Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuries

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuries

    Here is an article by Mark Montieth. There is little doubt in my mind that if Bender's knees would have been OK, that Bender would have been a real player in the NBA. Borderline allstar, 20 points per game type of player. I will always believe that.


    Bender ready to move on
    Former Pacers player stops asking 'what if?' about a playing career shortened by injuries
    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    April 23, 2007


    One by one they marched through the neighborhood and converged on his house, intent on removing as many belongings as possible.

    The handsome brown desk in his office. The oversized furniture and the decorative vases, mostly in hues of purple. The plasma television. With any luck, the purple-felt pool table, too.

    Jonathan Bender's Carmel neighbors responded to the flyers he stashed in their mailboxes last week and helped lighten the load of his move. They walked in with cash and checkbooks and walked out with armloads and carloads of bargain-priced goods.

    It's an unfortunate, but in many ways appropriate, way for the former Indiana Pacers forward to leave Indianapolis.

    His career was gradually stripped bare by injuries and disintegrating knees. An athlete worth millions had to settle for a career that returned only pennies on the dollar.

    Bender arrived in 1999 a fresh-faced 19-year-old brimming with promise, a still-growing 6-11 kid with a 39-inch vertical leap, ballhandling skills and an accurate outside shooting touch.

    He turned out to be an apparition. Fans saw him in glimpses, but mostly only read or heard about him.

    Finally giving in to the reality of his knees -- the right one has no cartilage and the left still needs arthroscopic surgery -- he quietly slipped out the Pacers' back door midway through last season. He'll leave the city in much the same fashion once he sells the home that sits across the street from one of another former Pacer, Stephen Jackson, and Colts coach Tony Dungy.

    Bender's house has been on the market for more than a year, enduring a gradual transition much like Bender. He played 78 games in 2001-02, his most productive season. He played 46 the following year. Then 21. Then seven. And, finally, in 2005-06, two.

    He leaves with plenty of regrets over one of the all-time what-might-have-been careers, but no lingering bitterness. He admits, however, there was a time in his final, desperate rehabilitation effort, when he spent the summer of 2005 in Boston with physical therapist Dan Dyrek, that he struggled with the notion of becoming a has-been before his 25th birthday.

    "I depressed myself to death then," he said. "I was about to go psycho. But after a minute it's like, What are you going to do? Keep killing yourself or just let it be?

    "If it's going to happen for you, it's going to happen. If it's not, it's not."
    It did happen sporadically. Bender averaged just 5.6 points in his 237 regular-season NBA games, but between the trips to the inactive list he offered tantalizing and dramatic outbursts.

    Like when he scored 10 points in 13 garbage-time minutes against Cleveland on Dec. 10, 1999, becoming the first high school draftee to reach double figures in his NBA debut. Or when he blocked six shots in 25 minutes against Atlanta on March 17, 2002. Or when he scored 21 points in 29 minutes at Cleveland on April 2, 2003. Or when he scored 15 points in 16 first-half minutes against Sacramento on March 19, 2004. Or when he scored 19 points in 19 minutes in Game 3 of the Pacers' first-round playoff series with Boston in 2004.

    If not for his inexperience and injuries, those performances would have been more the norm. He doesn't like to dwell on what he could have become with healthy knees, however.

    "Oh, man, don't get me to thinking like that," he said.

    "I always think of myself as a great player because of my abilities. Things that were hard for other people came easily out there. I always thought the sky was the limit."

    Bender doesn't believe he could have done anything differently to save his career. His fate was probably sealed before he even got out of high school. A 6-inch growth spurt over a few months put untold stress on his knees, and so did his childhood games in the countryside of Picayune, Miss.
    Like jumping off of houses.

    "All that crazy ripping and running, that's probably a whole 'nother couple of seasons (lost) right there," he said.

    "We didn't have anything to do, so everything we made up was kind of crazy. What kind of pleasure do you get going up on a roof and just jumping off? I don't understand it."

    The Pacers didn't have the opportunity to check out Bender's knees before the draft because they made a deal with Toronto the night before to obtain his rights. But he had showed no hints of problems when he scored 31 points in the McDonald's All-American Game, breaking Michael Jordan's 19-year-old record. Chicago had checked him out thoroughly, and found no issues that he was ever made aware of.

    Bender knows better than to complain. He still gets a paycheck every two weeks to complete the final year of the four-year, $27 million extension he signed after playing 78 games in 2001-02. An insurance policy covers the majority of it.

    He's using that money to initiate charitable works through his foundation and for complex investments. He owns part of an island near the Bahamas as well as commercial property on the main island. He owns a recording facility in New Orleans, Studio 5504. He's financing a middleweight boxer in Houston, Lupe Martinez, who improved to 14-1 with a victory on Saturday.
    "There's a lot to be thankful for," he said.

    Soon he'll be splitting his time between New Orleans and Houston, where the weather is hot and his knees don't hurt as much. He'll continue lifting weights every other day to keep his leg muscles strong and take pressure off his knees. In fact, he looks more like an NBA player now than ever before. He weighs a fat-free 242 pounds, about 40 more than when he was drafted.
    Sure, sometimes he wonders. A year of rest was to be the final stab at rehabilitation, and recent medical advances have made it possible to grow cartilage. But an 82-game NBA season is a different matter, and doctors aren't giving him much reason for hope.

    "I don't want to be a lab rat," he said.

    So his past drifts away, carried out his doors and into other people's homes.
    It's time to move on.

  • #2
    Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

    Yeah I think he would have been a damn good player too. At least he did a couple of smart things with his money. I think he'll attempt a comeback at least once in he next year or two. A basketball player can't just be 242 fat free lbs standing 6'11" and be in his mid-twenties and not have the desire to take another stab at playing again.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

      I don't.

      Had that deer in the headlights look. He was soft. He was kind of a baby.

      He had bad bball IQ.

      I'll grant you that he began to develop a few moves and a midrange before retiring, and, yes, he could have averaged decent points. But making him a major component would have hurt the team, not helped it.
      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

        Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
        He was soft. He was kind of a baby.
        You try walking without any cartilage in your knee. Then try running and jumping and we'll see how you are.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

          Yeah, the stretch under Zeke where he played center against Eddie Curry and the Bulls is where I finally was convinced that it was going to happen for him. He had the deer-in-the-headlights look in 99 and 2000, sure, but by 02 and 03 the whole thing had really clicked for him. We should have put him down low earlier instead of trying him at SG, but what's done is done. Wouldn't have mattered anyways, with those knees.
          This space for rent.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

            If you go back and watch the playoffs in 2004 against the Celtics - Bender played very well, and even in the Heat series he played well and the Heat had no answer for him - they actually started double teaming him a little. Bender struggled against the Pistons in '04, but so did everybody

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

              His overall game wasn't great, but he would've ended up one of the leagues best scorers. He simply was not guardable when he was on his game.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                He would've been a monster. To me the Bender story is a borderline tragedy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                  The only chance he ever had to be an impact player was at PF. We'll never know because of the injuries but IMO he never looked comfortable enough in the post to say he would havebeen a big-time player. My opinion is he might have turned into a decent reserve eventually.

                  It's nice that he could jump and was 7' tall but that doesn't make up for the lack of basketball skills.
                  The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                    Originally posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
                    It's nice that he could jump and was 7' tall but that doesn't make up for the lack of basketball skills.
                    Is shooting not a skill?
                    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                      Wtf is wrong with you people did you not read the article? He has no cartilage in his knee, how was he supposed to improve his game with a knee problem. He came out as a 18 year old and never even got the chance to get much playing time experience to really improve his game because of his injuries.

                      And I agree with UB, JB would have been an amazing player if he never had those bad knees.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                        Originally posted by Jermaniac View Post
                        Wtf is wrong with you people did you not read the article? He has no cartilage in his knee, how was he supposed to improve his game with a knee problem. He came out as a 18 year old and never even got the chance to get much playing time experience to really improve his game because of his injuries.

                        And I agree with UB, JB would have been an amazing player if he never had those bad knees.
                        2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                        2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                        2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                          Originally posted by Kegboy View Post
                          Is shooting not a skill?
                          Only if you can do it in games.

                          And the game of HORSE doesn't count.
                          The poster formerly known as Rimfire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                            Originally posted by Mourning View Post
                            Wow, I agree with jermainiac. ")

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: I will always believe that Bender would have been a real player if not for injuri

                              Originally posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
                              Only if you can do it in games.

                              And the game of HORSE doesn't count.
                              Actually, in brief glimpses he showed the potential to be a dominant scorer. And you'd have to think if he could've played a long stretch without missing games, those brief glimpses would have slowly became a near-every game thing. Who could possibly guard a 7-footer who gets 3-feet in the air on his jumpshot? Not to mention he was going to the line like a madman.

                              A healthy Bender would've became, at minimum, a 20 per game scorer with ease.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X