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After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

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  • #16
    Overall talent and Point Guard play.

    Bird appears to be trying to build a balanced team in the Detroit mode - one without superstar talent. IMO, our overall talent level at the starting positions is nowhere near the quality of the Pistons teams. The Pacers appear to have great depth because there is not a huge drop off from starter to backup. That is not because the bench is great -it's because the starters are mediocre.

    Bird has also continued to neglect the PG position. IMO, a team that lacks a superstar 2guard absolutely needs very good PG play to be truly competitive. The pacers don't have a superstar 2guard and they have very mediocre PGs. That will continue to lead to a mediocre team.

    Basically, IMO, the best way to win is get superstar talent. The second way to win is to have very good PG play. This team has neither.

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    • #17
      Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

      Danny is my biggest concern. I'm not sure who's going to agree with me, but I think Danny is our most important player... And there are 2 reasons for it:

      1. We all know that when Granger scores well we usually win. by "scores well" I mean his ~20 ppg, above (his) average FG, and good all around stats (rebounds, blocks, steals..). There's an easy way to prove it and that's looking at Granger's average numbers during wins and during losses. (I think NBA.com can show it)
      2. If Granger doesn't improve soon, then our team is going to be bad and may even miss the playoffs. And if we miss the playoffs, And Granger plays bad, we're just going to be stuck with his contract. really bad scenario: Bad team, bad contract, bad situation.

      If Danny is going to start hitting his shots, we're going to be the good team we're supposed to be. If he doesn't and continues his "FG% lowered each year" then it's bad news for us

      My other concern, which is kinda related to Danny, is our overall low FG% as a team. Danny takes the most shots and seems to be missing, which greatly affects our FG%, but it seems many of our main guys don't shoot that well also. FG% for them: D.West is 40%, Tyler 35%, Hill 38%. Roy, Paul and Collison have acceptable FG%. I hope that once Danny, West or Tyler start hitting their shots it would open the game for us and allow other guys score easier.
      Originally posted by Piston Prince
      Bobcat fans telling us to cheer up = epic fail season
      "Josh Smith Re-building the city of Detroit one brick at a time"

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      • #18
        Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

        Everything.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

          The offensive gameplan and players.

          The plan is limited, not very challenging to defenses, and cohesive about 35% of the time. These limits are making for few quality shots and a lower FG%.

          This includes the inability to create off of Danny at all. His driving skills are very poor and show no sign or ability to gain an advantage out of them.

          Roy is not getting great post position or working well with it when he does get it much of the time. He does have a few nice, reliable moves and if he is crisp but in control he can get into an opponent for 12-14 points using them. This would then generate the rest of his offense and open up lots of secondary scoring for other players.


          And then the PnR that's being hedged hard. The defenses are showing hard on this, giving massive floor space up, but the Pacers have been unable (especially DC) to take advantage of it. They can't seem to find or setup passing lanes. Returning to the roll man is non-existant and they've resorted to ball rotation back to the other side of the top of the key. But even there teams are starting to read it and that's a juicy pick for a layup the other way when they jump it.


          I've seen some good PnPop or minor inside-out game to the wings where you get a mid jumper for West or Tyler and a decent set of Pick and Slips that look good.

          Ironically though the PnSlip with Lou last night (the dunk) showed how bad things are. They liked the success so much they tried to go right back to it the very next trip, Miami was all over it and it fell apart. It was like the Pacers found gold and predictably went running right back to it, thrilled to have found an attack point.


          When they go into sets I see lots of two man variations and some posting, both high and low, but it looks like it doesn't go much deeper than the initial move which is then quickly swallowed up. Teams seem to recognize this and we've seen lots of hard double teams on the ball because of it.

          They know there will be no 3rd or 4th stage to the play so they just clamp down at stage 1 or 2 and smother it out.



          DC/West needs to be a better PnR (esp DCs part of it). We have to have the Tyler PnPop cranking. We have to have 7-8 possessions in the first half that go cleanly through the low post, even if that's the kick out from the double. We can not let Danny create any of the offense off his own dribble drive. And someone needs to get in Paul's ear about staying focused.

          I feel like Hill has shown a good sense for offensive creation so that might be hopeful.


          But as a team these guys just look like they have no sense of where the points might come from on the next possession, meaning the attack point not the eventual scorer.

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          • #20
            Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

            George vs Danny on creation. Paul is silky at times and has the skills to split guys or even create space on a dribble move. His problem is he gets so casual about stuff and shows no regard for protecting the ball. I think he even got disrupted last night trying to throw an entry pass.

            Danny does not have these moves. He can not throw fakes at average SFs and get them to bite so hard that he'll have the clear path to the lane. He forces it and on some nights gets favorable (maybe questionable) calls that get him to the line. But his FG% is down so much because he's not able to create quality looks for himself.



            I'm not favoring one guy over the other with that, both things are issues. But there is no way IMO that Danny is ever going to be drastically different when it comes to dribble creation at this point. His 4-5 year window of adding things to his game is closed, and regardless older vets don't add nasty quick snap backs that break ankles and create 5 feet of shooting space.

            When Danny drives he's head-down bulldozing.

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            • #21
              Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

              I'd just like to see some faster and more consistent ball movement. When they've moved the ball well, it creates good shots and our postups are more successful because the defense has been moved around.

              When we go to the primary option, which draws multiple defenders, then just force something up, we turning it over or putting up a bad shot.

              The PGs don't seem to where to offense is meant to go. There seems to be a lot of dribbling around but going nowhere, then we get to the first option when the shot clock is down to <10secs.
              Last edited by skyfire; 01-05-2012, 10:17 PM.

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              • #22
                Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                Sorry for a third, but to counter the downer post which was only due to the topic, I do like what Vogel is trying to do and how he's rotating the players in general. I can see how he's trying to get things interacting and that he wants to be an inside-out team with lots of PnR action.

                The roster balance is sound, the concepts are sound. They're just too basic right now and not being executed as well as a team that is relying on balance instead of a superstar needs to be executing them.


                But it CAN WORK with this group. They do have solid diversity of talents.



                Originally posted by skyfire View Post
                I'd just like to see some faster and more consistent ball movement. When they've moved the ball well, it creates good shots and our postups are more successful because we the defense has been moved around.

                When we go to the primary option, which draws multiple defenders, then just force something up, we turning it over or putting up a bad shot.

                The PGs don't seem to where to offense is meant to go. There seems to be a lot of dribbling around but going nowhere, then we get to the first option when the shot clock is down to <10secs.
                I think this is all a by-product of what I'm talking about. I don't think there is much after that initial attack point which is why shots go up and things break down. You can see opportunities that might be taken but the team as a group doesn't seem to anticipate them at this point.

                And has been true even in the wins. This isn't a sour grapes thing. To me the NJ game looked as bad as the Miami game on the offensive end.
                Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-05-2012, 10:18 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                  5 games is too soon to measure this team. My concerns right now are scoring in the paint, and passing.
                  I do think everyone is being a little critical over Danny while West seems to get a free pass. I'm happy to have West and I expect him to improve as he continues to recover but right now he's not exactly the all star pf that he was. Just like Danny West is an x all star, and he makes almost as much money. Danny puts up 15 and 5 boards yet he sucks because he isn't leading this team past the Heat. West puts up 11 and 7 boards and he can do no wrong. Danny's shot isn't falling but I expect that to turn around in the next few games. He'll end up averaging at least 18 ppg. If West could improve to this point we might be real contenders but West has a longer way to go.
                  Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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                  • #24
                    Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    Sorry for a third, but to counter the downer post which was only due to the topic, I do like what Vogel is trying to do and how he's rotating the players in general. I can see how he's trying to get things interacting and that he wants to be an inside-out team with lots of PnR action.

                    The roster balance is sound, the concepts are sound. They're just too basic right now and not being executed as well as a team that is relying on balance instead of a superstar needs to be executing them.


                    But it CAN WORK with this group. They do have solid diversity of talents.

                    I think this is all a by-product of what I'm talking about. I don't think there is much after that initial attack point which is why shots go up and things break down. You can see opportunities that might be taken but the team as a group doesn't seem to anticipate them at this point.

                    And has been true even in the wins. This isn't a sour grapes thing. To me the NJ game looked as bad as the Miami game on the offensive end.
                    So, how do you see the team developing a passing game to facilitate a more complex finish to plays to overcome the opposing defenses? What should we look for to see if this is progressing?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                      Why are people on here so negative all the time?
                      In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                        Originally posted by Ant View Post
                        DWest hasnt been "sucking" imo. He had one pretty rough game, as well as the entire team for that matter sans Hibbert. I wouldnt call his clutch runner vs Toronto or the intangibles he has brought to the team "sucking". Plus the dude is rounding his way into basketball shape and coming off a significant knee injury. Just because you are not a fan of his and have some kind of strange biased against him doesnt mean he has been sucking. He clearly has been a bright spot and brings something this team has desperately needed.
                        Yeah I don't know what he's watching or he feels the need to be bitter given every chance he gets.

                        West has done well for us.
                        In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                          Originally posted by Scot Pollard View Post
                          Why are people on here so negative all the time?
                          Speaking for myself, I'm getting to a point where I'm only happy when the Pacers are playing at a level that typically gets you to the conference finals (and good enough to perhaps win it), and obviously it's been many years since that has been the case. Personally, I'm really starting to starve for it, and I guess I'm getting tired of waiting for it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                            Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                            Speaking for myself, I'm getting to a point where I'm only happy when the Pacers are playing at a level that typically gets you to the conference finals (and good enough to perhaps win it), and obviously it's been many years since that has been the case. Personally, I'm really starting to starve for it, and I guess I'm getting tired of waiting for it.
                            We have a good team and I don't see the worry.

                            Plenty of teams have gotten off to shakey starts, but I wouldn't say 4-2 is bad.

                            I'm still confident we'll reach expectations this season and get the 5th or so seed in the East.
                            In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                              Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
                              So, how do you see the team developing a passing game to facilitate a more complex finish to plays to overcome the opposing defenses? What should we look for to see if this is progressing?
                              Well there is something about the spacing on the PnR hedge for sure, DC often doesn't have a return path. So what you can do if that's wasted space or a wasted unguarded man is use him to go screen for the intended shooter instead.

                              You show PnR and you set up so their "roll" cover defender is going to come off a shooter. Have West (example) come set the screen for Danny or Paul coming to the top. They already do a rotation to come up and take the pass back across the top when DC gets stuck, so why not setup low, come up the lane and let the roll man screen him off instead.

                              Something along those lines. Because the other tradeoff on a double/hedge is that there will be nobody with that man to switch if he sets a screen, and often the recovering player that comes back off the double doesn't realize that he's needed in a switch because it's already happened.


                              But that's just high PnR. I think the wing PnSlips are working more than some of the other stuff because teams are doubling it hard and that bounce pass from the wings is more available past the double.

                              But then the counter there is to rotate as we are slipping and Miami did that last night on Lou. If you know they are going to do it then maybe you can also slash the lane from the weak elbow and give the Slip guy a bounce pass layup option behind the guy coming across to stop the slip.


                              That's the kind of "next layer" I'm getting at. Maybe Vogel just hasn't been able to get them to that awareness or comfort yet, or maybe they haven't cranked up the playbook to that next level.

                              But teams have given up advantages to be aggressive with a lot of doubles or traps and so far the team has been mostly caught off guard with no counter-measures in place.




                              T'Bird would be a lot more helpful here.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

                                Originally posted by Scot Pollard View Post
                                We have a good team and I don't see the worry.

                                Plenty of teams have gotten off to shakey starts, but I wouldn't say 4-2 is bad.

                                I'm still confident we'll reach expectations this season and get the 5th or so seed in the East.
                                I did add the post to counter the negative tone. But the thread exists for a reason, which is the play against Chicago and Miami suggest this team is not ready for the prime-time and not really very dialed in.

                                The NJ game was ugly as can be as was the Detroit loss.


                                Lots of positives to be seen, but overall offensive flow is not one of them.

                                It is the best structured roster in years. I just don't need to rant about it because I don't think many people debate it. Less words but it carries as much positive weight as all the offensive problems discussion does. It's no small thing to have balance, youth and an enviable cap position.

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