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Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

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  • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Bankers hours, haha!

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    • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

      Donnie did a great job with the foundational process of building a long-term winner.

      It was the underwhelming "over the top" moves that never seemed to work out (Ricky Pierce, Eddie Johnson, Mullin, Bender, Steven Jackson) where he fell short. Or the infinitely doable "over the top" moves that could have really mattered such as Derek Harper during the 94/95 run or Barkley during the 98/99 run.

      Comment


      • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

        Originally posted by rm1369 View Post
        West couldn't hold his position in the playoffs against a small forward.
        Seriously folks, I do not want to keep criticizing West. West is truly one of my favorite players. I really like the guy because he's a real smart guy and an inspiration. I've read his interviews and it's made me really appreciate him.

        But I have to keep repeating this until Pacers fans realize this.

        As rm1369 said above (thank God, finally I'm not the only one saying this) David West got SHUT DOWN by Shane Battier! A small forward! A BACKUP small forward! It'd be one thing if West got shutdown because Miami was forced to put LBJ on him, probably the most talented and best defender the NBA will ever see. But no, that didn't happen. He got shut down by Battier.

        It'd be one thing if we didn't care about West's scoring. If he was bringing so much more to the table to help this team win. To prove why he deserves that 10m a year contract.

        If West was Serge Ibaka? We wouldn't give a **** if they left Mike Miller on him. Why? Because on defense he'd grab at least 10 rebounds and he'd be throwing shots left and right. But wait, that's right, West can't block shots! Or Rebound! Or play particularly good defense!!

        Oh but, that's right, the reason West is so integral to this teams success is his "leadership."

        Someone for the love of bacon please tell me how West's supposed leadership makes up for the fact that he can't defend or rebound? Or score unless he happens to have a real good matchup? Seriously?

        I've written this critique of his game in a particularly unflattering way. I'm sorry I had to write it that way. It's only because people have to realize that at the end of the day, basketball is about talent and skill. Not mythical intangibles. One of the true weaknesses on this team is at PF. This is alarming because not only is West one of the Pacer's highest paid players, I am extremely confident they have absolutely no qualms with giving him a long term contract after this season.

        Edit - At the risk of giving you guys an extremely poor argument, I'd like to point out what I think West has actually brought to this team and why at least temporarily, West truly helped this team. Before last season this team was extremely inexperienced and had no concept on how to win. West brought a level of toughness and leadership that was sorely needed. He really helped this team quickly grow up. That was needed. Temporarily. But not anymore. This team DOES no how to win. They do know how to play tough, score the ball, and they have the confidence to beat anyone. So you know what they need from West now? Performance! Rebounding, Defense, protecting the rim! West's leadership is a nice addition, but that sort of leadership is easily replaced. I think Hill provides much of the same qualities. This team desperately needs to have a front line that can punish opposing teams.

        I'll give you an example of a team that can absolutely destroy any other team in the NBA with it's front court. The Memphis Grizzlies. They have a starting center that is Roy Hibbert's equal in almost every way. They also have a guy at powerforward that no NBA analyst would consider a "great leader." But we all know what Zach Randolph can do when healthy to an opposing teams front line. Which is more important folks? Zach Randolphs dominance or West's "leadership"?

        We all know the answer to that.

        Stop referring to West as this teams MVP. Stop making him out to be some hero he's not. We desperately needed leadership and someone who could play the PF position better than Hands Bro, who's probably the worst PF in the NBA. That doesn't mean West is a stud. It means he filled a temporary need, and he's replacable.
        Last edited by mattie; 07-25-2012, 07:37 AM.

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        • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

          One last point- argue all you want about West and how great he is. Fine. Ok. Sweet, whatever I'll eventually just have to give it up. But for ****s sake stop saying he's this teams "Dale Davis." Seriously?

          West can't hold a candle to Dale Davis' abilities. Dale Davis could defend ANY PF in the NBA. He was also one of the best rebounders in the NBA. So NO, West isn't in the same ballpark as Dale Davis. Sorry. Just stop it.

          Comment


          • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

            Originally posted by mattie View Post
            West's leadership is a nice addition, but that sort of leadership is easily replaced.
            Here is where you and I completely disagree. I can see your point otherwise, although, I think you go too far to underplay his impact on the court from strictly an ability/performance standpoint, but its at least a fair argument/discussion. I just completely disagree that the toughness/leadership/intangibles he brings to the table are easily replaced. His prescence ,as part of the team ,is huge, imo, with not many guys who could fill that void, in the league.

            I've watched both extremes with this team over the years, where you had a team of pros, pros and later a team of rudderless apathetic boneheads. Its such a big deal and impacts the w/l column more than any block shots stat from your PF position ever will.
            Last edited by Speed; 07-25-2012, 07:44 AM.

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            • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

              Originally posted by Speed View Post
              Here is where you and I completely disagree. I can see your point otherwise, although, I think you go too far to underplay his impact on the court from strictly an ability/performance standpoint, but its at least a fair argument/discussion. I just completely disagree that the toughness/leadership/intangibles he brings to the table are easily replaced. His prescence ,as part of the team ,is huge, imo, with not many guys who could fill that void, in the league.

              I've watched both extremes with this team over the years, where you had a team of pros, pros and later a team of rudderless apathetic boneheads. Its such a big deal and impacts the w/l column more than any block shots stat from your PF position ever will.
              I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

              I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

              But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

              In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

              Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
              Last edited by mattie; 07-25-2012, 08:22 AM.

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              • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                Originally posted by mattie View Post
                I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

                I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

                But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

                In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

                Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
                David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.
                Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel

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                • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                  Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post
                  David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.

                  He is not in an "all star level form".


                  And to Mattie's and Speed's comments, I expect the Pacers to run Dwest until the ground the same way they did with Foster, the Pacers overvalue leadership over production big time.
                  @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                    Originally posted by Pacergeek View Post
                    David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.
                    There are a lot of players in this league that should be starters but few that have the talent to start on a championship level team. Antonio Davis once again is a great example of that. He wasn't good enough to start over Dale Davis on a championship caliber team in 98 but he was good enough to be third on the team in minutes. Meaning he absolutely was among the five best players on that team. But he wanted to go start on another team which is why Donnie granted his wish. He also later regretted it saying he didn't know what he had in Indiana until he left.

                    I actually get a little bit giddy thinking about West playing off the bend in an AD like role. Both were short but extremely stocking players allowing them the ability to defend centers. West likewise, would end up playing heavy minutes because like AD, this team has a particularly talented center that cannot play heavy minutes. (makes sense doesn't it?)

                    Comment


                    • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                      I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

                      "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)


                      "He’s no shrinking violet when it comes to that kind of stuff."

                      - Rick Carlisle on how Kevin Pritchard responds to needed roster changes.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                        Originally posted by mattie View Post
                        I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

                        I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

                        But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

                        In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

                        Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
                        I think that West has been the perfect "stop-gap" player for the Pacers. An effective vet who can score consistently, while also showing the younger players the things that are necessary in order to improve. I actually think he will be much more effective this season due to a longer summer of rehabilitation (he only was able to rehab for like half the summer last year because he got injured so late) and a full training camp with the team.

                        I thought he only had 2 sub par games against the Heat (games 4 and 5 where he totaled 18 point) but he still ended up averaging just under 15ppg for the series so he wasn't a COMPLETE non-factor. However as someone else eluded to; he had to play far too many minutes in that series. After a shortened season on a rehabbed knee, AND after being our most consistent performer against ORL, it was only a matter of time before the big man was fatigued.

                        With all that said, if we re-sign him after next season I do hope it is within a backup type of role. D. West is still good enough to be a good 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team, but he's not dominant enough offensively to be taking too shots away from Paul George, and/or Roy Hibbert--whom we hope to develop into cornerstones of this franchise. With the second unit however, he would be a very good, reliable scorer, and easily the 1st option.

                        To add to the idea, our team is slowly turning into a younger, long, athletic type of team (GH, PG, GG, Mahinmi, Plumlee) and I think to fully make that transition, we'll need a starting 4 that fits the bill. It'd be ideal to have a 4-man who is okay being between the 3'rd or 5th option offensively, but is committed to defense, rebounding, shot-blocking, etc. D.West is kind of the opposite of that.

                        So I agree with your assessment of D. West wholeheartedly. But as you said, would he be okay with that type of role at this point in his career?

                        Comment


                        • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                          Originally posted by DrFife View Post
                          I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

                          "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)
                          I'd freak. That'd be amazing, and would absolutely show that West is a great leader.

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                          • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                            Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
                            Melo and Howard both took their team to a conference finals. DWill had a nice run with Utah until Boozer left you need a supporting cast.
                            Pacers went to the conference finals 4 out of 6 years and the NBA finals another year from 93-94 to 99-00 but Walsh is still considered to be unable to put together a decent team. Why are these guys still considered the Ultimate Superstars when they can't do the same?

                            Originally posted by Peck View Post
                            Ahhh..... Walsh Warriors. This takes me back.
                            I'd have appreciated folks at least letting some of these guys play a game before consigning us to Donnie Walsh hell where we "only" get to the ECF 80% of the time (or just spend forever being one and done or missing the playoffs because, as always, all 14 other Eastern Conference teams improved themselves mightily while the Pacers "did nothing")

                            Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                            Like having their center injured didn't have anything to do with that, take Roy out and the Pacers are out of the playoffs.
                            So do the Pacers get credit for being a good team in the early 2000s that missed due to injuries to key players, or is that still just an "excuse" for them while it is proof of greatness for other teams?
                            BillS

                            A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                            Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                            • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                              Originally posted by DrFife View Post
                              I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

                              "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)
                              So is he hypothetically on this interview high? "Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role" yeah I wouldn't count on that
                              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                              • Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

                                So do the Pacers get credit for being a good team in the early 2000s that missed due to injuries to key players, or is that still just an "excuse" for them while it is proof of greatness for other teams?
                                And who is saying this?
                                @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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