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[Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

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  • #31
    Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

    Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
    Yeah I don't see how teams that give max to ok players are going to compete in the future.

    Paying PG 200 mill pretty much guarantees that you can't afford the pieces to compete.
    I think Paul George is more than just an O.K. player but the huge 5 year number we're talking about starts at 33 mil next year if he gets the DPE.
    He's already making 20 mil under his second contract from the old cba.
    All star players are now going to cost more. Where do you want to draw the line? You're no longer going get be able to sign an all star player for 20 mil.
    You can possibly get a few fringe all stars for that but you can't build a championship team on fringe all starts and role players.
    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

      Originally posted by Pace Maker View Post
      He's been more efficient this year, but PG especially in the first half of the 2015-2016 season and then later on postseason >>> 2016-2017 performance.

      PG has been definitively worse than:

      Kevin Durant
      Kawhi Leonard
      Jimmy Butler
      Giannis A.
      Gordon Hayward
      LBJ of course
      Carmelo Anthony (maybe)

      Basically any and every peer at his position has been better than him this year. This roster is playing below its talent level (seriously 1 game above .500? What a joke) PG is clearly not elevating the team anywhere, he should not even sniff an All-NBA award this season. I'm a big fan I don't say this because I don't like the guy, I say it because he doesn't deserve it.
      I'd argue replacing Paul with any of those guys outside of Lebron and Durant probably makes us worse. I'll get destroyed for not saying Kawhi- so you can possibly add him in there too. The other guys wouldn't make us a better team if they replaced Paul George. Especially not Hayward or Melo.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

        Originally posted by cdash View Post
        I think the supermax only helps the Pacers' chances of retaining PG. They would be stark raving mad to insult him with an offer for anything less than the absolute max.
        Ummmm... This is Bird whom we're talking about, lol. I could see him trying to convince Paul George to $3M - $7M less per year, so he can keep building the team. I'll leave this to the CBA experts on the forum, but I think the DPE gives them quite a bit of wiggle room while still allowing them to be the team who can offer him the most money.

        Personally, I hope that Bird does. I'm really not a fan of teams giving players the max deal just because they can. It's such a lazy way of negotiating.


        Remember when we could have gotten 1-2 solid players and a possible Top 3 draft pick in the 2017 NBA Draft by trading away Paul George?

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

          If PG is going to be worth $200 million, then he's gotta stop with these catastrophic offensive slumps that have happened this time of year for three straight seasons (14, 16, 17).

          Of course, the flip side is that PG is probably worth a billion dollars if Solomon Hill was able to dupe someone into giving him $52 million. Can't wait for the 30 for 30 on last offseason.
          Last edited by Sollozzo; 03-03-2017, 08:58 AM.

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          • #35
            Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

            Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
            All his effort stats are down. FTA, steals, assists, boards, everything. It's not like he's playing poorly. He's just not giving the same level of effort or at least the box isn't showing it.
            This is the like the fourth time I've seen you point out that his stats are down, and not one single time have you posted the actual decreases. Why? Because it's easier to argue that the stats are down and it's bad rather than declining from 23.1 to 22.4 is bad. Provide the context and you'll see how silly this is.
            Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

              Original article forgets Brow, who is also a forward and a definite pick in one of All-NBA teams way ahead of PG this year.

              As I said in separate thread :

              The top 5 forwards in NBA this season have been : Durant, Lebron, Kawhi, Brow & Greek Freak. Except for KD's injury - there would be no discussion about those 5 All-NBA spots.

              The next two (competing for the 6th spot and slipping in if Durant is "DQ'd" are Jimmy Butler & Gordon Hayward.


              PG13 probably leads the NEXT group which also includes Blake, Otto Porter, Harrison Barnes, Millsap, Melo... However, they are all outside looking in and it is not exactly even a close race.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                This is the like the fourth time I've seen you point out that his stats are down, and not one single time have you posted the actual decreases. Why? Because it's easier to argue that the stats are down and it's bad rather than declining from 23.1 to 22.4 is bad. Provide the context and you'll see how silly this is.
                Do you feel that Paul is having a very good year this season?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                  Yes. PG is having pretty much the same year as last year. Stats don't stay flat across the board, that's not how this works. If you thought PG was playing fantastic last year, and you have a problem this year, the problem isn't with PG.
                  Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                    Originally posted by PetPaima View Post
                    Original article forgets Brow, who is also a forward and a definite pick in one of All-NBA teams way ahead of PG this year.

                    As I said in separate thread :

                    The top 5 forwards in NBA this season have been : Durant, Lebron, Kawhi, Brow & Greek Freak. Except for KD's injury - there would be no discussion about those 5 All-NBA spots.

                    The next two (competing for the 6th spot and slipping in if Durant is "DQ'd" are Jimmy Butler & Gordon Hayward.


                    PG13 probably leads the NEXT group which also includes Blake, Otto Porter, Harrison Barnes, Millsap, Melo... However, they are all outside looking in and it is not exactly even a close race.
                    I disagree, when you look at their complete games Paul should be ahead of both Hayward and Butler. Paul is not on the same tier as Lebron and KD but you are under rating him here.
                    Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

                    Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                      Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                      This is the like the fourth time I've seen you point out that his stats are down, and not one single time have you posted the actual decreases. Why? Because it's easier to argue that the stats are down and it's bad rather than declining from 23.1 to 22.4 is bad. Provide the context and you'll see how silly this is.
                      He is rebounding 7.0 boards per 40 minutes compared to 8.0 last season. Actually, his rebound-rate is at career-low although not by much.

                      More glaringly he is also dishing out an assist less per 40. Percentage-wise it is much larger drop from 4.7 to 3.7.

                      And (as all of us has been able to see) he hasn't been at all committed for defensive end... He had league-leading defensive win shares in 2012-13 at 6.3, matched that a year later and had still very good 4.8 defensive win shares last season. This year? A middling 2.0.

                      That leads to a fact that after being absolute elite-level talent who regularly produced a team an estimated 10 extra wins a season over "replacement-level mediocrity", he is on pace for less than half of that impact this season.

                      Shining counter-argument is basically only FT-percentage - league-leading .920 which is astounding!


                      But yes, stats have fallen off a bit and advanced stats show a freefall...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                        Originally posted by PetPaima View Post
                        Original article forgets Brow, who is also a forward and a definite pick in one of All-NBA teams way ahead of PG this year.
                        I bet AD is listed as a center on this one.
                        Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                          Originally posted by PetPaima View Post
                          He is rebounding 7.0 boards per 40 minutes compared to 8.0 last season. Actually, his rebound-rate is at career-low although not by much.

                          More glaringly he is also dishing out an assist less per 40. Percentage-wise it is much larger drop from 4.7 to 3.7.


                          Originally posted by PetPaima View Post
                          But yes, stats have fallen off a bit and advanced stats show a freefall...
                          Free fall? Come on man. One rebound and one less assist over 40mins is a now a "free fall." Tom Petty is somewhere hanging his head.

                          EDIT: And don't you mean per-36?
                          Last edited by Since86; 03-03-2017, 10:55 AM.
                          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                            Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                            Yes. PG is having pretty much the same year as last year. Stats don't stay flat across the board, that's not how this works. If you thought PG was playing fantastic last year, and you have a problem this year, the problem isn't with PG.
                            I'm not disagreeing, I just wanted to make sure.

                            I think the issue is that the Pacers were thought to be extremely improved over last year. The supposed 'upgrades" that were added to the roster were supposed to help Paul take his game to a higher level. (the old adage that with more help, he would be able to do more offensively).

                            But since the team has been struggling, people look at Paul and think he's not doing enough.

                            I think Paul is having a nice year. Similar to last and the one previous. He will never put up big offensive numbers with high efficiency. That's just not who he is. So having that expectation set a lot of individuals up for a let down

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                              http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/1...e-warriors-nba

                              Zach Lowe commented on some of our frustrations with PG in his 10 Things column today:

                              7. Paul George, cavalier

                              It's a fascinating debate raging across the league right now: How good, really, is Paul George? Before his ghastly leg injury, George was a consensus top-10 or top-12 player. Now, he probably won't qualify for one of six All-NBA forward spots. Toss in all the brilliant guards and unicorn bigs, and where exactly does George rank in the NBA's star hierarchy? Was he really worth all the trade deadline agita?

                              He hasn't played with the same fire this season. Only 13 percent of his shots have come at the rim, the lowest mark of his career. His free throws are down, and he's taking more long 2s than ever. He has ceded some of the creative burden to Jeff Teague, and there are nights when he just looks a little off.

                              There is even some evidence that his vaunted defense has slipped. His adjusted plus-minus numbers are mediocre, and opposing players are shooting above their averages when George is nearby, per NBA.com.

                              He has developed a maddening habit of drifting too far from dangerous shooters when he doesn't need to, leaving them open even on the strong side -- one short pass away:


                              It's almost as if George assumes he can make up all that distance if he revs into into gear. He can't. He has been too cavalier this season.

                              But then you remember what he has done in the postseason hothouse. He drilled high degree of difficulty shots on the biggest stage, in the biggest moments. When he gets angry, George transforms into a lockdown defender -- a long, multi-positional weapon, always on his toes, bouncing in sync with his mark as if he's looking into a mirror. He almost single-handedly eliminated a massively superior Toronto team in the first round last season.

                              When it matters, I'm still riding with Paul George.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: [Yahoo] Kevin Durant's injury could have a $212 million ramification for Paul George and the Pacers

                                Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
                                I disagree, when you look at their complete games Paul should be ahead of both Hayward and Butler. Paul is not on the same tier as Lebron and KD but you are under rating him here.
                                In these kind of arguments I rather look at Advanced Stats over an opinion.

                                Let's take a look on top forwards at various advanced stats-categories :

                                ESPN Hollinger Stats / Estimated Wins Added : (EWA, overall position in table). This is a total number so the games missed on injuries are already accounted for as a minus-factor

                                Durant : 16.9, 3rd
                                Brow : 16.6, 4th
                                Lebron : 16.4, 5th
                                Greek Freak : 16.3, 6th
                                Kawhi : 15.8, 8th
                                --------------------------
                                Butler : 14.6, 11th
                                Hayward : 11.7, 16th
                                --------------------------
                                Melo : 8.7, 33rd
                                Blake : 8.2, T-35th (with Myles)
                                Wiggins & Love : 7.7, T-38th
                                Harrison Barnes : 7.4, T-41st
                                PG : 7.1, 45th
                                Otto : 7.0, T-46th
                                Millsap : 6.5, 51st


                                Win shares / 48 by basketball-reference.com. It is adjusted for 48 minutes so pure performance with games missed "forgiven" :

                                Durant : .277, 1st (from qualified players, the 6 ahead of him have played 30 total minutes or less for season)
                                Kawhi : .272, 2nd
                                Butler : .228, 7th
                                Lebron : .220, 9th
                                Hayward : .218, 10th
                                Greek Freak : .208, 14th
                                Brow : .191, 24th
                                -----------------------------
                                Otto : .183, 29th
                                Love : .182, 30th
                                Blake : .176, 34th
                                ------------------------
                                Millsap : .132, around 70th spot (depending whom you qualify)
                                ------------------------
                                Melo : .104, around 120th spot
                                ------------------------
                                PG & Wiggins << .100, not in top 150 amongst NBA players!


                                These were random selections amongst many available advanced stats - I could list more and the trend remains the same. PG13 is not playing anywhere close to All-NBA level this season and only his name recognition will keep him anywhere around the conversation.
                                Last edited by PetPaima; 03-03-2017, 11:09 AM.

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