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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I think a .500 team.
I think a .500 team.
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
Xindyfan this is not meant as a slam at you I am just using your post as a jumping point to get up on my high horse. Your question is valid & I’m glad that you asked it so when I say some of you, I am not talking about you.
Now that I have that out of the way I want to say this.
What some of you fail to understand and this I think is really where the biggest divide between people here on the board is this.
Some of us don’t give a damn about what our record is or will be this season. I said in my first posting trying to give O’Brien a break that I wasn’t going to judge this season on wins or losses but on development and a changing of the style of play.
Let us all concede this right now so that we can all give Jim O’Brien a break and an excuse if you will. There is not enough talent on this team right now to be a contender.
There might be enough talent on this team right now to be a peripheral playoff team, but I doubt that it has the talent level to go very far.
To me and I’m sure others that is not and has never been the point.
We understand that they may lose. We understand that they are losing right now.
It is how they are losing and the players that are losing that we have issues with.
Yes, I’m sure if he played Josh & Tyler at the four with Roy & Jeff at the five and Brandon, Danny & Paul at the wings with Collison getting the majority of min. at the point guard spot someone would complain if we weren’t winning.
But at the end of the day most of us understand this isn’t a finished product.
So with that in mind nobody that I have ever read or seen on here has suggested that getting rid of Jim O’Brien will somehow magically turn the club into a juggernaut that no one can stop.
Our problem is that we do understand that the talent level is not good enough to compete right now for anything of real significance so what we are looking for is development of players who will be here when we are possibly contending again. We don’t want to see massive amounts of minutes by (I’m just going to go ahead and say it) James Posey while Tyler Hansbrough sits and does nothing on the bench or while Josh McRoberts gets sometimes 12 min. or less a game.
So to answer the question in general, no a new coach will not have a significantly better record than what we have right now however what we are wanting is for other players to be the focus of the team and a different style of play.
Here is another big secret. We are losing now we are losing with Jim’s style of play and have lost with his style of play for over three years. We have lost 11 of our previous 16 games and each game during that spell we seem to revert more and more to his old faithful.
A new coach may not change the overall record although I will say I don’t think they will do any worse, but they damn well will change the direction of the game and the players who are playing.
Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
X________________________Originally posted by Peck View Post
How are we ever going to know if Tyler or Josh can be a real starting 4
If Hibbert can handle being the main Post threat in a typical offense
If Collison or Price can truly be a starting PG, and if their bodies can hold up to it
If Brandon can ever be consistent
If Danny can be an all star in a typical offense
We need to see a traditional offense and we need to see these players, along with the Rookies, in it in order to evaluate them and in order for them to learn from their mistakes.
Posey, Dun, Foster and TJ aren't apart of this team for very much longer. They aren't going to learn from their mistakes, and they aren't going to help us win anything more than our younger players will. Why are they playing?Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I also appreciate what Xindyfan is attempting to point out. I would probably take exception to stating that we have 2 quality starters because I do not include Roy in that classification, at least not yet.Originally posted by Peck View Post
If I can expound upon what Peck has stated regarding a new coach not winning more games, but probably doing no worse. I think that almost any other coach would look at this team and also recognize that getting into the playoffs would be a challenge.
Perhaps because of that recognition, I think that most other coaches would emphasize what I always want a coach to emphasize. "WIN THE GAMES THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF WINNING". It's that simple; don't tinker around with lineups that have gotten you a lead just because you prefer other other players down the stretch. Go with what got you there. "WIN THE GAMES THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF WINNING".
Every team will miss some opportunities late in a game by making a defensive mistake here or there, or perhaps not executing their offense the best it can be done as the game winds down. That is a loss in games that I believe we would all agree simply got away from us. And, that happens more often with lesser experienced teams or with teams that do not have "quality" at most positions. To me, that is to be expected.
But what I mean by "WIN THE GAMES THAT YOU ARE CAPABLE OF WINNING" is that you never, never whiz away a game because of a conscious decision to go in a different direction from what has made you so competitive in the game in the first place. These are not games that simply get away from you; these are games that are flat out blown. And quite frankly, I think we've had probably 3-4 games already that I would put into this category. And that is something I do not put on the players, despite the fact that we are often outmanned at most positions on the floor.
If we could have won those games and executed a little better in others that we did let get away from us, I believe we could be a couple of games above .500 at this point.Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
RE: Peck's post.......you guys have created a "Thanks" button...why not create a "Post Of the Year" button?
Cuz if you did....I would nominate your post as a worthy candidate.Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I think the fact is we have quality team oriented guys who all have come from winning college programs playing for some great college coaches. I feel that right now they are playing the way they are being coached to play. I don't see how any honest appraisal of how good our players are can be made by a simple comparison to where they rank by position. What I found interesting is that the Spurs players arent at the top of the by position list,best record in the league and all.Last edited by HOOPFANATIC; 01-06-2011, 01:21 AM.Protect the Promise!!!!
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I appreciate the perspective you bring to the discussion. However, I think Duncan, Parker, Manu are all much higher on their respective positional lists than anyone we have at those positons. At least for the time being. Actually, I'd say Manu is top 5 among SGs. Arguably top 3 depending on who you include there. For instance do Wade and Pierce qualify as SGs?Originally posted by HOOPFANATIC View PostI'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.
-Emiliano ZapataComment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
This^^^^^Originally posted by Sookie View Post
Because they (the younger players) are either the problem or the solution. We need to determine which. In order to do that, we need somebody who will make a roatation and stick to it. Worry less about matchups and worry more about seeing what's there to work with. Work more on emphasizing their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses (if they are to be primary rotation players) and worry less on sitting them down for extended periods of time. If, after all that, we still have a team that has not got enough talent or potential to at least reach the middle level of the Eastern Conference, then we need to look hard at the front office...Right now I think he's trying to ride the veterans to the best possible record (I can't blame him for that. It's his job to win games, bottom line) and the rest of it be damned.http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
"But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I think that is a common misconception. But saying I think is not good enough.Originally posted by IndySDExport View Post
I will count the number of pick and rolls the pacers run against the spurs. Anyone want to set the over/under. I think it is a lot more than most realize. Probably should count for 3 or 4 games just so we get a good number. I will count every pick and roll they run whether it is on a delayed fastbreak situation or if they run 2 or 3 on one play.
Onto the question in this thread. How good are the Pacers players. Right now there are pretty awful - blame the coach if you want, but the evidence is they are bad right now.
But overall they are better than last season. I am just going to compare last season when the talent level was at an alltime low level (probably a 20 plus year low level for this franchise)
Essentially the Pacers had added Dunleavy, Collison, an improved Roy, improved Josh, and maybe Jeff and Tyler are more physically able to play. Early on Ford was playing better than last season. The team is more talented than last year. Probably at best this is a .500 team, maybe 42 wins at most.
Maybe the bigger problem is how the talent is distributed across the roster.
Point guard is decent, Ford is a good backup, Collison is a legitimate starting NBA point guard.
Shooting guard and small forward is at a fringe playoff level.
But the problem is at power forward and center. I love Foster but he is old and cannot physically play many minutes. Josh just isn't very good - on 75% of the NBA teams he is a 10th man at best. Roy is a decent starter, but if he is your best big guy you are in big big big trouble. Solo wouldn't be on most NBA rosters. Tyler, is young and hopefully will develop into something.
I said last season the pacers 4's and 5's were the worst collection of defenders by far of any NBA team. The improvement of Roy and trading Troy has helped the defense , but the offense is a problem for the bigs. The pacers bigs just aren't even fringe playoff caliberLast edited by Unclebuck; 01-06-2011, 08:51 AM.Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I agree, that was my point, I was referencing the original posters positional list. I don't like to judge players by whose better at their positions. I'm a firm believer that Basketball is a team sport.Originally posted by D-BONE View PostProtect the Promise!!!!Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
wade does. why woulnt he??Originally posted by D-BONE View PostComment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
I think both Hibbert and Collinson are better than they have looked lately, the system does not take advantage of their talents. They both also have the potential to improve a lot.
Hibbert: from the couple games I've been able to watch, the P's are absolutely TERRIBLE at feeding the post. He's a low post player, but the other players don't have the ability to get him the ball there. I've seen it several times where Hibbert would get great position in the post, and the player feeding him would stand outside waiting for a clear passing lane to open up. They have to MOVE and find or create the passing lane. Eventually Hibbert would lose his position inside or would give up and come out to the high post where he isn't as effective. The few times he does get the ball in the low post, its a terrible pass that he has to give up his position to corral the ball in. His defense: I think it is decent for where he is at in his career.
Collinson: this guy is a playmaker, he needs to be given the reigns of the offense and get the chance to create for himself and his teammates. His D deffinitely needs work though.
All the other players: I think they are about as good as they are gonna get. Rush is pretty good already, he just needs to work on consistency and staying aggressive. We all know how good Granger is, he is just in a funk, as are most of the players. Again I think this has to do with the system.Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
As we sit today, we have 3 guys on this roster who are 9 man rotation guys for an elite team.
The real question is this though? How do we go about finding the other 6 needed to compete? The "3 year plan" has thus far provided 1 quality guy every 2 years.
So at the Current rate, assuming everyone resigns and stays healthy. We should be able to compete in or around 2022-2024.
The trick is for us REAL FANS to stay patient.Comment
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Re: Just How Good are the Pacer Players??
Who are those 3 players? By my count we have at least 5 players. With potentially 3 more if they actually got playing time.Originally posted by aaronb View Post
Right now we have the talent to be a solid playoff team (seeds 3-6), right now we would be on the lower end. If we kept who we have with additions this team would be bordering on elite with the talent. This team still has holes, and some depth problems at the PF and C positions. McRoberts and Tyler would need to improve a lot for either to be deemed starting material, but they will both make for good back-ups. Back-up C is obvious. Our wing positions are up and down solid. Rush can both play lockdown defense, and score 16ish points very efficiently. We all know that Granger can score, and when he tries he plays great defense. We have two young promising PGs that right now might not be anything more than back-ups on good teams, but both have the potential to be good starters on any team.Last edited by Eleazar; 01-06-2011, 04:57 PM.Comment
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