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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

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Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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The Pacers ownership and front office are either incapable or not willing to make the decisions that will bring us a championship.

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  • The Pacers ownership and front office are either incapable or not willing to make the decisions that will bring us a championship.

    I first would like to say that I've enjoyed watching Paul George on league pass, and wonder if maybe he didn't have a legitimate reason for leaving. After all he just watched OKC willing to pay luxury tax to retain Jerami Grant after getting torched by the Jazz in the first round. I seem to recall us being unwilling to enter the luxury tax with much better teams during the Paul George era. Next I would like to say that teams should only be doing one of two things: contending for titles or taking the necessary steps to contend for titles. This does not mean you need to tank for 6 years and acquire endless assets while conducting trial and error experiments with overlooked players. It does mean that you need to be smart, opportunistic, and self aware. An example of this would be the Mavericks in 2016-2017. They decided in the second half of the season that they were not in realistic contention and that it was time to shut it down. Just from focusing on development down the stretch they were able to draft Dennis Smith Jr. and decided it was worth it to take a year and see if he could develop into the superstar they need to win another title. The time used on development was valuable because not only did it show that Smith Jr. was not what they were looking for, it allowed them to draft Luka Doncic. They still have their veterans and free agents, they basically got off track for a year and a half and picked up a valuable trade chip in Smith Jr. and another potential superstar in Doncic. Now ask yourself what the Pacers have accomplished in the last year and a half through always "playing to win": just first round exits. Teams run similar sets and styles. It is a pace and space league, where you must be able to defend at a high level. Teams without these qualities do not win. To build a contender it is imperative to have players that are going to improve at higher rates than players on teams that you are in competition with. It is imperative to have young dynamic talent, as well as established vets that are on top of their game. It is also a league driven by marketing. Refs can legally favor whomever they are told as long as calls are not made intentionally to effect the outcome of gambling lines. This means superstars are imperative as well. So lets take a look a two teams and ten of their well known players, what type of player they are and how they were acquired. Because I believe this will illustrate how the Pacers ownership and front office are not capable of acquiring the players we need to win a championship. I think we need young athletic and versatile players with qualities like switchability, getting up and down the court quickly, closing out quickly, being able to play multiple roles on offense.

    Toronto Rapotors
    Jonas Valanciunas- 5th pick 2011. old school big, taken when you still needed old school bigs
    Delon Wright- 20th pick 2015. gaurd
    Kawhi Leonard- acqcuired for Derozan. Defensive wing with scoring ability, Superstar
    Danny Green-acquired for Derozan. Defensive wing with floor spacing ability.
    Pascal Saikam- 27th pick in 2016. Dynamic defensive big.
    OG Anunoby- 23rd pick in 2017. Dynamic defensive wing.
    Kyle Lowry- acquired in 2013 for pick 12. Playmaker. Scorer. Ultra floor spacer. All Star.
    Serge Ibaka- acquired for Terrance Ross. Stretch 5, rim protector
    Norm Powell- acquired for Vasquez, was the 46th pick by the Bucks. young defensive wing with scoring capability
    VanVleet-Undrafted. acquired from their own g-league affiliate

    If you look at the best players on their team they were all acquired through the draft or through trade. This means the Raptors know the type of player they want, and they go out and get it. Now lets take a look at the Pacers roster.

    Victor Oladipo- acquired in a trade for Paul George, but this trade was a result of PG wanting out, not us feeling Oladipo was a better fit. Dynamic two way gaurd. All Star
    Domantas Sobonis- Same. rebounder/scorer. Old school big.
    Myles Turner- 11th pick in the 2015 draft. dynamic rim protecting, floor spacing big. We were in lotto because PG broke his leg
    Cory Joseph-Free Agency. Ball handler. Defensive player.
    Tyreke Evans-Free Agency. Ball Handler.
    Bogdan Bogdonavich-Free Agency. Scorer. Floor spacer. Defensive player.
    Daren Collison-Free Agency. Ball handler.
    Doug McDermott-Free Agency-3 pt specialist
    Thad Young-Traded for 20th pick in 2016. Defensive player.
    TJ Leaf- pick 18 of the 2017 draft. Stretch 4.
    Aaron Holiday- 23rd pick of the 2018 draft. I'm not sure what type of player Holiday is, just that I hope he's good. lol.


    It is really hard to describe some of these guys in a few words but my point is the Pacers players are entirely a result of who fell in their lap. Our entire roster is free agents, players acquired because PG forced a trade, and inconsequential draft picks. Compare this in contrast to the Raptors going out and getting what they need to bring a championship to Toronto. They have all the ingredients that they need. You need youth, and they have it. You need good role playing vets and they have them. They also have the Stars. I'm sure I will get roasted for this thread. I know I have done some weird threads all in good fun but this one to me is serious because I'm honestly considering no longer being a Pacer fan. Being a Pacer fan is part of my identity and I don't want to just start rooting for the Thunder, but if we are not even trying to win what are we doing?

  • #2
    To answer your last line question-
    They are trying to always make the playoffs, never be out of the hunt for the playoffs, and sell the playoffs like the NCAA March Madness as if everyone who makes the playoffs has a "chance" to win it all.
    The goal is the same each and every year: Make the playoffs. Never risk a a run at the playoffs for a potential championship run in the future if the short term can't include making a run at the playoffs.
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

    Comment


    • #3
      So true. I guess I'm forced with a decision then because as long as people buy this product, they have no incentive to change it.

      Comment


      • #4
        This sounds like something that you should have posted at the start of training camp.

        Were you thinking the same thing about a month ago prior to Dipo's and Myles ( subsequent ) injuries when the Pacers were doing fairly good?

        I see what you are suggesting ( the Pacers build a Team to just "get by" and not take the chances necessary to actually win ) simply because this is the same rant that pops up after the trade deadline every season.

        For myself, I'm not going to form a final opinion until the start of Training Camp in the Summer of 2019. I knew that this was another 3 year plan that would take time to endure. I am sure that you and others will be really pissed if the FO doesn't make a major trade in the coming weeks before the trade deadline. But ( as I posted in one of the other threads ) I have no problem if we do stand pat. If the opportunity presents itself to make a move that makes sense, then take it ( with the assumption that it won't significantly impact our ability to continue to improve in the offseason ). I have no idea what ( if anything ) that the Pacers will do to improve on this Team before the trade deadline.

        I just know that as long as they exercise sound judgement when it comes to Smart Cap Management ( which they have done for the last 2 seasons ) going into the Summer of 2019, then they will have the option to evaluate what they have and have the option to continue to improve the roster. I think that we are 1/2 way there when it comes to a building a long-term core and have the means to build upon that in the summer of 2019.

        This may sound boring, but making rash and stupid moves will put the Team in the same position as the Wizards or the Blazers. I'm not going to suggest that the FO will continue this "We just build a Team to get into the Playoffs" mentality or not ( because it is entirely possible that they will ), but I will give them the benefit of the doubt until the Summer when I see what they decide to do. I just don't think that the proverbial "cake" has been fully baked yet. It will take another 7 months for this cake to bake. I admit that there is a chance that end result will taste bland, but I will wait until then to make a judgement.

        Last edited by CableKC; 01-19-2019, 03:33 AM.
        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CableKC View Post
          This sounds like something that you should have posted at the start of training camp.

          Were you thinking the same thing about a month ago prior to Dipo's and Myles ( subsequent ) injuries when the Pacers were doing fairly good?

          I see what you are suggesting ( the Pacers build a Team to just "get by" and not take the chances necessary to actually win ) simply because this is the same rant that pops up after the trade deadline every season.

          For myself, I'm not going to form a final opinion until the start of Training Camp in the Summer of 2019. I knew that this was another 3 year plan that would take time to endure. I am sure that you and others will be really pissed if the FO doesn't make a major trade in the coming weeks before the trade deadline. But ( as I posted in one of the other threads ) I have no problem if we do stand pat. If the opportunity presents itself to make a move that makes sense, then take it ( with the assumption that it won't significantly impact our ability to continue to improve in the offseason ). I have no idea what ( if anything ) that the Pacers will do to improve on this Team before the trade deadline.

          I just know that as long as they exercise sound judgement when it comes to Smart Cap Management ( which they have done for the last 2 seasons ) going into the Summer of 2019, then they will have the option to evaluate what they have and have the option to continue to improve the roster. I think that we are 1/2 way there when it comes to a building a long-term core and have the means to build upon that in the summer of 2019.

          This may sound boring, but making rash and stupid moves will put the Team in the same position as the Wizards or the Blazers. I'm not going to suggest that the FO will continue this "We just build a Team to get into the Playoffs" mentality or not ( because it is entirely possible that they will ), but I will give them the benefit of the doubt until the Summer when I see what they decide to do. I just don't think that the proverbial "cake" has been fully baked yet. It will take another 7 months for this cake to bake. I admit that there is a chance that end result will taste bland, but I will wait until then to make a judgement.
          The only time I would get pissed is at a missed opportunity. Opportunities come from draft, trade, and FAs. The difference is trades and drafting takes more skill. FAs have already been assessed for multiple years.Thereís a few dozen FAs each year but thereís thousands of trade scenarios and draft prospects. Thatís y I compared the way Toronto built to the way we built. I already know we wonít make a trade. Our FO is not skilled enough to make a trade that improves our team at the deadline.

          Comment


          • #6
            Low-risk, Low-reward is the motto of this team. It has been like that for as long as I've been a Pacers fan. I personally think the current roster is bound for another first round exit and I don't see us beating the Raptors Celtics 76ers and even Bucks.
            Originally posted by Piston Prince
            Bobcat fans telling us to cheer up = epic fail season
            "Josh Smith Re-building the city of Detroit one brick at a time"

            Comment


            • #7
              I hate to say it again, but it is true.

              Playing it safe is not what I want, as a fan. I would rather die 1000 dramatic deaths than the long, agonizing, slow death that comes with rooting for the team with zero chance to ever do anything meaningful in the league. We put way too much into it to get no respect. Its sad and frustrating to even take part.

              I am not seeing anything that really excites me about the Pacers organization right now, despite the descent winning percentage. I feel like they are gonna be picking up the scraps in free agency every year. And they are unwilling to make the most out of their only other resource to add premium talent.

              They are doing whats easiest. Just focusing on beating the average/poor teams to compile a good enough record to promote the team and make money. They arent even trying to beat the elite anymore. So is the record really impressive? So you beat Charlotte and Brooklyn and Memphis......nobody really cares about that.
              "Don't get caught watchin' the paint dry"

              Comment


              • #8
                So the question is, what is keeping you invested in the team. Fandom is supposed to be fun, a break from the real world. If you are so miserable rooting for a team that is never going to accomplish what you want them to, then you might as well spend your time doing something else, or rooting for Lebron, wherever he goes. I figured out after the Cubs won that things were different. I was always a decent enough fan, but when they won the championship, it was like mission complete. I now hardly pay attention to baseball. I guess for me, it is all about the journey, and less about the destination.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, the Pacer organization has never shown the willingness to flat-out tank. And, honestly, we never have been, nor will we be, a destination that attracts top-shelf talent in free agency. When you put those two things together, our trajectory is not surprising. I wish Simon were willing to go over the tax line when we are in range of being a legit contender. If so, we might be thinking about that sometime in the near future. So, I don't disagree with your premise. On the other hand, I'd much rather be us than, say, the Detroit Pistons.

                  I wish we found a way to get our young talent more developmental minutes. Why the hell Tyreke Evans plays over Holiday, for example, is absolutely unfathomable. And Tyreke was clearly a poor FA addition despite cautious optimism by some of us. Why we took Leaf (?) over Anunoby I don't get. Especially when Leaf can't even crack the back-up rotation. Now you've got Leaf, McDermott, and Bojan, all of whom can shoot, but only one of whom does anything else well, particularly defense and look like he plays with any sense of purpose.

                  Don't really disagree with your premise and it does get frustrating sometimes, but not unhappy with the product we usually put on the floor either. Do, though, wish we would be more aggressive about tax when we are close, try to increase the athleticism/defensive potential throughout the roster in our acquisitions, find minutes for young talent, and be willing to use our assets to bring back talented pieces that fit better.
                  I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                  -Emiliano Zapata

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The NBA could change the rules to prevent tanking. They could tie salaries (players and coaches) and revenue sharing (owners) directly to the W/L record in the regular season. You would see a lot more consistent effort.

                    But the NBA doesn't do that because they don't care about competition. It's a sports league in name only. They do care about money which is why they are moving toward gambling.
                    Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by kent beckley View Post
                      So the question is, what is keeping you invested in the team. Fandom is supposed to be fun, a break from the real world. If you are so miserable rooting for a team that is never going to accomplish what you want them to, then you might as well spend your time doing something else, or rooting for Lebron, wherever he goes. I figured out after the Cubs won that things were different. I was always a decent enough fan, but when they won the championship, it was like mission complete. I now hardly pay attention to baseball. I guess for me, it is all about the journey, and less about the destination.
                      This is a good question. I think many here have been NBA fans for a lifetime and leaving is like leaving your family. So it's not that easy to just "spend your time doing something else". These fans still drive some enjoyment out of the current version of the NBA enough to follow the team. Personally, I don't watch all the games anymore because of the many issues that I have with today's game. I do watch the more important games. But it has taken a bite out of my interest. Doesn't mean I'm not interested at all though.

                      Edit: ...and don't conclude that people are "miserable" about the state of the NBA. Many of us are just observing its downfall and have many other fulfilling things going on. We tap some NBA now and then to the extent we enjoy it. So, it's not an all or nothing thing like a number of people on this board assume.
                      Last edited by BlueNGold; 01-19-2019, 10:33 AM.
                      Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I kinda agree with some of what was said in this post. Under Pritchard we have been very low risk low reward. This trade deadline will day it all. We have some very tradeable contracts and if we donít move some I will be disappointed.

                        Aint the same time time it could be worse. We could be a teams like the magic or wizards that have made horrible decisions which has set their teams back some years.

                        imo Pritchard is one of the better gms in the league. Until he proves us wrong we should trust him. If there is a deal out there that will make us better Iím sure he will do it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Um, but Pacer fans are never happy. We have bad years the FO sux, good years the FO sux cause we can't win a championship. Bird trades a broken down Granger for two player players that can be used, FO sux. Take a flyer on Bynum, office sux. When the Pacers have bad years, people stop coming to watch them.

                          Few things I do agree with is, our drafting has been pretty horrible (minus this last year) (but do have to admit the Turner pick was much better than imagined). Another thing is coaches. Take away Carlisle and Brown we haven't had a top notch coach. Bird did his thing but he had talented teams. Frank had his moment at the right time in the NBA. Nate sticks with players no matter what, which sucks cause he was hired to hold players accountable for poor play. IMO, we need either a top-notch coach or a young up-coming coach not afraid to take risks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jrwannabe View Post
                            Um, but Pacer fans are never happy. We have bad years the FO sux, good years the FO sux cause we can't win a championship. Bird trades a broken down Granger for two player players that can be used, FO sux. Take a flyer on Bynum, office sux. When the Pacers have bad years, people stop coming to watch them.

                            Few things I do agree with is, our drafting has been pretty horrible (minus this last year) (but do have to admit the Turner pick was much better than imagined). Another thing is coaches. Take away Carlisle and Brown we haven't had a top notch coach. Bird did his thing but he had talented teams. Frank had his moment at the right time in the NBA. Nate sticks with players no matter what, which sucks cause he was hired to hold players accountable for poor play. IMO, we need either a top-notch coach or a young up-coming coach not afraid to take risks.
                            The Pacers don't have enough talent to warrant a better coach. This team has a great record but other than the dark years with JOb, this team would lose to just about every other era. The DWest/PG team would beat it like a drum. The JO/Artest team would destroy this team. The MIller teams would destroy this team. It's not that people are always dissatisfied. It's that right now this team wins in the regular season and everyone knows it has no chance in the playoffs. Frankly, if the measure you seek is success in the playoffs, you might as well not watch this year and wait until Pritchard or the next GM finds the courage to make the moves necessary to improve the team.
                            Vnzla81: Yep pretty much, they cut him because they were going to get "their guy" they couldn't get option 1,2,3,4,5 then they went to Lance he said "no thanks" and they had no other choice but to get Lance 2.0 for three times the cost.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jrwannabe View Post
                              Um, but Pacer fans are never happy. We have bad years the FO sux, good years the FO sux cause we can't win a championship. Bird trades a broken down Granger for two player players that can be used, FO sux. Take a flyer on Bynum, office sux. When the Pacers have bad years, people stop coming to watch them.

                              Few things I do agree with is, our drafting has been pretty horrible (minus this last year) (but do have to admit the Turner pick was much better than imagined). Another thing is coaches. Take away Carlisle and Brown we haven't had a top notch coach. Bird did his thing but he had talented teams. Frank had his moment at the right time in the NBA. Nate sticks with players no matter what, which sucks cause he was hired to hold players accountable for poor play. IMO, we need either a top-notch coach or a young up-coming coach not afraid to take risks.
                              I disagree, its not about whether you make moves or not, its about the timing. Our FO over the years had some good trades. Mcroberts for O.J Mayo which didnt happen would have been a good deal. Hibbert for Rondo in the CP3 veto trade also made sense. Signing West was a good idea. Signing Ellis was a good idea but it didn't work. Granger trade was bad because it shook the chemistry of a team that was already doing very well. In this deadline we need to acquire assets for our expiring contracts because in my opinion we're going for another first-round exit. Tyreke isn't a good fit and needs to be traded, Collison isn't a starting point guard, Bogdanovic isn't a long-term solution. If we can get real value from them we should get it done, but my feeling as a fan is like we're never real buyers at those times
                              Originally posted by Piston Prince
                              Bobcat fans telling us to cheer up = epic fail season
                              "Josh Smith Re-building the city of Detroit one brick at a time"

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