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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

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The Pacers front office fails miserably if we stand pat at deadline.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Handoverfist View Post
    The first year of the rebuild we take LeBron to seven games and almost win. The second year we were a few games out of first place in the east before our star went down( that Pritchard brought in). Yeah...Pritchard sucks.
    Seriously, Vic and Domas turned out to be a best case scenario last year but the signings of DC and Bogdonavic worked out beautifully. The trade for Corey Joseph was also a deal that I think the Pacers clearly won. KP got slapped in the face with a bag of lemons and he turned it into a pitcher of hard lemonade. It seemed like he built up a lot of equity last year but I guess we should just erase that because Vic went down.

    Comment


    • #17
      I agree that we should target and go hard after guys like Josh Hart, Thon Maker, Josh Jackson, etc or even draft picks (would LOVE De'Andre Hunter out of UVA). Going into this offseason with all of our "cap flexibility" will get us nowhere. In going after at least one of those young players, the Pacers would still have plenty of opportunity and money to stay competitive this year on into the future. Zero logic in standing pat.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by jrwannabe View Post
        Ask Hornet, Hawks, Pelicans, Suns, etc fans if they'd take recent Pacer seasons
        Yeah, because our string of first round exits is SO impressive...

        As for the Hawks specifically, letís take a look at the past 4 seasons compared to the Pacers...

        conference finals
        second round
        first round
        missed playoffs

        missed playoffs
        first round
        first round
        first round

        Which is better? On top of that the Hawks now have a bunch of promising young players in Young, Collins, Huerter, Prince, Spellman, Bembry.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post

          This off season was garbage nobody should make excuses for him it was anything but a ďmaster classĒ gtfo.
          First off-season, Vnz, come on, use your head.

          But you don't. You never do. Your entire schtick has always been, if you haven't been absolutely awesome in the past 3 days, you suck and need to be traded. Absolutely short-sighted and impatient, always. Just last month you couldn't stop posting about dumping Turner and making Sabo our franchise player.
          There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post

            First off-season, Vnz, come on, use your head.

            But you don't. You never do. Your entire schtick has always been, if you haven't been absolutely awesome in the past 3 days, you suck and need to be traded. Absolutely short-sighted and impatient, always. Just last month you couldn't stop posting about dumping Turner and making Sabo our franchise player.
            Talking about using your head, yikes.
            @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by bumpercar3 View Post

              But with this FA class expiring contracts are worth more than ever. Also with drafts becoming increasingly less predictable late picks have more value than ever. U can get a star player late in the 1st round, develop them for a year then get your star in the next lotto. Is it easy, no. You just have to be better. Iím not saying fire GMs for not winning obviously Iím saying fire them for not realizing how to compete.
              Our GM does realize how to compete. There is a reason why he refused to give a two year deal this last summer. There is a reason why he only gave out 2 year deals the summer before the last one. He is aiming for this off-season and wants to use that cap space to get a good player either via FA (not very likely, we don't have a good track record when it comes to attracting FAs) or via a trade. We are well-positioned as a team. We have a very good core that consists of 3 players (two of them already locked up in long term deals and the third still on his rookie contract), we have enough cap space to sign a max deal (especially if we trade away or renounce the rights to our expirings) and we'll probably have a pick in the 18-23 range.

              Teams aren't lining up to give us lottery picks or good, young prospects for our expirings. Maybe we can nab a player that a team has given up on. Maybe we can nab a late pick from a contender that could use Thad, Bojan or CoJo. We aren't going to get anything great, though. A late pick and maybe some reclamation projects. That's it. I do believe that this is the direction that we need to go and I'll be elated if this happens but the expectations that you've set up in your OP aren't realistic. Our expirings don't have that kind of value. Expirings, in general, don't have the kind of value that they used to have. They can't net you good picks anymore. The days of Billy King are over. Teams have smartened up.

              I do agree that we can find good players late in the draft. I'd just look at our recent draftees as proof of that. Aaron Holiday was a great pick at #23. Alize Johnson was a great pick at #50. Edmond Sumner was a great pick at #57 last year. Heck, even TJ Leaf, while definitely not a good pick, has shown that he belongs in this league and that he can have a decent career as a back-up. We have never been a team that wastes picks. Our draft record is pretty good. It isn't 100%, of course, but no one bats 100%.
              People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

              Originally posted by IrishPacer
              Empty vessels make the most noise.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TheDavisBrothers View Post

                Yeah, because our string of first round exits is SO impressive...

                As for the Hawks specifically, letís take a look at the past 4 seasons compared to the Pacers...

                conference finals
                second round
                first round
                missed playoffs

                missed playoffs
                first round
                first round
                first round

                Which is better? On top of that the Hawks now have a bunch of promising young players in Young, Collins, Huerter, Prince, Spellman, Bembry.
                3 of the 4 years you mentioned were under the horrible management of Larry Bird. I agree with your point about the Hawks but let's not put Bird's awfulness on Pritchard. We didn't expect to be a playoff last year. We were supposed to be rebuilding and be in the lotto for a few years. And yet we won 48 games, out of nowhere. Yes, we were knocked out in the first round but that's because we were the unlucky SOB who had to play LeBron in the first round. This year, we were on pace to win more than 50 games and we lose Vic to a freak injury. Basically, we have been a team that has done most things right but our (lack of) luck has ****ed us over.
                People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                Empty vessels make the most noise.

                Comment


                • #23
                  If you are unhappy about the way the franchise is going to handle this upcoming trade deadline, and believe me you will be, you really need not put the blame on KP. Sadly the specter of Donnie Walsh looms large over this franchise and has since the 1984 season. I wrote a post several years ago officially declaring the days of Walsh over when he officially moved from his corner seat up to the suites when Bird finally took over and then declared his influence dead when he left for the Knicks. I thought that Bird would run everything how he wanted and we would go a different way and for a short time it seemed like we did.

                  I was wrong.

                  Once Walsh came back from the Knicks he moved to a new seat but in the old section where he used to be. He has now for several years sat on the front row of section 2. There are two seats in his row. His and when he is in town Herb Simon. I see video on the news and when I look in the stands who do I see sitting there? Walsh.

                  Does he run the day to day operations anymore? No and he hasn't for several years.

                  However I do believe he still is the first person that Herb consults when he is contemplating what to do. So whenever Bird would come in with an idea my gut feeling is that Herb would ask Donnie his opinion if it was something big. I feel KP would still get this treatment today.

                  I'm not saying Walsh would say no to things or interfere necessarily. But if you get frustrated at the slow deliberate (cheap) way the pacers do things then I'm telling you it's because Herb has listened to Walsh since 1984 and trusts him above almost anyone else.

                  BTW, there are lots and lots and lots of people who adore Walsh and the way he does things, we used to call the Walsh Warriors. If you want to think about how Walsh operates think of it in this baseball analogy. He plays the game by hitting singles and every now and then a double. But he never swings for home runs or triples. Now that will win you lots of games, its not always fun to watch but you can win games you shouldn't win by doing it. However whenever you come up against teams who swing for the fence and they connect, they will beat you every time. Now the Walsh Warriors will tell you that sure lots of people want to swing for the fences and miss, which is true, so they are always comfortable with winning more than not but never getting to the top.

                  I happen to know BillS is in London right now and not reading so I won't be chastised by him today. Probably when he gets back.

                  Either way let's just look at the past. When Pritchard had an owner who had an endless pocketbook he made trades and did not stand pat very often. He is in Indiana an other than having the Paul George trade forced upon him he has been inactive in the trade market and has gone garbage bin shopping in free agency (yes I'm saying all three from last summer are garbage even though I like KOQ but if were not going to use him then it was a garbage signing).

                  So do you think its because KP decided that the way he did it out in Portland didn't work? Or is it he has to play under a set of rules laid down to him by his boss who is using a template drawn up 30 years ago by a person he trusts above all others in basketball.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                    Our GM does realize how to compete. There is a reason why he refused to give a two year deal this last summer. There is a reason why he only gave out 2 year deals the summer before the last one. He is aiming for this off-season and wants to use that cap space to get a good player either via FA (not very likely, we don't have a good track record when it comes to attracting FAs) or via a trade. We are well-positioned as a team. We have a very good core that consists of 3 players (two of them already locked up in long term deals and the third still on his rookie contract), we have enough cap space to sign a max deal (especially if we trade away or renounce the rights to our expirings) and we'll probably have a pick in the 18-23 range.

                    Teams aren't lining up to give us lottery picks or good, young prospects for our expirings. Maybe we can nab a player that a team has given up on. Maybe we can nab a late pick from a contender that could use Thad, Bojan or CoJo. We aren't going to get anything great, though. A late pick and maybe some reclamation projects. That's it. I do believe that this is the direction that we need to go and I'll be elated if this happens but the expectations that you've set up in your OP aren't realistic. Our expirings don't have that kind of value. Expirings, in general, don't have the kind of value that they used to have. They can't net you good picks anymore. The days of Billy King are over. Teams have smartened up.

                    I do agree that we can find good players late in the draft. I'd just look at our recent draftees as proof of that. Aaron Holiday was a great pick at #23. Alize Johnson was a great pick at #50. Edmond Sumner was a great pick at #57 last year. Heck, even TJ Leaf, while definitely not a good pick, has shown that he belongs in this league and that he can have a decent career as a back-up. We have never been a team that wastes picks. Our draft record is pretty good. It isn't 100%, of course, but no one bats 100%.
                    I donít think my expectations are too high at all. I said maybe even a lotto pick, Look what Denverís late first rounders and second rounders did tonight. Because they scorched Houston. 19th pick Malik Beasley had 35 points. 2nd Rounder Monte Morris had 18 pts 6 reb 8ast. And Undrafted Torrey Craig had 22 points. They still have Jokic as a 2nd rounder and Harris as a 19th pick. Thatís my expectations. Holiday and Sumner have been good, hopefully with more minutes they can improve. I just hope we can turn our assets into something positive for the future and if and when Vic is ready he gets added to it like DG shouldíve been added along with Paul. Itís a lot bad luck of course I just hope KP is aggressive bcuz imho he needs to be.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by bumpercar3 View Post

                      I donít think my expectations are too high at all. I said maybe even a lotto pick, Look what Denverís late first rounders and second rounders did tonight. Because they scorched Houston. 19th pick Malik Beasley had 35 points. 2nd Rounder Monte Morris had 18 pts 6 reb 8ast. And Undrafted Torrey Craig had 22 points. They still have Jokic as a 2nd rounder and Harris as a 19th pick. Thatís my expectations. Holiday and Sumner have been good, hopefully with more minutes they can improve. I just hope we can turn our assets into something positive for the future and if and when Vic is ready he gets added to it like DG shouldíve been added along with Paul. Itís a lot bad luck of course I just hope KP is aggressive bcuz imho he needs to be.
                      I want to touch on two subjects. KP's aggressiveness and the success of Denver's late picks.

                      1) KP has been aggressive in his previous stints as a GM. I agree that he should be aggressive now and I believe that he will be. If he's not aggressive then the theory that Peck posted in the previous post makes a lot of sense.

                      2) The success that Denver's late picks are having is unprecedented. No team has ever had so many late picks produce the way they're producing right now. Setting something unprecedented as an expectation is setting your expectations way too high, imo. Also, I need to point out two things about the success of those players.

                      The first thing is that they're playing with Nikola Jokić, who is an offensive savant. He is the second best passing big I've ever seen (Arvydas being the best). He is simply a genius when it comes to creating buckets for his teammates and seeing scoring opportunities before anyone else does. We don't have any player of that caliber on the roster.

                      The second thing is that Denver actually has a coach that can coach offense. We don't. Our offense is extremely basic and it lacks creativity. Even if we had the exact same players that Denver has, they wouldn't be producing like that. We aren't putting our players in the position to succeed the same way that Denver does.
                      People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                      Originally posted by IrishPacer
                      Empty vessels make the most noise.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        To followup on what Peck was saying, being the Pacers' GM (or whatever the official title is of Pritchard that we used to call the GM), isn't a bad gig. There's absolutely no pressure to contend for a championship. There is pressure to contend for the 8th spot in the playoffs, and you better make at least that more times than not, but that's not so hard if you're not trying to be the best team in the league.

                        So if you don't have a passion for winning a championship, or can put that on the backburner to have a comfortable, low risk job, then the Pacers is the team to do it.
                        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                        ------

                        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

                        -John Wooden

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by croz24 View Post
                          I agree that we should target and go hard after guys like Josh Hart, Thon Maker, Josh Jackson, etc or even draft picks (would LOVE De'Andre Hunter out of UVA). Going into this offseason with all of our "cap flexibility" will get us nowhere. In going after at least one of those young players, the Pacers would still have plenty of opportunity and money to stay competitive this year on into the future. Zero logic in standing pat.
                          I've said it multiple times:
                          O'Quinn + 2nd Rounder for Thon Maker
                          Bogdanovic for Josh Hart + Lance Stephenson
                          Joseph + 1st Round Pick for Josh Jackson

                          I like your thinking here.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                            I want to touch on two subjects. KP's aggressiveness and the success of Denver's late picks.

                            1) KP has been aggressive in his previous stints as a GM. I agree that he should be aggressive now and I believe that he will be. If he's not aggressive then the theory that Peck posted in the previous post makes a lot of sense.

                            2) The success that Denver's late picks are having is unprecedented. No team has ever had so many late picks produce the way they're producing right now. Setting something unprecedented as an expectation is setting your expectations way too high, imo. Also, I need to point out two things about the success of those players.

                            The first thing is that they're playing with Nikola Jokić, who is an offensive savant. He is the second best passing big I've ever seen (Arvydas being the best). He is simply a genius when it comes to creating buckets for his teammates and seeing scoring opportunities before anyone else does. We don't have any player of that caliber on the roster.

                            The second thing is that Denver actually has a coach that can coach offense. We don't. Our offense is extremely basic and it lacks creativity. Even if we had the exact same players that Denver has, they wouldn't be producing like that. We aren't putting our players in the position to succeed the same way that Denver does.
                            Those are all very good points. Lol.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nuntius View Post

                              Our GM does realize how to compete. There is a reason why he refused to give a two year deal this last summer. There is a reason why he only gave out 2 year deals the summer before the last one. He is aiming for this off-season and wants to use that cap space to get a good player either via FA (not very likely, we don't have a good track record when it comes to attracting FAs) or via a trade. We are well-positioned as a team. We have a very good core that consists of 3 players (two of them already locked up in long term deals and the third still on his rookie contract), we have enough cap space to sign a max deal (especially if we trade away or renounce the rights to our expirings) and we'll probably have a pick in the 18-23 range.

                              Teams aren't lining up to give us lottery picks or good, young prospects for our expirings. Maybe we can nab a player that a team has given up on. Maybe we can nab a late pick from a contender that could use Thad, Bojan or CoJo. We aren't going to get anything great, though. A late pick and maybe some reclamation projects. That's it. I do believe that this is the direction that we need to go and I'll be elated if this happens but the expectations that you've set up in your OP aren't realistic. Our expirings don't have that kind of value. Expirings, in general, don't have the kind of value that they used to have. They can't net you good picks anymore. The days of Billy King are over. Teams have smartened up.

                              I do agree that we can find good players late in the draft. I'd just look at our recent draftees as proof of that. Aaron Holiday was a great pick at #23. Alize Johnson was a great pick at #50. Edmond Sumner was a great pick at #57 last year. Heck, even TJ Leaf, while definitely not a good pick, has shown that he belongs in this league and that he can have a decent career as a back-up. We have never been a team that wastes picks. Our draft record is pretty good. It isn't 100%, of course, but no one bats 100%.
                              I do love the optimism in this post, but the only people we will offer max money to & have a chance of getting are those guys who are not worth that kind of money. Sure we could have the room to sign a KD or a Kyrie, but there is no way in the world that they come here because they can get that money from "bigger" & "better" franchises.
                              Guys like Tobias Harris or Khris Middleton are the ones that will be looking at, given their current situations it'll probably cost us near $30mil to drag Harris out of LA where they are playing well (probably not a play off team) or Middleton from what is quickly becoming the best team in the East.

                              In my mind there are 2 options for us that I like & the 3rd is to stay the same which I truly hate the thought of.

                              #1: Try create a little Dallas like trade, throw out a bit of our youth, picks & expiring to bring in an immediate talent upgrade + take on some of their unwanted salary to secure it.
                              i.e Jrue + Solo for matching expiring deals + 2 of 1st Round pick, Leaf or Holiday. Pelicans save more cap space to play with in the Summer.

                              #2: Smaller deals to get some youth on board, likely from contending teams who have a need for specific asset. Bogdanovic would likely be sort after by Lakers, Philadelphia or Milwaukee. Young could offer a lot to teams like Houston or Portland, these guys could give us their 1st Round Pick & maybe a little of their unwanted salary, but we start collecting assets for our own trade or draft some more players. (Knight + Pick for Young or Harkless + Pick for Young)

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by festar35 View Post

                                I do love the optimism in this post, but the only people we will offer max money to & have a chance of getting are those guys who are not worth that kind of money. Sure we could have the room to sign a KD or a Kyrie, but there is no way in the world that they come here because they can get that money from "bigger" & "better" franchises.
                                Guys like Tobias Harris or Khris Middleton are the ones that will be looking at, given their current situations it'll probably cost us near $30mil to drag Harris out of LA where they are playing well (probably not a play off team) or Middleton from what is quickly becoming the best team in the East.
                                Agreed. That's exactly what I meant by the FA and trade distinction in my post. I don't believe that we'll be able to use our cap space optimally by signing someone at FA. We just have never been able to attract great FAs. Trades, on the other hand, are what has always got us good players and it's also what KP specializes in. If we manage to get a great player in this off-season, it's gonna be via trade.

                                Originally posted by festar35 View Post
                                In my mind there are 2 options for us that I like & the 3rd is to stay the same which I truly hate the thought of.

                                #1: Try create a little Dallas like trade, throw out a bit of our youth, picks & expiring to bring in an immediate talent upgrade + take on some of their unwanted salary to secure it.
                                i.e Jrue + Solo for matching expiring deals + 2 of 1st Round pick, Leaf or Holiday. Pelicans save more cap space to play with in the Summer.

                                #2: Smaller deals to get some youth on board, likely from contending teams who have a need for specific asset. Bogdanovic would likely be sort after by Lakers, Philadelphia or Milwaukee. Young could offer a lot to teams like Houston or Portland, these guys could give us their 1st Round Pick & maybe a little of their unwanted salary, but we start collecting assets for our own trade or draft some more players. (Knight + Pick for Young or Harkless + Pick for Young)
                                Agreed, this is what I'd also like to see. Especially, option #2. Using our expirings to acquire some assets out of essentially nothing (since we didn't up anything for guys like DC and Bojan) and then try to combine those assets to make a move for a bigger target.

                                Want to know the player I'd target? Taurean Prince. No, he isn't a big name or anything but I believe that he fits our team. He has good size (6'8 with a 6'11 wingspan), he is still young (24 years old, one more rookie contract year left), and plays both ends of the floor. Good defender, good scorer (not a #1 option for sure but could become a #2 or #3 option), respectable outside shooter (37% for his career) and he also gives us some positional flexibility because he can slide in as a PF. I believe that he fits both our needs (we'd need a good defensive wing if we were to start Domas and Myles together as I believe we should) and our timeline.
                                People who try to win arguments are the worst. The point of an argument isn't to find a winner, it is to find the truth.

                                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                                Empty vessels make the most noise.

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