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Things we learned from the playoffs

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  • #1

    Things we learned from the playoffs

    Sorry guys I just don't have it in me to crank out an Odd Thoughts tonight. Not depressed per say but just sad that it came to an end. Love our team.

    I'll say that again because for the first time since 2000 I can say I love our team without reservation. There are improvements that can be made of course but I don't want the fact that I'm going to talk about things in what we have learned to diminish the fact that I love our team.

    What have we learned?

    Danny Granger has another gear. This has been the question that many of us have asked for six seasons now, is what you get from Danny during the regular season the best he can play or does he have another notch to turn to on his post season dial. I think the answer is, yes he does. Many people are talking about needing a closer or getting a higher scorer and Danny can be second fiddle. Sure if someone wants to drop one of those superstar closers on our team who am I to complain. But since these people don’t grow on tree’s we are going to have to be realistic and try and build with Danny. To some people this will be a horror filled thought that will induce nausea and vomiting. But to me I still believe we can advance with Danny being the best player. How far can we advance? I don’t know but if he had a solid team around him I think he will be fine.

    Dahntay Jones has another gear. Yes his offense is as subtle as a Sherman tank and yes he looks to pass as often as A.J. Price does (which is not very often) but he and Tyler & Jeff for that matter share one trait in common. They have a high motor and it is constantly running. His defense, which he has been the subject of scorn for months by some, was in full display in the three games he played and not once was he found wanting. No, he is never going to be anything more than a good solid rotational bench player but there is no way this guy should not be in a rotation. Some people wilt in the playoff spotlight, D. Jones is not one of them.

    Paul George has another defensive gear, for certain. I’ll just go ahead now and say that games 2 – 4 his defense was at an elite level. He pestered, harassed, bumped and bothered Rose into poor shooting performances. Sadly game 5 he sort of slipped off, but still slipping off from where he was just brought him down to just being good on defense. His offense is going to need some work, but right now his defense is already there.

    Darren Collison might have another gear, although I’m not sure. Sadly due to injury, you know the one that wasn’t the subject of every single reporters and analyst commentary, we will probably not know how effective he could have been this series. However he did not embarrass himself this series. I still worry greatly about his height and his court vision. But overall he played well enough throughout this for me to at least not be panicked about the point guard spot.

    Tyler Hansbrough…. This is a tough one. I don’t want to say that he does not have another gear, yet I’m also forced to make certain that I don’t say he does. He had one good game, one great game, two less than stellar games and one horrid game. I’ll take into consideration that he is a first time playoff person and still has never had a year of solid steady min. so I think I’m just going to say I don’t know about him yet.

    Jeff Foster has another gear, but we knew that already. Not much more I can say that hasn’t been repeated ad nauseam about Jeff but its safe to say that if he wants to return to the club he will be welcomed back with open arms. Again though, it is imperative to start looking for Jeff’s replacement now, not later. He is getting very long in the tooth and with his back I don’t think it is right to expect him to play big min. during the regular season.

    Ok, now we start to talk about what we have learned but really probably did not want to know.

    Roy Hibbert in this series anyway showed he has no other gear and in fact might have stripped the gears a couple of times during this game alone. It’s bad enough in the regular season that whenever a team decides to get physical with Roy that he sometimes wilts and on rare occasions he come through. But in the playoffs where every game is going to be a war and the deeper you get into the playoffs the better the oppositions center is going to be I’ll just say that I’m really worried. In fact, sad to admit this but Roy’s inadequacy’s make it so that we really need to look at a different type of power forward. While both Tyler & Josh are fine by themselves neither of them is going to be able to hand the very physical centers that Roy is not going to be able to handle. So much like Rik Smits needed Dale Davis I think Roy is going to need a big bulky power forward to either work along side him or replace him when he goes to the bench.

    Mike Dunleavy has been found wanting. Ok, I’ll admit it now. I was very disappointed with Mike’s playoff debut. I honestly thought he would be the offensive spark that we need coming off of the bench. However there is a sad truth here that some are not going to like. The playoffs are more physical and athletic than the regular season and players like Mike are at a disadvantage. He’s not a deadeye shooter like Korver so he can’t milk that from his game. Maybe vs. a different team he could have been more effective but my honest opinion now that I have seen him play in the playoffs is that Mike really is always going to struggle with big min. Not saying he can’t contribute but can you really think of one game where you looked back and said “man we need to get Dunleavy in there”.

    A.J. Price needs to be deprogrammed and sent to a new training camp with a new coach. If it’s Vogel fine if it’s whoever else our coach is fine as well. But this guy has got to learn to be a point guard again. Yes I appreciate the shots he hit at home he hit some big ones. But overall this guy just has almost given up on running an offense and has just decided to be a destitute man’s Allen Iverson. I’m blaming this on being forced into Lucifer’s service for a year and a half and two training camps under him. His defense was ok, but not stellar. But my God the offense is just abysmal when he is in there. Yes, I know he doesn’t have a lot of choices but still.

    Josh McRoberts is also a quandary. Why oh why are they keeping whatever is wrong with his leg a secret? It was obvious tonight, and every night for that matter, Josh could not elevate. With that in mind we just got a dose of what Josh must work on to stay in the NBA for a good amount of time. Some day the legs will fail you, now is the time to work on positioning, leverage and strength. No you are never going to be Kevin Willis but you have got to get some more upper body strength and start learning better rebounding techniques. Like Tyler I’m giving Josh an incomplete for this series due to injury.

    Brandon Rush, I almost forgot to do Brandon but then I found the irony in that to be that I often forget Brandon is on the floor. Brandon’s dwindling playing time during this series said all that needed to be said. Hit a couple of shots but other than that, Meh.

    I want to leave on an upbeat note and I’m going to do it by making a bold statement that I know many will disagree with.

    First the complimentary background statement. I have seen every playoff game the Indiana Pacers have ever played in during their tenure in the NBA. I have been to every home playoff game that we have ever played minus two games (so yes Uncle Buck has me beaten by one). I say all of that to say this.

    This was the best performance in the playoffs by our club that I have ever seen based on the talent & experience available. That includes the great years of 94-2000.

    Now hold on before your eyes totally pop out of your skull let me clarify. Never have I seen a team come so far in such a little time with so little experience and no star power at all to battle a team toe to toe game to game (minus the last one) than I have with this team.

    Sure we have fielded better teams in fact we have fielded a lot better teams. But each of them had something that this team did not have and that is both experience and star power.

    Look back over this series and think to yourself for a moment. Other than Danny night in and night out giving you a good game what one player stood out to you every night? In fact there were several nights if you looked at the box score you were probably trying to figure out how we stayed so close, let alone have a lead for most of the games.

    We fought as a team and we fought well enough that legitimately we can talk about being disappointed that we didn’t split the series. Think about that again for a min. we were the worst team in the playoffs they were the best. Game five’s outcome should have by all rights been at least 3 or 4 more of those games outcomes.

    I give credit to the players for laying it on the line and I of course once again will give credit to Frank Vogel.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

    Originally posted by Peck View Post
    Not saying he can’t contribute but can you really think of one game where you looked back and said “man we need to get Dunleavy in there”.
    I will absolutely say Mike's production in the series was horrid. And that is keeping it nicely. But I have to say during that horrible 6 game losing streak towards the end of the season the offense jsut wasn't moving like it did when he was in there. I did tell my g/f "They could use Mike so bad right now" a few times. Not necessarily for his scoring, but he does help the offense flow.

    And this is a very great post.
    Last edited by Constellations; 04-27-2011, 05:06 AM.
    Follow me at @Bluejbgold

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    • #3
      Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

      Couldn't have said it better myself. I think we should have went with a different strategy though. Since the whole team have a skill they are good at and none of them are stars, why not start brandon rush and dahnte jones over Granger and George. Sound crazy? Well you have Jones on Rose and Rush on Deng. Jones harrased Rose, Rush is a pretty good defender. He could keep deng under control. That isnt the point tho. Once Rose and Deng come out thats when you bring in Danny And George. Danny wouldnt have to defend Deng and he wouldnt have deng guarding him. He would have had an advantage and would have probibly scored more points. If rose didnt come out, which he doesnt alot George still could have guarded him. Im half asleep so this probibly isnt coming out right, but basically I feel like Jones and rush are good enough on defense to keep the bulls from scoring alot and both of them can score good enough. Between DC, Jones, Rush, Hibbert and Tyler I see it as they could end the 1st quarter of games close. Something like 22-20 thus bringing in granger and george against the bulls second unit, still having good defense on the court and more offense...Over all tho we played alot better than anyone expected. Everyone had the broom out and we could have easily swept them if we can close the game. The whole series all i could think about was the Josh Mcbob for OJ Mayo trade that didnt go down. If that would have went down, I think we win this series...good play pacers.
      Craig "The Coon" Gehlhausen

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      • #4
        Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

        Great, great post.

        Things that we learned from the playoffs?

        I learned that Paul George will likely be a cornerstone of this franchise for many, many years to come. And, I don't care if his offensive game does not develop one bit (though I'm sure it will, many times over).

        The kid just defended (arguably) the toughest cover in the entire Association and did it with such remarkable tenacity, length and foot speed that I was absolutely amazed by his progression. Sure, Rose got his in the end, but I think George defended him just about as well as anybody on the planet could and the kid's only 20! That is big-time defense on a big-time stage. Another gear, for sure.

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        • #5
          Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

          I dont know what I learned. But it seemed as though the Pacer's team learned alot. The postgame locker room interviews pumped me up.

          http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/originals/
          "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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          • #6
            Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

            Originally posted by rock747 View Post
            I dont know what I learned. But it seemed as though the Pacer's team learned alot. The postgame locker room interviews pumped me up.

            http://www.nba.com/pacers/video/originals/
            Roy's interview left me with the impression that he understands how important he is to this team. He knows he let his teammates down. He hears the criticism, he understands it's warranted. That gives me hope that we'll see him work his tail off to become a better player this summer. I know he's incredibly frustrating at times, and I'm sure a lot of Pacers fans are ready to give up on him, but if anyone gets it, it's Roy.

            Danny exemplified everything I want from a leader. During the regular season, he might have taken some plays (or even games) off. He wasn't always the most vocal or even the most visible, unless he was taking a bad shot. But this is where leaders are made and Danny answered the call. "He elbowed two of my power forwards..." Yes, Danny. It's clearly your team now. If you were advertised as the leader before, it was by default. Now, you've earned it. Now let's get you some help.
            2015, 2016, 2019 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champions - DC Dreamers

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            • #7
              Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

              That Bulls fans seem to harbor such strong vitriol for Danny makes me even happier about his presence on the team.

              Also, in an attempt to refrain from negativity, I will only say that I have much concern about Roy's role on the team for the foreseeable future.
              You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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              • #8
                Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                Mike Dunleavy has been found wanting. Ok, I’ll admit it now. I was very disappointed with Mike’s playoff debut. I honestly thought he would be the offensive spark that we need coming off of the bench. However there is a sad truth here that some are not going to like. The playoffs are more physical and athletic than the regular season and players like Mike are at a disadvantage. He’s not a deadeye shooter like Korver so he can’t milk that from his game. Maybe vs. a different team he could have been more effective but my honest opinion now that I have seen him play in the playoffs is that Mike really is always going to struggle with big min. Not saying he can’t contribute but can you really think of one game where you looked back and said “man we need to get Dunleavy in there”.
                No to be a d*** or anything, but this is pretty much what I predicted was going to happen, there was not need for him to play at all, Vogel should had play DJ since the beginning.
                @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                • #9
                  Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                  Originally posted by Peck View Post
                  Roy Hibbert in this series anyway showed he has no other gear and in fact might have stripped the gears a couple of times during this game alone. It’s bad enough in the regular season that whenever a team decides to get physical with Roy that he sometimes wilts and on rare occasions he come through. But in the playoffs where every game is going to be a war and the deeper you get into the playoffs the better the oppositions center is going to be I’ll just say that I’m really worried. In fact, sad to admit this but Roy’s inadequacy’s make it so that we really need to look at a different type of power forward. While both Tyler & Josh are fine by themselves neither of them is going to be able to hand the very physical centers that Roy is not going to be able to handle. So much like Rik Smits needed Dale Davis I think Roy is going to need a big bulky power forward to either work along side him or replace him when he goes to the bench.


                  This. What he said. Roy = Charmin.

                  And, despite what Spazzxxb wanted to say in my previous thread about Hibs, it pains to me face this reality. I had very high hopes for Roy on draft night a few years ago, but I think he has reached his potential.

                  My love of Granger increased in this series and I'm pretty excited about George. I loves me some Dahntay Jones, too.


                  Name-calling signature removed

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                  • #10
                    Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                    Nice post!

                    Here's what I believe I've learned. These are the guys on the current roster I definitely want to see back:

                    -DG
                    -PG
                    -DJ
                    -TH
                    -JF (unless he decides to hang it up)

                    Nobody of the remainder has impressed me to the point where I would be disappointed if they weren't back. Certainly, Roy and DC are borderline guys who might yet improve, but each has key core weaknesses that I'm not sure more experience can rectify - Roy's physical strength/athletic challenges and Darren's mediocre or worse handles/vision/size.

                    Nobody on the roster is off limits for a good deal though. DG really favorably impressed me in the series. That said, it does not change the fact that, given his skill set, on a mid-level playoff to contending team, his best role is offensive second option or option 1A, if you prefer.
                    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                    -Emiliano Zapata

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                    • #11
                      Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                      I have always been a Dunleavey fan and certainly not a Rush fan but both should be gone now. I would like to retain Foster and possibly McRob if he is very cheap, 2+M/year max but that's it. We need wings who can shoot and someone to help Roy who can't do it alone in the paint.
                      Our best player was comparable to Deng who is probably the 3rd or 4th best player on Chicago's team but the pacers certainly gave us our money's worth this playoff so there is a lot to look forward to.

                      We need a steal in free agency going forward.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                        Yes I'm disappointed in Roy's soft play, but I'm not ready to give up on our 25 year old center. Putting frustrations aside there is still time.
                        You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                        • #13
                          Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                          I think it would be incredibly shortsighted to close the book on Roy after his 3rd season, and 1st postseason. I don't want to lean on cheap cliches, but it takes big men longer to put it all together. Roy has put in alot of work to get better, and I think he'll do even more this offseason. He definitely needs to get stronger, which I think he will. We need to give Roy a little more time before assigning him to the 'he is what he is' category.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                            If I were running the team, I would look hard at trading Roy. Not get rid of Roy, but trade Roy, and by trade I don't mean for a second round draft pick in 2029. But he probably has some pretty high trade value - likely third behind Danny and George. So package Roy with Brandon and see what we could get. Someone will ask me who do I have in mind? I don't know yet.

                            So while I would see what we could get for Roy, I would do everything I could to trade Brandon. He brings nothing to our team that is unique, plus we have traded him twice already, so I would be shocked if he is back next season.


                            Foster I would guess might be back, maybe 50/50. Dunleavy will not be back, he was a better fit with JOB's system, so he is gone.


                            Tyler's best role? I don't know if you listened to Steve Kerr last night discuss what Vogel told him about Tyler, that is the whole team feeds off Tyler's energy - if you believe that and I do, in order for that to have a big influence on the team Tyler needs to start. Although in theory he would be great as an energy guy off the bench. But if we do trade Roy and bring in a more athletic big guy, I think Tyler can start.


                            Danny and George I am fine with. Collison is the biggest question im my mind. He is only a second year player so he will get better, but the question is does he have the necessary upside to be what we need. if you assume Danny and Paul are locked in at the 2 and 3 - is Darren what we need? I have my serious doubts.


                            So if we aren't going to get a player better than Danny, the bottonline is in order to be a championship contender, I think we need players better than Roy and darren. if somehow we can get a player better than danny, then sure Roy and Darren might be good enough. >>


                            I am only looking at our top 8 players or so, players 9-12 I don't spend too much time worrying about -besiudes those players are not our problem. Josh coming off the bench for 15 minutes a game is fine. I will say I really don't want Price on the team next season - he's just not very good. Lance has talent, but too much baggage. Jones is fine for 15 minutes a game, if Jeff comes back and can play some that is fine.


                            Ok, that is my off-the-top of my head evaluation of this team.


                            I think Vogel deserves to be our coach, although if I were in charge I would go through the process, see who else is interested and also I would want to know what Vogel plans to do with this team when he has a full traning camp - what didn't he have time to install that he wanted to.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                              Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                              I think Vogel deserves to be our coach, although if I were in charge I would go through the process, see who else is interested and also I would want to know what Vogel plans to do with this team when he has a full traning camp - what didn't he have time to install that he wanted to.
                              I still have really mixed feelings on Vogel as coach. My heart says yes because of his dedication the last part of the season. But if Frank doesn't plan on bringing in a veteran coach to help on the bench then I'm not satisfied with his decision making.
                              You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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