All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

True. But then they also dismiss those stats from all of last season, because it doesn't jive with their opinions.

I've challenged Freddie, but it's an open challenge to anyone who thinks Roy's defense started slipping to a point where he didn't deserve as many minutes. Find me some stat to show where he was to where he supposedly went. Freddie has been unable to, other than finding an adjust +/- that relies on estimates and projections, so maybe someone else can.

I don't feel like going back and showing it, but the current model for real plus minus isn't a projection. The stats I posted showed that there was a drop off in Hibbert's defense.

I also posted Vogel saying he benched Hibbert for defensive reasons, and Lowe saying that there are more advanced stats we aren't privileged to that show the slippage in defense.

Couple those things with Hibbert's trade value and still being benched in LA because of smaller lineups, it makes no sense to cling to Opponent FG% and Rim protection if it's only in limited play. We all agree Hibbert is a GREAT defender, the question is what is the defense worth if it can only be applied situationally.

In the Pacers case, it wasn't worth it.

EDIT: Also, I see no point in debating last season or finding stats from last year. My entire point was that what I witnessed and read (Vogel,league value, sats and writers) led me to believe Hibbert was declining defensively. Now that we have entered the new season, we'll see if Hibbert has declined. Some have bet he remains top 10 in opponent fg% and I believe that won't be the case. So there's really no use debating, either Hibbert declines or he has a comeback. This season and his next contract (like Lance) will tell us all we need to know.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I just want to chime in and say how funny it looks to see people comparing players stats such as oppo fg% this year when there has only been 4 games. I think any smart person would know that 4 games is not a proper sample size to be comparing stats in this way. Mean statistics mean absolutely nothing after 4 games if you are using them to prove player A is playing better than player B

True. But then they also dismiss those stats from all of last season, because it doesn't jive with their opinions.

I've challenged Freddie, but it's an open challenge to anyone who thinks Roy's defense started slipping to a point where he didn't deserve as many minutes. Find me some stat to show where he was to where he supposedly went. Freddie has been unable to, other than finding an adjust +/- that relies on estimates and projections, so maybe someone else can.

[ReginaldWayne]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I just want to chime in and say how funny it looks to see people comparing players stats such as oppo fg% this year when there has only been 4 games. I think any smart person would know that 4 games is not a proper sample size to be comparing stats in this way. Mean statistics mean absolutely nothing after 4 games if you are using them to prove player A is playing better than player B

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Again, Roy was 4th in oppoFG% last year, so unless you've managed to find stats, for the 5th time since you've been unsuccessful the first 4, that actually backup your claim he's no longer a top interior defender, we're just gonna pee up another rope.

Huh? We're talking about this season. I gave several reasons and stats to support my belief Hibbert, as Lowe noted, had slippage on defense last year that would continue. His inability to stay on the court this season and not be a top 10 defender will prove that to be correct I believe.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Roy is like head, shoulders, torso, legs ahead of Laker's other interior defenders, other than Ryan Kelly of all people.

Randle's oppoFG% is a whooping 60.5%!!!

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Again, Roy was 4th in oppoFG% last year, so unless you've managed to find stats, for the 5th time since you've been unsuccessful the first 4, that actually backup your claim he's no longer a top interior defender, we're just gonna pee up another rope.






On an unrelated note, Ian's oppoFG% is 58.1% right now. Geesh, didn't realize it was that bad.

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

No. J.Hill is letting opponents shoot 48.5%.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

EDIT: Opponent FG% on the season, for JHill opponents, is 42.6% So JHill is letting players shoot +5.9% while Roy is -6.2% so completely opposite.

You're right, it must have changed when I looked it up.

The point still stands though. If Hibbert isn't a top 10 rim protector or defender his value dramatically drops (which it did). Most teams won't build a team around Hibbert playing 20 mpg, if any.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I agree with some of this, but this is the same thing with Lance. Roy has value, but the original discussion was if Roy was still an elite starting caliber player.

Also, Hibbert isn't defending well, his opponent FG% is lower than Jordan Hill. A player like Hibbert has to make his mark on defense. So I wouldn't rely on 8 points and 6 rebounds stats and say Hibbert is average. I would say you could put plenty of below average centers on the court for 23 minutes and get those numbers.

We're just going to have to wait another month to see how it plays out. But I still think the biggest indicator of Hibbert's effectiveness (and his next contract) will be how many minutes he plays.

No. J.Hill is letting opponents shoot 48.5%.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

EDIT: Opponent FG% on the season, for JHill opponents, is 42.6% So JHill is letting players shoot +5.9% while Roy is -6.2% so completely opposite.

[Jay@Section12]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Reconceptualizing the former members of our core as these ambidextrous, multitalented set of individuals instead of a collection of players with complementary skills that caught fire within a team dynamic ... (emphasis added)

Why is this just limited to former players, the same happens with players still on the roster as well.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Roy's DFG% actually went down after last nights game. I posted it a few pages back yesterday, and it was like 41.8% and it's down to 40.7% today. Opponents normal FG% is 46.9%.
http://stats.nba.com/league/player/defense/#!/?sort=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

[freddielewis14]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Like most role players, Roy needs to be placed within the right system and surrounded by the right type of players around him in order to maximize his effectiveness. And even at his maximum effectiveness, he is still producing at an average or slightly above average rate in terms of statistical production.

I agree with some of this, but this is the same thing with Lance. Roy has value, but the original discussion was if Roy was still an elite starting caliber player.

Also, Hibbert isn't defending well, his opponent FG% is lower than Jordan Hill. A player like Hibbert has to make his mark on defense. So I wouldn't rely on 8 points and 6 rebounds stats and say Hibbert is average. I would say you could put plenty of below average centers on the court for 23 minutes and get those numbers.

We're just going to have to wait another month to see how it plays out. But I still think the biggest indicator of Hibbert's effectiveness (and his next contract) will be how many minutes he plays.

[Trader Joe]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I mean I agree Roy is the best defensive player they have.

I also saw him get taken to the rim on post ups twice by JJ Hickson of all people last night.

[Since86]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

I don't think being able to stay in front of your man or help defense, is a "right system." And that's the Lakers problem. Their perimeter players are consistently being burned, so Roy slides over to pick up the ball in the lane, and then there's no one on the backside of the play that helps Roy.

Lakers are just bad bad bad defensively. They're giving up nearly 117pts so far and letting opponents shoot 48.6%. Roy probably feels like Chevy Chase in Vacation, where he's trying to plug the hole in the Hoover dam and another one pops up. Someone get him some more gum.

[Sollozzo]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

The problem is that unlike the Dirk Mavs or Duncan Spurs, the Lakers didn't even try to plan for life when Kobe got old. Part of that is Kobe's fault though. He has a massive ego, wanted to still get paid like he was the best, and wanted the team to revolve around him. That contract extension was so egregious after his injury. Compare that to how Dirk and Duncan signed far more friendly deals at the end of their careers.

I say all of this as a big Kobe fan, but the way he's ending his career is just kind of sad.

[Ace E.Anderson]

Re: All things Roy Hibbert for the next year or so....

Like most role players, Roy needs to be placed within the right system and surrounded by the right type of players around him in order to maximize his effectiveness. And even at his maximum effectiveness, he is still producing at an average or slightly above average rate in terms of statistical production.

I still think he and the Lakers will have better showings as the year progresses. But man they need to fire Byron Scott. That guy is a terrible coach.