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I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

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  • I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

    Tighter calling on touching perimeter players has obviously caused the increase value of spacing (thus leaving driving lanes more open).

    But what has actually changed recently that makes low post offense almost a thing of the past. I mean three point shooting has been around forever, spacing really isn't new either and the pace of the game isn't really any faster than the 80's so what is it that has made the low post player almost a thing of the past. In the past you could have a Troy Murphy but then on the other end a true power forward would destroy him by taking down low. Why is that no longer a thing? What am I not seeing as to why someone couldn't teach big men actual post moves and destroy some of these midgets playing the 4 and 5?

    What makes it so a Draymond Green can play successfully at center today when 20 years ago he would have been run over like a speed bump?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  • #2
    Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

    I don't think post play is obsolete, but certainly it's not the main go to option now that it once was. Part of that probably has to do with the lack of talented bigs currently, but another big factor is that it's simply become more efficient to face up than to post up. While it's true that spacing has been around forever, coaches in recent years (well, coaches not named Vogel anyway) have found really creative ways to exploit spacing and ball movement to create open shots.

    Al Jefferson illustrates this pretty well. He's still one of the best post up players currently playing, yet the Hornets actually score 3 points more per 100 possessions with Jefferson off the floor. Indeed, we Pacer fans know this very well, since the Hornets have killed us recently with their spread lineup.

    Btw, I disagree that Draymond Green would be "run over like a speed bump" 20 years ago. His value won't be maximized the way it is now, but he's still a stout defender who can hold his own against bigger guys. Other than defense, he doesn't actually do anything particularly well, but he can do a bit of everything at a good enough level. He'd probably be a defensive specialist off the bench 20 years ago.

    FWIW, I actually enjoy the rise of spread offenses that heavily emphasize teamwork, passing, and ball movement. It's not actually about playing small, it just happens that smaller guys tend to be better at those things than bigger guys.

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    • #3
      Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

      I feel like its a lot harder to play out of a failed post-move. Teams don't want to commit to a half-court post-up play, kill time off the clock, stagnate player and ball movement, and then have difficulty setting up a plan B if the post-player can't get deep position (WARNING: may cue Hibbert flashbacks). The Warriors have made it all about getting as many possessions as possible in a game.

      Now, if there was a post-player who could run like a gazelle, and still had the strength to quickly carve space for himself (imagine Anthony Davis with allstar playmakers) I could see the post making a strong return.
      https://soundcloud.com/geoclipse

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      • #4
        Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

        You can blame this team.

        http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005.html

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        • #5
          Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

          There are several factors, but the biggest one is the changing of the illegal defense rule. Before, if the offense spaced the floor, the defense wasn't allowed to send players inside unless they were specifically going to double team the player with the ball. Double teaming without the ball was not permitted.

          So if a team had good enough spacing, a post player would have tons of space to either make a move or wait for the hard double team to come which would kill defensive coverage. The double team often had to come from so far away that the player could see it coming from a mile away and could plan for where he was going to pass the ball. This is how ISO's worked as well.

          Now though it's completely different. Teams can send extra bodies to the paint and show a double team without committing to it. The offense often doesn't know who is going to double, or even if anyone is. They can force teams to reverse the ball to the other side of the floor where they can recover before the ball gets there. If you have Solomon Hill for example standing behind the 3 point line, teams can send his defender into the paint to deter drives and post players. This was often not allowed by the defenses of the 90's.

          That has also somewhat destroyed the defense only player. Before, you could legally hide a player like that on offense within the rules and the opponents were still forced to guard that player. Now, you can have defenses like the Warriors did to the Grizzlies last year. To counter Memphis's inside game, they switched Bogut on Tony Allen and Bogut would just stand around the rim (making sure to not get called for 3 seconds) and be a help defender on both Gasol and Randolph. Allen would be completely unguarded behind the 3 point line. The Warriors would never be allowed to play that kind of defense in the 90's, but because they were able to now they were able to slow down the Grizzlies inside and flip the series.

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          • #6
            Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

            Post players are normally more physical guys who, on the other end of the floor needed to deal with the defensive 3 second rule. It forced them to move more and not camp out in the paint and rest on D. I don't know what the old rule used to be, but I do know they have a lot less time to guard the rim and are being forced to play the perimeter as more "bigs" shoot 3's. The rule also opened up the lane and allowed for more dribble penetration for guys like Derrick Rose and Monta Ellis who would have never survived the 1990's with their games. So, teams valued players who could stretch the floor. Power forwards are no longer that powerful, so there is even less need for size to shove people out of the paint. In fact, there is no shoving at all. Rick Mahorn wouldn't even make a roster in 2016.

            Edit: Shaq leaving the league was a factor as well. Teams could get away with C's who weren't that physical but could shoot from distance like Kevin Love. So, that era ended.

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            • #7
              Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

              Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
              Post players are normally more physical guys who, on the other end of the floor needed to deal with the defensive 3 second rule. It forced them to move more and not camp out in the paint and rest on D. I don't know what the old rule used to be, but I do know they have a lot less time to guard the rim and are being forced to play the perimeter as more "bigs" shoot 3's. The rule also opened up the lane and allowed for more dribble penetration for guys like Derrick Rose and Monta Ellis who would have never survived the 1990's with their games. So, teams valued players who could stretch the floor. Power forwards are no longer that powerful, so there is even less need for size to shove people out of the paint. In fact, there is no shoving at all. Rick Mahorn wouldn't even make a roster in 2016.

              Edit: Shaq leaving the league was a factor as well. Teams could get away with C's who weren't that physical but could shoot from distance like Kevin Love. So, that era ended.
              The rules have actually let defenses clog the lane much more than they ever could before. That's why you see many less 20 point scorers than you used to because it's easier to send help to the primary offensive player on the other team. That's also why you've seen offenses try to counter this by using more dribble penetration which allows a guard to see the floor when the help comes and make the right pass instead of forcing a big to do that. Offenses also try to have bigs play outside as much as possible to get rid of the cluttered lane.

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              • #8
                Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                Eliminating the illegal defense rule helped a little, but it's mostly due to the way the game is taught. Low post play is a specialized skill and low effeciency unless you train for decades to become great at it. It simply isn't taight at the youth level anymore.

                It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
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                • #9
                  Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                  Cubs231721 is correct. The legalization of the zone defense is a major contributor to what we're seeing today. But I want to point out a different factor.

                  The way the game is reffed has changed as well. Nowadays, it is a lot easier to earn a foul call when you're driving to the rim (no matter your position) than it is when you're posting up . Defenders are allowed to be physical against a post player but they're not allowed the same amount of physicality against a player who's driving towards the rim.
                  Originally posted by IrishPacer
                  Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                  • #10
                    Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                    No rules really. If you're big enough to play well in the post, you're probably too slow to play in the NBA.

                    It's also just where the talent is. The top talent lately has been bigger players, and if that continues the post game will come back.

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                    • #11
                      Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                      I think it's a combination of things. We don't have the quality of big men that we had when the post game ruled and I don't really know why but overall big men today aren't as strong nor as talented in the post as they were 20 years ago. I think a bigger factor is the way the game is being coached which is a result of coaches adapting to rule changes. Every rule change that has occurred for the past 20 years have by design increased the effectiveness and importance of wing players and handicapped big men. Eliminating hand checking made life easier for wings, the Barkely rule and zone defenses made life harder for big men.
                      I don't see this trend changing unless the league starts tweaking the rules to encourage post play and discourage wing dominant ball.
                      Last edited by Pacerized; 04-06-2016, 09:01 AM.
                      Larry Bird qouted March 25th. 2015:

                      Bird: I wanted to keep our group together because in the summer, if David and Roy opt out, we're back to zero, really. We don't have that much, so you leave your options open. If we did make a trade, I didn't want to take on a lot of contracts -- because that's what usually happens. Plus, I liked my guys. They're playing well. If we keep the core together and Paul comes back healthy, we'll be right back to where we were.

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                      • #12
                        Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q

                        I think this video does a GREAT job of illustrating the difference in defense now vs. back then. Whoever put together this did a great job of illustrating very simple things we see these days that we deem "normal" defense that would've been called illegal D back then. It's affected a lot of things, post play included.

                        It's not a post up situation, but look at the defense the Spurs play around 3:12 of this video. This looks like completely "normal" defense these days. We don't bat an eye at it when we see it now. 20 years ago, it would've been called illegal D. It's a great video, through and through that illustrates differences. When you see how it plays out and are reminded of how differently defense is played now vs. back then, it's very obvious why post play has become more difficult.

                        As far as the poor quality of post players nowadays, I think an overlooked aspect of the 90s is when Shaq came into the league.

                        Shaq was so dominant physically that teams had to have extra big bodies to serve as an obstacle and as 6 more fouls to slow him down. So you had an increased number of unskilled bigs in the league who got paid to serve this purpose. Every team in the league ever year had to worry about how they would guard Shaq, especially playoff teams. These guys weren't skilled. They brought nothing to the table besides being big, and having these guys like this on the roster became the norm. Some even got paid big. Remember Jim Mcilvaine getting a bigger contract than Shawn Kemp and making Kemp want out of Seattle (though it was really Kemp's fault for signing his paltry, team friendly deal).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                          I know first hand that kids are being taught the game much differently than they were in the past.

                          Bigs are currently being taught simplistic moves in the post (moves over each shoulder) but are working on their face-up and spot up game in much more detail.

                          We still have lost players in the league. But even most of those guys are still utilizing a lot of their possessions out of the mid to high post area.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                            Originally posted by wintermute View Post
                            FWIW, I actually enjoy the rise of spread offenses that heavily emphasize teamwork, passing, and ball movement. It's not actually about playing small, it just happens that smaller guys tend to be better at those things than bigger guys.
                            I know A LOT of people share this point of view, but I'm just not a fan of how the game is played currently.

                            On one hand, the utilization of teamwork and ball movement is always nice. Also the game requires a much higher level of offensive skill than it did previously IMO. The days of pass first point guards and/or defensive specialists who can't shoot or score a lick are long over.

                            With that said, I hate knowing that if you drive to the lane hard or consistent enough -- you're going to get a foul call no matter what. I also don't care for the fact that perimiter defense is pretty much obsolete at the moment. Defense is no longer about shutting down your individual matchup. The defensive rules make that very very difficult to do. Now defense is all about a teams system and synchronization than it is about the teams individual defensive talent.

                            As Peck said, I dislike seeing a guy like Draymond Greem have such a high impact on the game. You would think his lack of high level talent would prevent that but he's absolutely perfect for the way the game is defended nowadays.
                            Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 04-06-2016, 12:39 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: I know what rule change has increased the spacing on the floor, however what rule change (if any) has caused post play to become almost obsolete?

                              Originally posted by d_c View Post
                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM_eCnTNt1Q

                              I think this video does a GREAT job of illustrating the difference in defense now vs. back then. Whoever put together this did a great job of illustrating very simple things we see these days that we deem "normal" defense that would've been called illegal D back then. It's affected a lot of things, post play included.

                              It's not a post up situation, but look at the defense the Spurs play around 3:12 of this video. This looks like completely "normal" defense these days. We don't bat an eye at it when we see it now. 20 years ago, it would've been called illegal D. It's a great video, through and through that illustrates differences. When you see how it plays out and are reminded of how differently defense is played now vs. back then, it's very obvious why post play has become more difficult.

                              As far as the poor quality of post players nowadays, I think an overlooked aspect of the 90s is when Shaq came into the league.

                              Shaq was so dominant physically that teams had to have extra big bodies to serve as an obstacle and as 6 more fouls to slow him down. So you had an increased number of unskilled bigs in the league who got paid to serve this purpose. Every team in the league ever year had to worry about how they would guard Shaq, especially playoff teams. These guys weren't skilled. They brought nothing to the table besides being big, and having these guys like this on the roster became the norm. Some even got paid big. Remember Jim Mcilvaine getting a bigger contract than Shawn Kemp and making Kemp want out of Seattle (though it was really Kemp's fault for signing his paltry, team friendly deal).
                              This video is brilliant. It was made last year so we were in the space and pace craze but not at the frenzy I think we went to this year. The soft double is really a big reason why big man doesn't exist like he used to.
                              Thank you so much for finding this.


                              Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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