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I’ve been following the pacers since the late 90s and it always seems this team is always in the playoffs but never has a team that really has a chance to win it all minus a few years with the year of the brawl probably being our best chance. Am I completely wrong and just remembering things wrong? If I’m right what is the reason? Does our owner only care about being good enough to keep butts in the seats? I know some franchises have had it way worse than us over the last few decades so I’m not complaining but in today’s nba or any time really you almost have to be bad and get high draft pics of be located in prime areas like LA, miami, or NY in order to lure free agents and usually that comes with having a super good player you got high in the draft which brings me to my previous point. My other question is what can the pacers do to finally get over the hump with our team being the way it is constructed (we should make playoffs but not win it all and Thus have a mid draft pick and we have no real trade pieces , how do we get over this hump?
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Welcome to Pacers basketball.Originally posted by Reggieslegkick View Post
Your not wrong and your not imagining things. There are many reasons why things are the way they are and not all of them are nefarious in nature. Does the owner only care about being good enough to keep butts in the seats? Only? No. But mostly? Honestly, yes.
It is hard to blame him though. At the end of the day this is a business and he is not going to **** away his family's inheritance by going through years of horrid attendance just so he can have a couple/few years of high attendance while we are contenders. We have a solid core fan base but an absolutely abysmal casual fan base. So on the one hand as long as they can sell it to the public that there is always a chance and that making the playoffs is the key they can keep the fieldhouse anywhere from 65-75% full on most nights with a few sell outs each season (depending on how good the team is). The owner is not wrong btw, whenever we do not have a playoff caliber team the city just does not show up at all. I stared following the team in the mid 70's (as luck would have it the year after the merger) and bought my first set of tickets in 1985. I've seen what the attendance is when the team is not good. We used to have curtains in the upper decks at MSA to obstruct the fact that there was nobody there. and even then the lower portion was never full. That is unless the effing Celtics came to town and then it was a sea of green. We had a really bad patch right after the brawl for about 3-4 years (the O'Brien years) where we were lucky to have 8K people in the fieldhouse. The attendance may never have been announced that low but let me assure you that there were nights that several of us Digest members could yell at each other from across the way because there was nobody there.
So while I'm like you and really hate the mediocre team building we do it really is hard to fault Herb for not wanting to have to eat the cost of years of low attendance in the hopes that we might (MIGHT) build a contender via the draft.
Also while I realize that building through the draft is really the best way to do it and typically high draft picks are the way to go, there is no guarantee that tanking for a high draft pick will guarantee you a good/great player or team.
I mean look at the Wizards. That is a team that was in perpetual rebuild mode and then got the number 1 overall pick and chose who was at the time pretty much the consensus # 1 player in John Wall. The were able to surround him with a couple of other high lottery picks and here they are a few years later and they are looking to have to blow it up again and start over and over the time they had the team together the accomplished nothing. You can add the Twolves, Suns, Kings, Magic & Bulls as teams that are constantly drafting high in the lottery and never are able to do anything with it. For Every LeBron James there is an Andrew Wiggins. Now some people are in love with "the process" and they get all types of national attention because of Embiid and their plethora of young talent. Well prior to that trade they were no better than we were and in fact by % are worse than we are. If they don't make an NBA finals with this roster (barring significant injuries) and do no better than we do can anyone really say the process is any better than what we did? In fact it could be argued that our fans never had to suffer being the laughing stock of the league for 3 or so years. However if they do make it to the finals then that changes things.
All of that being said let's not forget this. Our best player was the # 2 overall pick in his draft. Our second best player was chosen at # 11 (lottery pick, late but lottery nonentheless) So yea if you really want top tier talent you need to have access to high draft choices typically.
Now how do we get out of this treadmill to nowhere that we are on? It's much harder than people think. As you stated we are Indiana and to this day David West is the best free agent we have ever signed and even then he was coming off of a devastating injury so not every team was beating down his door. People have their hopes up for this upcoming offseason but I'm telling them they are in for a world of disappointment because we have to many people going out of contract and we will NOT be able to sign any players that are going to demand max contracts because next off season several clubs are going to have cap space and we will not be on any superstars short list to come to. Thus once again we will have to go bargain bin or as we are often want to do dumpster diving to sign players who have one or two decent traits but are severely flawed in other areas.
The only real hope that our franchise has is trades. However last off season when they should have been very active in the trade market they did the most Pacer thing they could have done. Nothing. They then signed a player who has been on 4 teams in 5 years at the stroke of midnight and then went out and got a player who has been in the NBA for 9 years and had exactly 4 games of playoff experience, none of that experience was wins btw. Then they wen't and signed the 3rd string center of the New York Knicks. Even the biggest blue and gold fan on here right now is asking themselves if this really is as good as these guys are? They had trade able assets last off season, nothing that would have netted Kawhil Leonard but they could have made some moves. But that was then this is now. How do you go forward from here?
Well a couple of ways. One you can hope beyond hope that Aaron Holiday & Alize Johnson and possibly Edmond Sumners break out and give you a star quality player to play next to Victor. Not impossible but also not likely. Or you can package up what few assets you have (not named Oladipo) and hope to get either a young player who will blow up or for veterans who's team is underperforming and hope that a change of scenery helps.
Examples of these would be sending Darren Collison, Aaron Holiday and T J Leaf to the Suns for Josh Jackson and whatever bad contract you would have to take to make it work. You then have to hope that Josh Jackson turns into a good player. Of course you could be burnt because its possible that Holliday becomes a good player. I'm just using that as an example btw, not saying to do it. Or you trade major assets taking back a bad contract but a veteran player who is still youngish and pray they can rejuvenate their careers here. Look to the Wizards for this, although I'm not sure we either have the assets or even the desire to do anything with them.
I'm typing all of this doom and gloom and yet right now we are setting at 3 in the East. So most people are going to say we are nuts for acting like there is anything wrong. However I just don't believe this team has legs to go deep into the playoffs and I do NOT want to wait around again for another summer where they are promising us prime rib and then serve us gristle. I would much rather them be proactive right now and take a small hit early in the season so that we can either make a deep playoff run this season or be set up to do it next season.
Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13 -
It’s the NBA. 16 of the last 20 titles have been won by 4 franchises (5 Lakers, 5 Spurs, 3 Warriors, 3 Heat). 24 of the last 28 titles have been won by just 6 franchises! Tag on 6 for Chicago and 2 for Houston to the aforementioned teams. I could keep going back into the 80’s with hunks of titles from the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons, but I think you get my drift.
The NBA is entertainment first and a competitive sports league a distant second. It’s always going to be this way, but the problem has been magnified in recent years. The 2014-18 stretch was by and large uncompetitive crap. Thank God we don’t have to witness any more Warriors-Cavs Finals, which was just abysmal garbage aside from 2016.
When you get past the select few teams who have dominated the NBA championship for so long, the Pacers have actually been one of the more successful franchises over the last 25 years. They’ve done far better than most - 7 ECFs and an NBA Finals appearance is nothing to sneeze at, especially since they’ve never had a top 5 player fall into their lap.
I get the frustrations though. The Pacers have felt “close” so many times and you always wonder if a move here or there could make the difference. This incredibly mediocre off-season was a big disappointment, especially since Lebron FINALLY won’t represent the East in The Finals anymore. This was the year to go for it. The Pacers’ moves were a total snooze fest.Last edited by Sollozzo; 11-15-2018, 09:03 AM.Comment
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I think what this shows is how one or two players can dominate a whole league and that to win you have to have one of those type players. Other than that you can have a rare team like Detroit or Houston sneak in a championship built on a team of good players. This what the Pacers have to shoot for or tank and get a Zion Williamson. Takes a lot of luck or you can be a coastal city(ie Boston/LA/GS) where every player wants to go to. Oklahoma had three of those special players on one team and let two get away. The deck is heavily stacked against the Pacers and other flyover franchises.Originally posted by Sollozzo View Post
All that being said the Pacers had some chances and through bad luck or player personnel decisions just missed an opportunity.
Last edited by owl; 11-15-2018, 11:45 AM.{o,o}
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With our luck we'd tank for 5 years and have the longest string of #5 picks ever.BillS
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...Comment
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Yes, just stay mediocre enough to pretend you are doing something to sell tickets and then try it again next year.Originally posted by Reggieslegkick View Post@WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!
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The question is did we have a chance to get Eric Gordon to add to the PG/West/Hibbert team and did we have a chance to get Kemba last year. If we did have a chance and we were the ones that turned it away, very much shame on us. But we will never know.
Last years free agency ended up being garbage but there wasnt anybody really available either. Aaron Gordon would have been ideal but not for anymore than 20m, which is what Orlando signed him for, which meant they would have matched. Julius Randle would have been nice but considering Sabonis is our center of the future i could see why having 2 bigs that cant shoot and are starting isnt ideal.
So yes we have to look at trades. But we should have been all over Kemba and Jimmy butler. We could have sent Minny Myles and Bogie and a first and it would have probably worked. Myles is really a 4 anyway. Yes Jimmy would cost a lot of money but he is surely more valuable than Myles and Bogie combined. Who comes available next? Who knows.Comment
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Truth is, I am just to a point where watching DC/Thad/Myles isnt palatable or fun anymore. Team is pretty good, but those three are not fun to watch and they consistenly set us up for failure at the start of games.Comment
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Thank you so much peck and everyone else for your replies. You guys totally answered my questions and then some.Comment
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I came to the realization a couple of years ago after seeing player after player not kept when they got really good because of not wanting to touch the LT that the Pacers would never compete for a title, our last shot at it was thrown into a fire by Ron Artest. Even then we got semi lucky to be that competitive after pushing Brad Miller out the door over what a Million dollars a year in savings. We had money for Jonathan Bender but hey.Comment
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It's the same old question and the same old arguments and the same points of view. Being over the LT just for the sake of being over the LT proves nothing. There are really no players whom we didn't retain who were no brainer locks to make us NBA finalists or push us over the top - certainly not Brad Miller. In most of those cases we would have been pretty much where we were anyway - general conference finals contenders barring extreme situations like The Brawl.
The argument continues to be that team ownership not willing to tank for 5 or 10 years doesn't care, that ownership not willing to go into the luxury tax "just to take a shot" doesn't care, that only certain players are worth taking chances on and taking chances on anyone else is a stupid move (that proves team ownership doesn't care) - even when there is deep division about who those players are. Any rumors involving the team going after players everyone agrees would be good are clearly false if they didn't succeed, and any rumors they might be interested in anyone who is a scrub are clearly true even if nothing else exists to back them up.
No one is going to change their mind. The general opinion of this fan forum will remain that the FO and ownership are stupid, venal, and don't care - and that such is the only possible reason why the easy task of winning a championship has never occurred here in the Pacers' NBA history while other teams have been showered with Finals wins and appearances by taking these simple and guaranteed steps the Pacers refuse to take.BillS
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...Comment
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Thats true, but at the same time look at all of the other franchises who have been mediocre to downright bad over the last 25 years while the Pacers have been pretty good. The Pacers have still had more success than most.Originally posted by Ragnar View Post
Not making excuses for bad moves as I am not a fan of the off-season we just had. But any fan of average NBA team who hopes their team will legitimately contend for a championship are watching the wrong sport. The NBA is dominated by a select few at the top who put a chokehold on the rest of the league for a while. That’s in part the nature of the sport, but it’s also become more pronounced in recent years with stars joining up together in excess.
In the next 25 years, the odds are tiny that the Pacers win a title unlesss they get lucky and get some Shaq or Lebron (who actually only won titles with teams they signed as FA’s with). It just is what it is because this is the NBA. It’s far more flashy entertainment than it is a serious competitive sports league.
I’ve become a big fan of the MLB playoffs in recent years because it’s superior in drama and unpredictability to the super boring and predictable snooze fest that has been the NBA playoffs for most of the last four years. Due to the nature of baseball as a sport, a team gets rewarded more for genuine team building instead of getting lucky enough to snag some stars that are virtually impossible to compete with for years like you see in the NBA. Baseball can be boring in the regular season, but the playoffs are incredibly excitingLast edited by Sollozzo; 11-15-2018, 02:15 PM.Comment
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This is the beauty of life. Two reasonable people can look at the exact same thing and have two opposite view points. You see where you see the board as viewing ownership as venal, stupid and don't care. I view the exact same board and see it with the majority of people who are willing to jump on a hand grenade for ownership and view every move or non move as the exact right thing to do. That every Pacer in the off season will improve and grow as a player and that every off season acquisition will improve the team the following year. That the Pacers as a team will always improve while other teams will just stagnate.Originally posted by BillS View Post
You know who is right here? Neither of us.
The board is filled with wide and varied viewpoints and by far and away is reasonable. Sure there are extremes on either side but they are just the loudest usually, not the rule.
Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13Comment
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If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all....Originally posted by BillS View Post
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At one time it was critical to pick in the top 5 of the draft. The Bulls and Spurs dynasties were based on that. But this is no longer the case.
Now it's about super teams where the best players decide to play on the same team. LeBron really started that movement. As long as that's happening, the NBA isn't really a competitive sports league. All teams must have a fair shot at acquiring talent and that's not true when players decide to centralize talent.
Yes, Golden State did win one title without them technically being a super team. Not until Durant. But still, Curry was picked at #7 and Thompson at #11 by Golden State so they had a fair amount of draft help combined with just the right mix of players acquired in trade. Now they would not have won the last two titles and in fact would have been eliminated in the WCF without Durant.
So, with very rare exception, it isn't about the draft. It's not about trades. It is entirely up to whether you can attract enough of the best players in the league to come to your town or you are not going to win. With the Pacers located in central Indiana, it's almost a guarantee they will never win a title until the rules change.Comment
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