuing on the cake analogy, sometimes you have all the ingredients to make a pineapple upside down cake but when all you know hot to do is make white vanilla then that's what you get.
                        We disagree on McDermott, I really like him. Keeping in mind he is an 8th or 9th man. I like that pickup. Sure not a game changer - but solid.

                        Path to a superior team? That begs the question - do we 1) go for broke this summer - not re-sign anyone, and really go for it? Sure i am being simplistic.or 2) do we try to keep the same identity, add a few well chosen additions and improve. The first approach is a gamble if we do that, we might miss on a few big deals, and be looking at a 35 win team or even worse. The second approach would be more of a sure thing - guarantee 46 wins or so. Obviously a lot depends on Vic.

                        Back to Holiday - once again I like him - like his brothers. But I am pushing back on your comment that he can get his own shot anytime he wants. I mean he can jack up threes - especially when teams back off. But I don't see Holiday able to go where ever he wants with the ball - which to me is the first test of a great point guard.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post

                          We disagree on McDermott, I really like him. Keeping in mind he is an 8th or 9th man. I like that pickup. Sure not a game changer - but solid.

                          Path to a superior team? That begs the question - do we 1) go for broke this summer - not re-sign anyone, and really go for it? Sure i am being simplistic.or 2) do we try to keep the same identity, add a few well chosen additions and improve. The first approach is a gamble if we do that, we might miss on a few big deals, and be looking at a 35 win team or even worse. The second approach would be more of a sure thing - guarantee 46 wins or so. Obviously a lot depends on Vic.

                          Back to Holiday - once again I like him - like his brothers. But I am pushing back on your comment that he can get his own shot anytime he wants. I mean he can jack up threes - especially when teams back off. But I don't see Holiday able to go where ever he wants with the ball - which to me is the first test of a great point guard.
                          In a vacuum McDermott might be okay as a 9-11 player, maybe. But what our team desperately needed then and still needs now is some athleticism. We should have done everything in our power at the trade deadline to get Kelly Oubrie who was traded for the corpse of Trevor Ariza.

                          Your sure thing for next year looks a lot like the first step of 42 wins the next year and 38 wins the year after that. I say that because staying the course means more Thad Young who is already north of 30. More Darren Collison who is I think right at 30 and so on and so forth. While not developing a single young player (beyond Turner and Sabonis who I no longer consider young they are now veteran players). Well eventually they are going to reach a point that they can't keep up and if we have nobody in the wings waiting and then drafting year after year in the late teens early 20's how do we reload? I'm not talking about just going out and getting more bench fodder to keep up the 40 some win charade where we are all supposed to be happy to be in the playoffs but be bounced out early and often. i mean how do we make it so the second round at least is the expectation.



                          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Honestly...I just think Holiday and Kyle Quinn need more playing time while benching TJ Leaf and maybe reducing Cory's playing time. Holiday seems like the X-Factor we need while Quinn is another big body (and possibly enforcer) that we can use.


                            Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                              Honestly...I just think Holiday and Kyle Quinn need more playing time while benching TJ Leaf and maybe reducing Cory's playing time. Holiday seems like the X-Factor we need while Quinn is another big body (and possibly enforcer) that we can use.
                              I can live with that idea. it's at least something. If Leaf could get his offense going it would be nice but you can't expect a guy to get into any type of rhythm from very sporadic and uneven minutes over the course of a season.


                              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                My problem with Nate is the stubborness and egg timer rotations. Every coach and every team has made changes during the season. If you take a look at a team like the Nets. I think Hollis Jefferson was a starter or if not starting he was a key bench player. Their coach made a decision to pull him out of the rotation and start Kurucs and it worked out for them. Tyreke has played himself out of the rotation and for some reason Nate still sticks with him.

                                Our moves this offseason will really tell me a lot about KP and this team. The only pacer free agent that I would retain is bogey. The rest can walk. If we re-sign thad, Dc, or Cojo Then as peck said we will be on a treadmill of mediocrity. We need some more scorers and creators on this team. The only top free agents that I think we have a chance to sign would be Brogdon and a very low chance of signing Jimmy Butler. The bucks will have to go into the luxury tax to sign Brogdon and I just read an article that nba execs thinks he will be looking at a 4 year 60 million dollar contract.

                                I love thad, DC and Cojo but nate relies on his veterans to much and because of that IMO he has stunted their growth. Both leaf and Holiday has shown promise and KP needs to get rid of the veteran cushion and force Nate to give the young guys some time next season.

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