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Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

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Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

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  • #1

    Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    I was going to just title this one "where I think the Pacers went wrong", but then I would have been going back to before when a lot of you were born.

    So I've gone with the above route instead, I thought it would be good for a laugh anyway. Becuase I have a feeling there won't be much laughing on this thread.

    First a disclaimer.

    ************************************************** ********
    WARNING, YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENTER A THREAD THAT WILL CRITICIZE PACERS MANAGEMENT FOR RECENT DECISIONS. WHILE THAT IS POPULAR TO DO ON HERE NOW, THIS WILL NOT BE OF THE "OH THEY GOT SCREWED IN THAT GOLDEN STATE TRADE" VEIN OF THINKING. SO IF YOU ARE A FAN OF THE FOLLOWING (JERMAINE O'NEAL, DONNIE WALSH, HERB SIMON, JAMAAL TINSLEY, STEPHEN JACKSON, RON ARTES OR ANTHONY JOHNSON) YOU WILL WANT TO SKIP THIS ENTIRE THREAD. ALSO IF WHEN I (MEANING ME PECK) POST AND HAVE STRONG OPINIONS AND THIS OFFENDS YOU TO YOUR VERY CORE PLEASE SKIP THIS ENTIRE THREAD AS WELL, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
    ************************************************** ********

    Ok, if your still here you either have an open mind, are looking for a fight or just have nothing better to do.

    This probably will not be a very long post, contrary to what my above warning indicates but it is going to be filled with very & I mean very unpopular opinions stated by me.

    Here goes nothing.

    The entire Pacers franchise went to crap on November 21, 2004.

    Why November 21 you ask and not November 19? Well one could argue that November 19 was the actual day that it went to crap and I would be hard pressed to disagree however the reason I pick November 21, 2004 is because that is the day that the franchise could have set it all right, they didn't do it and on that day they not only planted the seeds that would turn the fan base against them they watered and fertalized it as well.

    November 21, 2004 was the day that Herb Simon could have held a press conferance with a grim looking Donnie Walsh standing behind or beside him. In that press conferance he could have addressed the fans of Indiana and the entire world (because let's face it by that time it was worldwide news) and explained that the Indiana Pacers franchise was not going to tolerate this type of behavior from it's players. He could have announced sweeping suspensions for some of our players. He could have announced massive fines and orders for community service for some of our other players. He could have looked into the camera and told everybody how ashamed he was that our team was involved in this fiasco. Now to be fair he also could have and should have complained about the lack of security from the Palace and he could have even complained about the referee's, Ben Wallace and even the entire NBA's lack of control. I don't think anybody but Piston fans would have faulted him for making those last comments.

    Donnie Walsh could have come to the mic and explained that in his 20 plus years with the club that he had never had to deal with this and that he was sorry about this. He could have assured us this would never happen again and that steps were being taken right now to ensure that each and every player who wears a Pacers uniform would understand that there is an acceptable and an unacceptable way of conducting themselves.

    Then some designated Pacer (probably Reggie or Croshere) could have taken the mic and said that while they understood the players in question were acting in self defense it was the job of every team member left to compete at their highest level and that they would make sure Indiana fans would be proud of their effort if not their results.

    But none of this happened.

    Instead we got the "we stand behind our players" talk that has now become so famous here in Indiana.

    Now again this is all my opinion and I know most of you will disagree with me on this. But let's just take a jog down my fantasy land lane shall we?

    In my mind the Pacers inform the NBA commisioner of this on November 20 a full day before they tell anyone else.

    David Stern who is under immense pressure from businesses who advertise with the NBA to put his foot down, now can ease up a little bit. Sure he still is going to have to say that this is the worst thing ever yada, yada, yada and Artest may still get the season long boot.

    But if the Pacers orginazation lays the hammer down first he then is under no real pressure to spay an neuter the franchise. In other words he could have just punished the players, but as it was he had to make sure the entire world knew that the team was being punished.

    My opinion on this has always been that if the Pacers had shown contricion and a willingness to clean our own house instead of defiance Stern would have lightened up. Do I have proof of this? No, so if you wanna say I'm nuts feel free. Remember this is opinion and mine is no more valid than yours.

    Also it would have said to some of our fans, "hey we don't tolerate this ***** either".

    Now remember as I've been trying to tell everybody for years and years on here. Ron Artest was far more popular online than he ever was at the fieldhouse. Sure he got some cheers but he also had the catcalls as well for some of his antics (no not like Jackson got, but he got some nonetheless)

    While 98% of the fans on this board were ready to fight with anybody who dared question that maybe Ron was wrong, a lot of people around Indianapolis and Central Indiana started talking about "why do they keep these thugs". Thugs being a word used (incorrectly as kegboy will point out) over and over and over in describing our team by people in our own stands.

    Now not only could they have told the fans this, the league this, the world this. They also could have told our players this. Had they thrown the hammer down for these incidents my feeling is that some of the follow up b.s. that has happened away from & a few that happened on the court would not have happened.

    But instead all we have had for three years now is very very famous Donnie Walsh legal speak. "We are letting the legal system take it's course", "we stand behind our players", etc., etc.

    I know that appeals to many of you and that's fine that is your right. But I know a few pacer fans that this does not appeal to.

    How do I know? I'm a Pacers fan and it does not appeal to me.

    Can you think of how our franchise might have been differant if instead of acting like our players did nothing wrong, if they would have laid the hammer down.

    For that matter even if you don't think it would have been that much better, as I beleive, how could it have been any worse?

    I've lived here all of my life and as of yesterday I once again am the exact same age as the franchise and I have never heard of local fans hating the Pacers.

    I'm not talking about "Oh they're a bunch of losers who cares about the NBA anyway, NCAA is the only true basketball" that we had in the 80's and early 90's.

    I'm talking about right now if you mention you are a Pacers fan here in central Indiana you not only get "do you still follow that team" you also get "how can you support a group of thugs, man I just wish they would move on".

    How do I know this? I was training a new employee on Tuesday when during the daily routine of just getting to know each other better I mentioned I was a Pacers fan.

    The quotes from above were word for word what he said to me. No this wasn't some 48 year old who is just bitter. This was a 19 year old kid who grew up in Beach Grove.

    It just brought it all back to me what I thought then and still think today.

    If the owners and the managment had come down on the side of saying this wasn't right and showing the fans here that they didn't like it either, that the Pacers would not have this P.R. mess they have today.

    Still 3 years later I have only heard Larry Bird make any comment about being ashamed of what has happened here. I've not heard the Simons, I've not heard Walsh. Now they may be saying these things behind closed doors and to a point I understand that. But as it is to a lot of us they were and still are nothing more than enablers.

    Ok, now that I have said all of that I am prepared to face the firing squad.

    So in the immortal words of Johhny Storm "Flame On", come and get some.

    ************************************************** ********
    The above was the opinion of the author (peck) and does not represent the opinions or positions of the management of this board. The author has the sole responsibility for it's content and freely aknowledges that his opinions are just that, opinions. However the final decisions on opinions is made by God himself and as is a well known fact God is a fan of Pecks writings


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

    I'd go back further to the point that the owners overruled Bird's desire to trade Artest, before the brawl even happened. Everything since then has just been making the best of a bad situation.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

      I can almost live with their Artest response - but when Steven Jackson had his shootout they repeated basically the same thing? Then Tinsley & Friends in a brawl? At what point do you realize how mcuh that alienates people?

      Keep this in mind too - Artest apologization was a long tradition with the Pacers before the brawl. How many times did he pull something, like rip the camera out of the guy's hands at the Garden, or pose for Pat Riley, salute fans, etc., where Isiah came out with a statement of how shocked he was that Artest was suspended - that he hadn't done anything wrong and the Pacers loved his passion? I don't remember if Walsh had anything to say about that but Isiah was still management.

      I don't ever remember the Pacers coming out with any sort of statement about how disappointed they were with a player's behavior and how there would be consequences. The response was always what you've outlined. Makes me wonder if DW worked in the White House in the Nixon administration.

      Fans aren't that stupid. When things are in disarray, as much as anything they want management to basically come out and say, "We know things are screwed up - we're going to fix it."

      Of course I guess the "It's up to us" promotion said that - they just didn't DO it.
      Last edited by DisplacedKnick; 06-07-2007, 06:57 AM.
      The poster formerly known as Rimfire

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

        There are certain things teams may and may not do in regards to punishment which are dictated by the CBA. There are also legal reamifications involved. I would assume that punishments handed out by the team w/o due process would end up in a player v. team lawsuit. When great sums of cash are involved it is almost a given that a court will be involved.
        I'm not condoneing how TPTB handled this, I'm just saying we don't know all of the legal ramifications of them stepping up to the mic and doing what most of us wanted them to do. (we also don't know what they did behind the scenes) But as you say, on the face of it, TPTB said "We ride together".

        But that really isn't what this thread is about. I DO want to know your comments on AJ et al that you alluded to in your disclaimer.
        Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

          Originally posted by Peck View Post
          ************************************************** ********
          SO IF YOU ARE A FAN OF THE FOLLOWING (JERMAINE O'NEAL, DONNIE WALSH, HERB SIMON, JAMAAL TINSLEY, STEPHEN JACKSON, RON ARTES OR ANTHONY JOHNSON)
          ************************************************** ********
          I guess I'm out.

          I refuse to read anything deriding Anthony Johnson......

          Originally posted by indygeezer View Post
          I DO want to know your comments on AJ et al that you alluded to in your disclaimer.
          Shirley you have to know everyone's opinion about pretty much everything and everyone by now.....
          Last edited by MagicRat; 06-07-2007, 07:34 AM.
          PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

            Maybe TPTB were doing everything in their power to get Reggie a
            championship. The talent was there it just blew up in their face.
            Thus they overlooked the warning signs and here we are. They hopefully
            have learned a very hard lesson.
            {o,o}
            |)__)
            -"-"-

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

              Peck, if the Pacers would have done what you are now suggesting (no one was suggesting that at the time) then maybe the relationship between the Indianapolis people and the Pacers might be slightly and I emphasize the word slightly - the relationship might be slightly better than it is right now. But I don't believe it would have made much of a difference.

              As I posted several months ago, I think Indianapolis is hard wired to dislike the Pacers and the NBA - only exception being 1994 - 2000 (Peck, you yourself always refer to the 2004 teamn as not very polular)
              So I consider what we are going through right now "as the norm" and the only way to get out of the norm is to have extreme success.

              So Peck, I don't agree with your thesis.


              And as for the notion that TPTB never were critical of the players actions on 11/19 - I don't buy that statement either. I think they were. Keep in mind that 11/19 was on a Friday night, the pacers played a home game 11/20 and Stern's decision was made 11/21 at about 6:00 (I'll never forget where I was) So there wasn't a whole lot of time) But back to my point, I think they were critical - I'd have to do some research to dig up some quotes.

              And for the record - I don't care what the Pacers might have done suspending their own players, Stern would not have changed what he ended up doing.

              Actions speak louder than words, and the only way the Pacers could have saved their reputation a little is if they would have traded Jax and Artest during their suspensions - now that would have helped the relationship between the team and fans
              Last edited by Unclebuck; 06-07-2007, 07:40 AM.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                Great post Peck!

                As usual I almost agree with you completely, but as UB said I don't think Stern would have been milder on us if TPTB had put the hammer down.

                Afterwards it would have been the best decision to trade both Artest and Jackson during their suspensions but we wouldn't have gotten back great value (and some will say we didn't get that afterall either).
                Maceo Baston's #1 fan on Pacers Digest!

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                  Hindsight is always 20-20. Looking back knowing what we know today, it would have resolved a lot of problems wouldn't it? I remember though there were many people who stuck up for Ron, even considered him a victim.

                  I agree the TPTB needed to take a hard stand and do the right thing, but there would have been many fans who would have disagreed with it. This was supposed to have been our championship season. If we had traded away our problems right away, then the fans would have crucified TPTB for throwing away the chance to get those rings. Much easier to lay the blame on Herr Schtern. A few, Peck among them perhaps, would have agreed it was necessary, and the knucklehead warrior debate would have continued.

                  Later perhaps, jax2 could have fired his gun in SanFrancisco instead of here, and those who think integrity is better than wins could have gloated.

                  I'm quite certain the judge was lenient with me, when at the age of 16 appearing in traffic court, my dad told the judge he had taken away my license for 30 days.
                  Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                    Can't disagree with most of Peck's post.

                    pause while world ends in flaming glory

                    Some points would be:

                    - there is a difference between the way they could have handled the Brawl (which was clear to pretty much everyone) and how they had to handle the SJax/Tinsley club incidents. In the latter case, I think "waiting for the justice system" was the correct (and legal) way to go - especially as the last incident seems to have fizzled out as nowhere near what it was originally made out to be. Reacting radically to first reports would have put the franchise itself in a heap of trouble and might have been just as bad PR wise.

                    - as have others, I must point out that Stern would still have felt the need to emasculate the Pacers. I still have it in my head that if Jax was playing for the Pacers while being tossed out of 2 playoff games he'd have been under suspension for the rest of the series. No way to prove it, but that's the way I feel.

                    - The actions of management show that they finally listened to the fans about the appeal of players being equally important to their abilities. IF (and I agree, it is a HUGE if) we can get through a year - even of mediocre play - as good citizens (getting rid of Tinsley or at least curbing the club scene during training camp and the season would help immensely) then I think the "thug" attitude will diminish. I don't think it will ever go away because the NBA is more of a street culture (for better or worse, I don't argue either way) than most traditional basketball fans in Indiana would prefer. That, however, is not something TPTB can affect unless they want to reject most (if not all) of the top players now or in future.

                    - Communication is the key, but (as we've seen in the past) it is not the strong suit of this franchise. When they tried it (with the "it's up to us" campaign), the players blew it up in their faces. Imagine what the view of the franchise would be had the club incidents not happened on the heels of that PR move. Wouldn't that have moved us into a better place? Now, though, they have to clean up the mess and wait for a while without incident before something remotely like that would work.

                    - Finally, I would remind long-time denizens of the Donnie Debate that taking these kind of franchise-risking actions is exactly what some advocated and some warned against. Failure in taking such a risk was always seen as a player not panning out - many saw Artest as a danger but no one really thought he would out-Rodman Rodman (heck, he almost out-Roddyed Roddy Piper). A GM and organization not normally risk takers simply weren't prepared for an explosion of this magnitude. It really just goes to show that even successful people can make major blunders - one just hopes they learn from them.
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                      Originally posted by Peck View Post
                      Now remember as I've been trying to tell everybody for years and years on here. Ron Artest was far more popular online than he ever was at the fieldhouse. Sure he got some cheers but he also had the catcalls as well for some of his antics (no not like Jackson got, but he got some nonetheless)

                      While 98% of the fans on this board were ready to fight with anybody who dared question that maybe Ron was wrong, a lot of people around Indianapolis and Central Indiana started talking about "why do they keep these thugs".
                      I would almost argue that Artest was closer to folk hero status than hated by the start of the next season. He was coming back as a 270 pound Paul Bunyan of a small forward. He got a huge ovation at the Fan Jam.

                      He may have been despised by the wine and cheese crowd in the lower and club levels, but I think he had the balcony dwellers.......
                      PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                        Ok, if your still here you either have an open mind,
                        This following that disclaimer is some of the most clever irony every penned. Genius sir, pure Faulkner-esqe genius.



                        Rat is 100% right about Artest. After the brawl he was still viewed as unfairly punished. Nearly everyone put more blame on Jackson, certainly on Stern who was soundly BOO'D the previous spring when he attended the DET/IND playoff game in Conseco, and on Detroit fans and security.

                        Ron totally lost the locals when he took that Fan Jam love and spit on it a few months later by going to the press to ask for a trade...so he could SHOOT MORE no less. He mentioned himself in the same breath as Kobe Bryant.

                        And that was the end of that. It wasn't the antics, it was his attitude toward the team itself. Antics with his output people were fine with as long as he was on "our" side in the battle. When he went rogue he turned his LOCAL image into the national version - psycho jerk.


                        Originally posted by Buck
                        And for the record - I don't care what the Pacers might have done suspending their own players, Stern would not have changed what he ended up doing.
                        Totally agree.
                        Peck, this view is like the wife saying "he wouldn't beat me if I hadn't burnt his toast and ruined the eggs". It's not management's fault that Stern used them as the fall guy, he had to have someone punished in order to assure his money-base that the NBA wasn't out of control, thugs, and outright dangerous.

                        Notice that DET did very little to punish the people involved on its side of the matter, meaning they didn't ramp up security or even install the protective tunnel covers that were "required". Did Stern ever punish them for that aspect? Did he ever punish them after the bomb threat game (which in fact featured a FIGHT in the stands between fans) or the AI-coin throw game? No, he went with "my hands are tied".

                        Indy was a good scapegoat because he could safely reach out and hurt the players and thus maintain his image of control.

                        Of course a few years later and his control went over wonderfully in Vegas, proving his actions have had zero impact and that he is totally out of touch with where the NBA is at right now.


                        I will agree on one thing, the brawl did destroy this team. The emotional baggage it left them with was just too much. Plenty of teams have players that don't get along, have power squabbles about touches and playing time, and guys getting techs (um, the Pistons have a ring, right).

                        Those teams typically don't have to deal with the repeated association with the brawl every time one of those issues comes up, that's the difference. If Ray Allen and Lewis argue in the locker room or yell at the coach, they don't have that issue blown up to 100 because of "the brawl" over and over.


                        And let's remember this, the fan-player physical interaction started when a drunk guy with a rap sheet threw something at a sober guy without one. If that happens at your local bar there's only 1 guy going to jail that night (and sometimes its not even fair).
                        Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-07-2007, 10:18 AM.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                          Originally posted by BillS View Post
                          - Communication is the key, but (as we've seen in the past) it is not the strong suit of this franchise.

                          I agree, but it does appear there has been an effort to change that recently and I think the Ps are on the right track with being more open with the fans.

                          HERB SIMON

                          I honesetly don't have a problem with the way the Simons have handled the team. I prefer the owner that stays out of the way and hires supposed experts to take care of the team. The Pacers have had one of the highest payrolls in one of the smallest markets. The brothers have paid out the cash and I'm not sure what more we could ask of them? They're smart business men obviously, but I wasn't aware they had to be basketball gurus.
                          You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                            Originally posted by indygeezer View Post
                            There are certain things teams may and may not do in regards to punishment which are dictated by the CBA. There are also legal reamifications involved. I would assume that punishments handed out by the team w/o due process would end up in a player v. team lawsuit. When great sums of cash are involved it is almost a given that a court will be involved.
                            I'm not condoneing how TPTB handled this, I'm just saying we don't know all of the legal ramifications of them stepping up to the mic and doing what most of us wanted them to do. (we also don't know what they did behind the scenes) But as you say, on the face of it, TPTB said "We ride together".

                            But that really isn't what this thread is about. I DO want to know your comments on AJ et al that you alluded to in your disclaimer.
                            But indygeezer, since when does a franchise have to wait for the legal system to punish an individual before they can punish someone on their team? If David Harrison smashes another picture in the Fieldhouse, do the people involved have to file charges to the police, what for the penalty to be handed down, before they as the management of the Pacers can punish him? I don't believe so. So why would it be any different with the Brawl?

                            Sure with the stuff that happened outside of anything NBA-related you have to wait, but the Brawl was on video tape and happened while they were in uniform in an NBA arena.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Ok, let's start to end the week with something bland and agreed upon by everyone....

                              Originally posted by RWB View Post
                              HERB SIMON

                              I honesetly don't have a problem with the way the Simons have handled the team. I prefer the owner that stays out of the way and hires supposed experts to take care of the team. The Pacers have had one of the highest payrolls in one of the smallest markets. The brothers have paid out the cash and I'm not sure what more we could ask of them? They're smart business men obviously, but I wasn't aware they had to be basketball gurus.
                              Well considering that, as I understand it, the Simons are the reason we didn't trade Artest for Stojakovic during the summer of 2004, someone should tell them that they aren't basketball gurus.

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