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Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

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  • #31
    Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

    I suppose we better get this quote out for discussion. Of course we had an even better chance when we had Artest with Jax, JO, Al, Tinsley - but that didn't work out either. So DA Jax had to be traded. Sorry- Things don't always work out


    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart


    Rout by Detroit takes Indiana to 10-year low
    Pacers fall 2 games behind Magic
    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com
    April 4, 2007


    The last time the Indiana Pacers were this bad, Reggie Miller averaged 20 points a game and Larry Brown was on the fifth stop of his coaching journey around the league.

    The Detroit Pistons used a 22-2 run to win 100-85 at Conseco Fieldhouse and ensure the Pacers will finish with their worst record in at least 10 years.
    "I never would have thought that," Pacers forward Danny Granger said. "I wouldn't have thought a lot of things would have happened, though."
    The Pacers, who have been on a downward spiral since the brawl at Auburn Hills, Mich., in 2004, entered the season hoping to put their past misery behind them.

    Off-the-court issues, lack of continuity from an eight-player trade and injuries have put them in their current state, in the position of missing the playoffs for the first time since 1997.

    The Pacers, who have lost 18 of their past 21 games, are two games behind Orlando for the eighth seed and a half-game up on 10th-seeded New York.

    "I felt like this team had a chance to make it to the next level," Pacers point guard Darrell Armstrong said. "I really felt like we had a chance when we had Stephen (Jackson), Al (Harrington), Jermaine (O'Neal) and Jamaal (Tinsley). When you make a trade, it's the toughest transition for players, especially ones who are role players. Players who are scorers can come in and make it easy, because all they're going to do is shoot the ball. Role players have to find their niche.



    "It's been a struggle for everybody. We're just trying to get to the playoffs. Once you get there, it's a new season."

    Rick Carlisle is assured his first losing season as a head coach. Carlisle's record as Pacers coach has declined every season since he led them to 61 victories three years ago. He was praised for leading the Pacers to 44 wins the following season when they dealt with injuries and suspensions from the brawl, but chemistry problems caused them to finish with an underachieving 41 victories last season.

    Talk has circulated for several weeks about Carlisle's job status. He was given a contract extension and extra title last fall.

    "I don't pay attention (to the rumors)," Carlisle said after the team's shootaround Tuesday. "I'm just getting ready for the next game. I've approached this job and the Detroit job the same way: Come in every day and concentrate on the task at hand."

    It looked like Carlisle and his team were ready to beat one of the top teams in the league for the second game in a row.

    The Pacers led by 14 points with less than four minutes remaining in the first half when the Pistons, who have the best record in the Eastern Conference, trimmed the lead to three at the half.

    "The momentum started turning at that point," Armstrong said. "It wasn't in the third quarter."

    The Pistons carried their momentum into the third quarter to turn the game into a rout.

    Pistons coach Flip Saunders put Richard Hamilton on the point guards, making it tough for the Pacers to get into their offense. Saunders called the same pick-and-roll play repeatedly, leading to a mismatch for Tayshaun Prince, who scored a game-high 24 points.

    The Pistons, who led by as many as 23 points, outscored the Pacers 35-18 in the third quarter. Jermaine O'Neal returned to the lineup to get 20 points and seven rebounds.

    "We tried three different coverages and they were just too good," Carlisle said. ". . . Good teams can do that. We didn't have an answer. It's as simple as that. I don't have another explanation for it."

    Comment

    • #32
      Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

      Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
      "Those two guys they had -- Jackson and Harrington -- were so much a personality of this team as far as causing matchup problems," Pistons coach Flip Saunders said. "What happened, the other guys are having to learn a different way. You make a trade like that in the middle of the season, a lot of times those trades, when there are a lot of people involved, those things never work out right away. It takes almost a year to evaluate."
      Translation: Hey Pacers, don't feel like you need to make any major moves this summer. These things take time. Take a season to see if the team can gel.
      This space for rent.

      Comment

      • #33
        Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

        Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post

        The other factor was OFFENSIVE REBOUNDING by Detroit. It's one that at first glance the numbers seem sorta okay, but then you look closer (because you saw the 3rd quarter and that DET got about 10 2nd chance scores out of 14 made/FTAs or something)

        Shawne is a great pick, very impressive off the ball, comes to passes, fills space, shows confidence.

        Ike with JO - I like it. Ike with Harrison - I like the idea of it at the very least.

        Army STOP SHOOTING THREES!!!! Seriously, enough already. The dude doing the 3pt contest destroyed Army's shooting, maybe we should sign that guy up. He was something like 7 for 13 I think. DA puts one up, gets his miss back, puts up another miss. Argh.

        Rick waited too long to go to Greene. Putting him on Rip or Billups would have been a huge assest. He also stuck with Troy too much in the 2nd half when they were having rebounding problems.
        I'd like to agree with all the above statements.

        I'm a Carlisle supporter, but I just do not understand his substitution patterns sometimes. It was very clear about halfway through the 3rd quarter that the lineup on the floor was not working. Absolutely nothing good was happening with the starting 5 or when DA went in for Tins. How does Rick react to this? He leaves the guys who are playing like crap in the game for the next 4 minutes. At this point, the game is pretty much out of hand and it no longer matters who he plays. Somebody smart once said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That's pretty much what Rick did in the 3rd quarter.

        Two more gripes: What has McLeod done to earn playing time? Every time that Greene has played he's made something happen. He has his flaws as a PG, but DA was on the floor when McLeod came in. I don't understand it.

        Also, I don't think they ran one play for Ike in the second half. He played great against the Spurs, decent in the first half, and then he gets to play like 5 minutes in the 2nd half and they don't let him try to do the one thing he does really well: score.

        One thing that might be to blame:

        I have league pass so I frequently have to watch the games on the other teams home channels. During the Cavs game last week, their broadcasters were talking about Mike Brown's "Minutes Chart". It's basically a game plan where Brown decides, before each game, how many minutes each guy is going to get. They said that he learned it from Carlisle. I know it's probably common practice in the NBA, but it seems silly. Maybe Rick is just not willing to deviate from his enough.

        "Man, Troy's not playing well...We're getting killed on the boards...He's missed his last 5 shots and hasn't shot himself out of a slump all year...Ike played really well last game...I'd love to put Ike in for Troy, but my chart says Troy plays the first 10 minutes of each half..."

        At this point I'm officially giving them one more game to go on a winning streak and then I'll start rooting for the tank.
        "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

        - Salman Rushdie

        Comment

        • #34
          Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

          Originally posted by Anthem View Post
          Translation: Hey Pacers, don't feel like you need to make any major moves this summer. These things take time. Take a season to see if the team can gel.
          . Now why would a division rival want to offer us helpful advice like that?

          Comment

          • #35
            Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

            I love how many of you who are happy with the Al/Jack for a bag of crap trade, are still drooling over the prospect of Trading Jamaal. Are you wanting the Pacers to trade all of their talented players?

            Hey lets trade Jamaal and Jermaine for Shamond Williams and Lamar Odom that will make the Pacers complete.

            Comment

            • #36
              Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

              Originally posted by Ragnar View Post
              I love how many of you who are happy with the Al/Jack for a bag of crap trade, are still drooling over the prospect of Trading Jamaal. Are you wanting the Pacers to trade all of their talented players?

              Hey lets trade Jamaal and Jermaine for Shamond Williams and Lamar Odom that will make the Pacers complete.
              First you have to remove all the cancer and then go through chemo before you can then regain your health. Pacers are in the middle of removing cancers. It is a painful process - no one denies that

              Comment

              • #37
                Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                Originally posted by Ragnar View Post
                I love how many of you who are happy with the Al/Jack for a bag of crap trade, are still drooling over the prospect of Trading Jamaal. Are you wanting the Pacers to trade all of their talented players?
                Jamaal has what Stephen doesn't... value. We lost out on the GS trade because it had to be slanted their way in order for them to take Jack. I don't think Tinsley's viewed as the problem child that Jack was.
                This space for rent.

                Comment

                • #38
                  Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                  Originally posted by Ragnar View Post
                  I love how many of you who are happy with the Al/Jack for a bag of crap trade, are still drooling over the prospect of Trading Jamaal. Are you wanting the Pacers to trade all of their talented players?

                  Hey lets trade Jamaal and Jermaine for Shamond Williams and Lamar Odom that will make the Pacers complete.
                  Giving away more talent for less talent sucks. But there's a difference between giving away gold for bronze, and giving away irradiated gold for bronze.

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                    Originally posted by OTD View Post
                    Is it just me or do the Pacers come out the first half and play real good basketball, The when they com out the second half, they look like they need someone to tell what that round thing is.
                    I think it is more a case of their opponents just playing a little harder in the second half in order to win the game.

                    Detroit can go through the motions early in the game, then shift into a higher gear when the game is on the line. The Pacers don't really have that extra gear to shift into.

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                      Detroit reports say that words were exchanged at half time (by the players) over the Pistons' affinity for doing just that.

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                        Mellifluous - one change he was making was to sub DA for Tins. But that was frustratingly the only one. The way Murph and Dun were going I was anxious to see Ike and Shawne get back in a bit sooner than they did.

                        And as I said, you had to put Greene in and go right back at Hunter right away. They let the Pistons get aggressive and physical and retreated from it till well into the 4th when they finally started going at them hard on offense (which is when the game started to level back out...far too late).

                        I want RC to stay, but he's just as forgiving with guys like Dun and Troy as he was with Jack.

                        I'm not a bench kook, a guy that thinks that anyone not playing in certainly better than what's on the floor. All those guys have issues too. But I just thought they needed to adjust their look to match what DET was trying to do.

                        Of course normally when you are getting dusted on the boards you pull Murph for Foster, but they didn't have that luxury last night. I'm sorry but Troy is just soft. He's very likeable, but unless something changes drastically I don't see him as a serious minutes solution. As Gnome said after the game, he's mostly a gimmick player (bigs whose main asset is shooting the 3).

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                          First you have to remove all the cancer and then go through chemo before you can then regain your health. Pacers are in the middle of removing cancers. It is a painful process - no one denies that
                          You don't treat brain cancer with a guillotine though. Plus Jackson did many positives for the team, easily as much as the negatives, especially considering his near MLE salary. Cancer doesn't actually help your body.

                          People exaggerated the problems Jack caused which created an overkill solution to the issue. Not to mention the ridiculous rush and timing of the solution. Treatments often must wait until the body is ready to handle them, you can't just jump on some chemo blindly without checking for possible complications, it might KILL you rather than just cause some pain.

                          Good news, cancer's gone. Bad news, you're dead.


                          Plus didn't many of us mention at the party that we thought that the trade was pushed forward more by HARRINGTON'S attitude? Remember that Rick benched him to start the 2nd half of a game. How long after that did the trade occur? A lot closer to that than to Jack's Rio situation. Jack got benched and 5 games later was returned to the starting lineup, they considered playing without him and decided against it. And they didn't trade him a week after that either.

                          Plus the "cancer" was the guy hugging Rick after the GS game. Al and Saras were long gone and showed no real affinity toward the Pacers or the fans. Jack clearly liked the people he left behind, including the coach he always fought with. He had to go out of his way to find Rick at the other end of the court after everyone was clearing out.

                          I'm not trying to be "Jack is the greatest", but this "Jack is cancer" thing is just over the top. He was emotional and childish and not the best solution for SG. He was also being paid like an average guy, well below the elite SGs. I think he's around 20th in non-rookie SG contracts, maybe lower. Quis is getting Jackson money. How's that been going? More or less helpful with his 0 mpg?

                          Comment

                          • #43
                            Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                            You don't treat brain cancer with a guillotine though. Plus Jackson did many positives for the team, easily as much as the negatives, especially considering his near MLE salary. Cancer doesn't actually help your body.

                            People exaggerated the problems Jack caused which created an overkill solution to the issue. Not to mention the ridiculous rush and timing of the solution. Treatments often must wait until the body is ready to handle them, you can't just jump on some chemo blindly without checking for possible complications, it might KILL you rather than just cause some pain.

                            Good news, cancer's gone. Bad news, you're dead.


                            Plus didn't many of us mention at the party that we thought that the trade was pushed forward more by HARRINGTON'S attitude? Remember that Rick benched him to start the 2nd half of a game. How long after that did the trade occur? A lot closer to that than to Jack's Rio situation. Jack got benched and 5 games later was returned to the starting lineup, they considered playing without him and decided against it. And they didn't trade him a week after that either.

                            Plus the "cancer" was the guy hugging Rick after the GS game. Al and Saras were long gone and showed no real affinity toward the Pacers or the fans. Jack clearly liked the people he left behind, including the coach he always fought with. He had to go out of his way to find Rick at the other end of the court after everyone was clearing out.

                            I'm not trying to be "Jack is the greatest", but this "Jack is cancer" thing is just over the top. He was emotional and childish and not the best solution for SG. He was also being paid like an average guy, well below the elite SGs. I think he's around 20th in non-rookie SG contracts, maybe lower. Quis is getting Jackson money. How's that been going? More or less helpful with his 0 mpg?

                            And the beat goes on.

                            Comment

                            • #44
                              Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                              People exaggerated the problems Jack caused which created an overkill solution to the issue. Not to mention the ridiculous rush and timing of the solution. Treatments often must wait until the body is ready to handle them, you can't just jump on some chemo blindly without checking for possible complications, it might KILL you rather than just cause some pain.
                              Rush? Trading Jackson was 2yrs too late for some of us, and you're calling it rushed?

                              He had absolutely zero respect for Rick. Opinions aside about RC, but when a player completely disrespects their "boss" time and time again, either with words or actions, one needs to go. Too bad that the coach was picked as the one who needed to stay.

                              He caused bench problems and he caused legal problems. If the cancer has taken over an entire limb, you cut it off. Calling him the "head" of our body is an exaggeration.
                              “Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Re: Pacers vs Pistons postgame thread

                                Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                                You don't treat brain cancer with a guillotine though. Plus Jackson did many positives for the team, easily as much as the negatives, especially considering his near MLE salary. Cancer doesn't actually help your body.

                                People exaggerated the problems Jack caused which created an overkill solution to the issue. Not to mention the ridiculous rush and timing of the solution. Treatments often must wait until the body is ready to handle them, you can't just jump on some chemo blindly without checking for possible complications, it might KILL you rather than just cause some pain.

                                Good news, cancer's gone. Bad news, you're dead.


                                Plus didn't many of us mention at the party that we thought that the trade was pushed forward more by HARRINGTON'S attitude? Remember that Rick benched him to start the 2nd half of a game. How long after that did the trade occur? A lot closer to that than to Jack's Rio situation. Jack got benched and 5 games later was returned to the starting lineup, they considered playing without him and decided against it. And they didn't trade him a week after that either.

                                Plus the "cancer" was the guy hugging Rick after the GS game. Al and Saras were long gone and showed no real affinity toward the Pacers or the fans. Jack clearly liked the people he left behind, including the coach he always fought with. He had to go out of his way to find Rick at the other end of the court after everyone was clearing out.

                                I'm not trying to be "Jack is the greatest", but this "Jack is cancer" thing is just over the top. He was emotional and childish and not the best solution for SG. He was also being paid like an average guy, well below the elite SGs. I think he's around 20th in non-rookie SG contracts, maybe lower. Quis is getting Jackson money. How's that been going? More or less helpful with his 0 mpg?

                                The whole Jack scenario was a complete mess. Whether people will admit it or not, there is validity to the argument Seth presents here. Just as there is validity regarding the "cancer" argument. I'm still ambivalent about his departure myself. He drove me nuts at time with his on-court antics, never ceased to amaze me in a negative way with is off court foibles, and yet, I miss some of the things he brought to the table that I think the team is missing. However, the reality is he's gone and now we've got the current cluster of a situation to try and remedy.
                                I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                                -Emiliano Zapata

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