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Roy and Rebounding

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  • #16
    Re: Roy and Rebounding

    Originally posted by Millertime3131 View Post
    Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT...
    Let's just focus on rebounding for Hibbert....cuz the last sentence in your post is IMHO simply too broad of a very biased opinion against a Player that you clearly do not like that should warrant any type of response.

    Originally posted by Millertime3131 View Post
    Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT...
    You make it seem like Hibbert tries to go after a rebound, PG24 or Lance come swooping in, pushes him aside like he's a ragdoll while grabbing the rebound before he can even get near the ball. There is a reason for a 7'2 Center letting Guards ( like PG24, Lance and GH ) pull down rebounds.....he is out of position to get the rebound because of what he is being told to do by Vogel.....he is told to block out BY DESIGN.

    How do you pull down a rebound if you are out of position because you are blocking out and therefore out of position? As tadscout suggested....just because he is super tall and long....it doesn't mean that even if he is out of position that he will be able to "Inspector Gadget" his arms out to grab the rebound when he is blocking out.

    Do you think that it is a coincidence that PG24 and Lance are Top 1 and 3 at their respective Positions when it comes to Defensive Rebounding? I suspect that part of it is due to their athleticism and length....but I also think that Vogel puts them in the position to be able to pull down those rebounds because of what Hibbert/Mahinmi are asked to do when they are on the floor.

    Does it mean that Hibbert won't be knocked over cuz of his low center of gravity and he lacks the strength to get knocked over ALL THE TIME? Nope....but don't confuse this lack of strength with his knack for being knocked over all the time ( as you say, cuz he's soft ) with his lack of rebounding when it comes to pulling down defensive Rebounds. I'd suspect that if Vogel didn't have him blocking out as much that his rebounding #s would improve....not by leaps and bounds...but something closer to what would be considered acceptable for a Center.
    Last edited by CableKC; 03-12-2014, 05:21 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    • #17
      Re: Roy and Rebounding

      Originally posted by joew8302 View Post
      If you want Roy to crash the offensive boards harder then fine. Be prepared to have him in foul trouble more often and give up more transition buckets. I am not saying you are wrong, but there are areas which will hurt if Roy crashes the offensive glass harder.
      Agreed. Some are looking at this like it is black and white, but it isn't as clear cut as: JUST GET REBOUNDS!!! Basketball is a dynamic sport and there are many variables to consider. I've seen a couple times where people claim I don't care or want to hear about our system, player X should be getting this many of Y no matter what! It just doesn't work that way folks.
      "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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      • #18
        Re: Roy and Rebounding

        Originally posted by tadscout View Post
        He's stupid because of what? Is anything he said wrong?

        Maybe a tad harsh but not stupid. Roy has flaws.

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        • #19
          Re: Roy and Rebounding

          Originally posted by tadscout View Post
          I like analytics but they don't tell the full story, like other team's putting an extra person to block out a player when the ball is in the air.
          Although, to be fair, if you had access to the full SportVU data, you could absolutely calculate this by running some kind of "Percentage of rebounding opportunities with 2 (or 3 or 4) opposing defenders within 3.5 feet". That would give you a solid number to compare to other centers.

          The Pacers are #1 in defensive rebounding %. That's a fact. So I agree that Roy's rebounding isn't a problem. Hard to have a problem when you are #1.

          It is also true that Roy's lack of athleticism does cost him a board or two. D. Jordan gets a ton of boards because he can contest shots, recover, and jump after the board. Roy largely can't.

          It is also worth noting that Roy is in the Top 10 in the NBA in raw contested rebounds per game. I don't agree that Roy has a problem with opposing players snagging rebounds out of his hands. I do agree that he doesn't grab contested rebounds 100% of the time, which frustrates people who believe that people with the height advantage should grab rebounds 100% of the time.

          You can't discuss Roy's rebounding without mentioning all the times Lance steals boards from him. He is the anti-Troy Murphy in this regard.

          Finally, ignoring all other factors, Roy is obviously not a dominant rebounder in the way Howard or Love are. But the guy who stays straight up when LeBron goes straight into his chest isn't "weak" or "soft". The Pacers could use his help on the offensive boards in the absence of a guy like Hansbrough or Foster. But the Pacers are the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA, so that story is a non-starter.
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          • #20
            Re: Roy and Rebounding

            Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
            He's stupid because of what? Is anything he said wrong?
            I'm not calling him stupid (I don't know him) but rather his statement... and it has been countered with plenty of points throughout this thread by multiple people.
            "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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            • #21
              Re: Roy and Rebounding

              Roy doesn't have the natural attributes to be a great rebounder other than his size. It is what it is... he's below average on the defensive boards and above it on the offensive boards.

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              • #22
                Re: Roy and Rebounding

                Originally posted by joew8302 View Post
                If you want Roy to crash the offensive boards harder then fine. Be prepared to have him in foul trouble more often and give up more transition buckets. I am not saying you are wrong, but there are areas which will hurt if Roy crashes the offensive glass harder.
                The Pacers were the best transition D in the league last year despite being in the top five in offensive rebounding. It was a big talking point last season how the Pacers were able to do both. Roy's fouls were also only slightly higher last year. Obviously the changes to the bench unit make the team not exactly like last year, but Roy plays few enough minutes that he ends up playing the vast majority of the minutes with the same starters that he did last year.

                I agree there's a tradeoff. But I think it's been shown that for the Pacers, the rewards are higher than the risk. The Pacers struggle to break down defenses in the halfcourt, and offensive rebounds often lead to great chances.

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                • #23
                  Re: Roy and Rebounding

                  Originally posted by tadscout View Post
                  I'm not calling him stupid (I don't know him) but rather his statement... and it has been countered with plenty of points throughout this thread by multiple people.
                  So because of some other peoples opinions and some math his opinion is stupid? Gotcha.

                  I happen to agree with him. Roy is soft in many ways on the basketball court and rebounding is one of them.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Roy and Rebounding

                    Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
                    So because of some other peoples opinions and some math his opinion is stupid? Gotcha.

                    I happen to agree with him. Roy is soft in many ways on the basketball court and rebounding is one of them.
                    Everyone has the right to an opinion. Just as everyone has the right to disagree with an opinion, so don't make it seem criminal for someone to do so...

                    Obviously we can agree to disagree and leave it there.
                    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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                    • #25
                      Re: Roy and Rebounding

                      Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
                      Roy doesn't have the natural attributes to be a great rebounder other than his size. It is what it is... he's below average on the defensive boards and above it on the offensive boards.
                      Yes, we can take this statement to be true....there's no dispute that his rebounding #s are lower for a Center....much less one that is 7'2".

                      But what we are saying is that he is a below average rebounding in these catagories NOT because of the reasons why MT3131 states when it comes to rebounding:

                      Originally posted by Millertime3131
                      Please God stop making excuses for this 7'2 man... who is the highest paid player on our team.... There is no excuse or reason a 7'2 Center should let guards take rebounds from him, or be boxed out... Fans will be making excuses for Roy his whole career... I have a one word answer for all of you and its : SOFT... Beside lack of talent, lack of being able to jump , lack of strength, lack of instinct, lack of good hands, He is and will always be SOFT
                      But because of what he is asked to do by Vogel....hence BY DESIGN. There's a difference. This isn't a scenario where Vogel tells Hibbert to not Block Out, go after all rebounds at all costs and Hibbert simply isn't able to do to it because he ( as MT3131 suggests ) simply lacks the ability to do so.

                      I don't deny that Hibbert has below average Rebounds for a Center, that he while gets knocked over WAY MORE THAN I am comfortable with and doesn't get outmuscled by stronger/smaller Players.....but MT3131's response simply doesn't take into account what he is asked to do on the court.
                      Last edited by CableKC; 03-12-2014, 05:59 PM.
                      Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Roy and Rebounding

                        Originally posted by Cubs231721 View Post
                        The Pacers were the best transition D in the league last year despite being in the top five in offensive rebounding. It was a big talking point last season how the Pacers were able to do both. Roy's fouls were also only slightly higher last year. Obviously the changes to the bench unit make the team not exactly like last year, but Roy plays few enough minutes that he ends up playing the vast majority of the minutes with the same starters that he did last year.

                        I agree there's a tradeoff. But I think it's been shown that for the Pacers, the rewards are higher than the risk. The Pacers struggle to break down defenses in the halfcourt, and offensive rebounds often lead to great chances.
                        I do not disagree with you one bit on this part.....but unless Vogel specifically adjusted the offense/defense to address this and Hibbert/Mahinmi aren't following through on what they are instructed to do....then isn't this a Coaching issue and not a Hibbert/Mahinmi issue?
                        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Roy and Rebounding

                          Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
                          Roy doesn't have the natural attributes to be a great rebounder other than his size. It is what it is... he's below average on the defensive boards and above it on the offensive boards.
                          Those who tend to be above average offensive rebounders don't tend to be below average defensive rebounders. I don't think anyone will confuse Roy with a great rebounder, but he isn't a bad one either. He just plays in a system that by design puts him in situations where he isn't likely to get as many defensive rebounds as he could. Vogel being a smart cookie realizes this, and thus has Lance and Paul (especially Lance) be more active in getting defensive rebounds. Even an undersized SG like Orlando Johnson was getting an above average amount of D boards on this team. It is by design.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Roy and Rebounding

                            Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
                            Those who tend to be above average offensive rebounders don't tend to be below average defensive rebounders. I don't think anyone will confuse Roy with a great rebounder, but he isn't a bad one either. He just plays in a system that by design puts him in situations where he isn't likely to get as many defensive rebounds as he could. Vogel being a smart cookie realizes this, and thus has Lance and Paul (especially Lance) be more active in getting defensive rebounds. Even an undersized SG like Orlando Johnson was getting an above average amount of D boards on this team. It is by design.
                            A valid point that I can see MT3131 bring up is that IF the System is designed to force the Center to Block out and therefore not be in position to rebound....then why didn't Bynum put up similar "Below Average" rebounding #s if the Center is supposed to Block Out?

                            We saw Bynum put up better rebounding #s ( in less time, no less ).

                            I don't have an answer for that since we have only seen 1 game of Bynum doing this.

                            Someone that is way better at focusing on how the defense is run will have to pay attention more to what Bynum is doing and not doing when he is on the floor. Is he executing the defense the same way that Hibbert/Mahinmi are executing it ( hence following what Vogel is instructing him to do on the defensive end )?
                            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Roy and Rebounding

                              Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                              A valid point that I can see MT3131 bring up is that IF the System is designed to force the Center to Block out and therefore not be in position to rebound....then why didn't Bynum put up similar "Below Average" rebounding #s if the Center is supposed to Block Out?

                              We saw Bynum put up better rebounding #s ( in less time, no less ).

                              I don't have an answer for that since we have only seen 1 game of Bynum doing this.

                              Someone that is way better at focusing on how the defense is run will have to pay attention more to what Bynum is doing and not doing when he is on the floor. Is he executing the defense the same way that Hibbert/Mahinmi are executing it ( hence following what Vogel is instructing him to do on the defensive end )?
                              Seemed to me Bynum was much more focused on rebounding than protecting the rim, which he probably should, since when he tried to protected the rim he got beat more often than actually challenging the shot. Seemed when he failed at protecting the rim he also got way out of position for the rebound (seemed to happen a couple times in the 2nd half) and didn't help out either way. So, it seems the lesson here is our bigs need to do one or the other either protect the rim and count on teammates to rebound, or carve out space and get the rebound themselves (Roy and Ian should do the first b/c of their strengths, and at least from observing last night's game, Bynum should do the 2nd, but this requires our wings to STOP funneling players to the hoop with Bynum in there and force mid range shots and let Bynum clean up the misses).
                              "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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                              • #30
                                Re: Roy and Rebounding

                                Originally posted by tadscout View Post
                                Seemed to me Bynum was much more focused on rebounding than protecting the rim, which he probably should, since when he tried to protected the rim he got beat more often than actually challenging the shot. Seemed when he failed at protecting the rim he also got way out of position for the rebound (seemed to happen a couple times in the 2nd half) and didn't help out either way. So, it seems the lesson here is our bigs need to do one or the other either protect the rim and count on teammates to rebound, or carve out space and get the rebound themselves (Roy and Ian should do the first b/c of their strengths, and at least from observing last night's game, Bynum should do the 2nd, but this requires our wings to STOP funneling players to the hoop with Bynum in there and force mid range shots and let Bynum clean up the misses).
                                The question then is....what is the role that Vogel wants the Center to fill?

                                Be the guy that does what Hibbert/Mahinmi does ( block out and let the Wingmen pull down the rebound ) or be the guy that does what Bynum did ( get the rebound while not blocking out )?
                                Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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