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There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

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  • #31
    Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

    Originally posted by avoidingtheclowns View Post
    and eezy - you don't think rick would be offered another head coaching job if he leaves the pacers or the pacers fire him? i can think of a ton of teams that would love to have a coach that good. how about boston or charlotte or seattle? don't you think they'd enjoy a nonlosing season?
    No because the Pacers aren't going to fire him. They're going to "Promote Him" to the front office.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

      so you don't think rick wants to coach?

      EDIT: you don't think if a team called carlisle up and said "Let us know when you're looking for your next job..."


      Atlanta - They'd kill for anyone minimally competent as a coach, but that'd require Hawks to make a reasonable and logical decision. The jury is still out on that happening, not sure Rick would want that job, though they have some promise.
      Boston - If it comes down to Danny Ainge or Doc Rivers, I think Doc would lose out. Ainge brings in part of the Celtic lore to revive the team. Seems possible. More promise than not ESPECIALLY with the draft.
      Charlotte - They seem to like Tar Heels here. But Bickerstaff is wanting out and Bobcats want him out. Larry Brown seems most likely but Carlisle would still be a top candidate. charlotte has a lot of promise

      Chicago - Nope.
      Cleveland - Ferry will go before Brown. Nope.
      Dallas - ummm i'm thinking they're gonna stick with their guy.
      Denver -george karl is probably safe.
      Detroit - nope.
      Golden State - riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
      Houston - another coach of the year candidate. unlikely.
      LAC - the team has quit on dunleavy, the owner likes magette, magette and dunleavy don't get along. dunleavy shouldn't be expected to lose his job this soon but if they felt they had a shot with a perenial playoff coach... not sure if rick would be interested though.
      LAL - if phil leaves, i guess it could happen. i wonder if rick could micromanage kobe. that'd be entertaining to watch at least.
      Memphis - probably not likely, Carlisle is quite Fratello-ish.
      Miami - Could be a coaching change but they'd probably go with SVG or Rothstein (sp?) the guy that took over this year
      Milwaukee - you don't think they'd jump on Rick, he's already guided two other Central Division teams to the playoffs and fantastic seasons. i think the bucks need to hire a proven coach this time around (following the two terrys) and unlike a number of other bad teams, the bucks have a ton of promise
      Minnesota - another Celtic connection. Rick wouldn't go there though...
      New Jersey
      - i don't know how much longer lawrence frank has. i don't think he's been too impressive since his first season. carlisle is a former nets assistant so that could be of appeal especially if they're going to keep kidd

      New York - did thomas really save his job? possibly. could carlisle replace him from a second coaching job, probably not of interest to rick. doubtful.
      NO/OKC - not sure how safe byron's job is... if he misses the playoffs it could be it. rick could get that team back there. i kinda doubt that rick would micromange with a guard like paul.
      Orlando - I'm not sure they're thrilled with Brian Hill back at the helm. Carlisle could finally get this team back in the playoffs and keep them there. Seems likely if they get rid of Hill. They are the 7th seed so that could be enough (if they hold on) to keep Hill's job.
      Philly - probably not likely that they'd get rid of Mo unless it was for Larry moving out of the front office
      Phoenix - highly unlikely.
      Portland - I think they give Nate more time. The team is bad which is an improvement from last year.
      Sacramento - coaching change a high possibility, changing to rick carlisle unlikely
      San Antonio - probably will go to PJ if and when Popp retires.
      Seattle - horrifically underachieving. need a winning season to earn the stadium. seattle shouldn't lose the team. the owners just might do it. plus bob hill is an idiot.
      Toronto - being talked in some circles about Sam Mitchell and coach of the year. probably won't be seeking a new coach this offseason.
      Utah - given the high turnover of head coaches in the Jazz organization, Carlisle wouldn't touch that job...
      Washington - most likely no coaching change



      so that gives rick essentially seven seemingly interested teams as i see it. i would say that of all the teams out there, if rick is fired or leaves the pacers, he'd probably go to milwaukee. you've got bogut who isn't amazing but isn't bad, a couple of talented PGs, Redd, and if he can stay healthy Villanueava isn't bad. seems to have the pieces to be a playoff regular, but needs a proven coach. as i said those others could be likely but Milwaukee would make the most sense.
      This is the darkest timeline.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

        Originally posted by countarfit View Post
        isn't Rick Adelman available? He might actually be able to take the team in "up tempo" pace that they were supposedly doing this year. I though originally that his name was brought up last summer before Carlisle got his extension. Which would look like the Pacers made another mistake ending him if he were to be fired.

        This Pacer team can't play uptempo we just turn the ball over way too much.I think Carlisle has opened the offense up quite a bit where we are actually looking for some easy points but by doing that it has actually made our defense worse. How many times did we not get back on defense after a turnover or a miss? How many time did Kevin Martin beat our whole team down the course. If this is how we play in a uptempo offense we might as well go back to walk it up, throw it inside to JO on every posession and set up our Half court defense. I would rather win 85-81 then lose 125-110.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
          If you mean the poor defense - then I agree completely - if you mean the offense - then I disagree completely.
          I agree with Buck, though I'm not sure how much of the defense is Rick's "fault". Was this ever his thing anyway? He's had elite defensive teams in past seasons, but those teams had players excelled with it. He sure as heck could use better help than Chuck it would seem.

          This team just added to really weak defenders which has only amplified the perimeter defensive needs. Heck Murphy is allowing teams to pressure JO in the post from the weakside even, especially when he goes for the shot block.


          Larry for Rick MIGHT sell tix, but I don't buy it. I don't believe BBall or any other fan that says they would show up just because RC was fired, or Tins traded, or any of that other crap.

          All you'd end up with is the same 10-14K per night with a lame duck coach stuck headed sub-500 with the upcoming schedule (or a worse PG if Tins had been dealt).

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

            Originally posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
            Nah...

            When he eventually realizes he doesn't have the people/ relational/ managerial skills to be the head coach, he'll make an absolutely terrific "#1 assistant" someday.

            Until then, he'll be a maddening underachiever as a HC - you know the brains and work ethic are there, but the players just can't stand him.

            I don't think the players even despise the offense/ system as much as we think they do.
            Underachiever?

            Um, okay. Just how many more wins than the previous coach with the same OR LESS talent are you expected to get to prove yourself nowadays? He's twice come into situations and VASTLY improved the team using the SAME players (ie, not a Larry Brown fake improvement situation).

            Underachieved because we all expected the Pacers to win 61 coming into that season. Underachieved because it was so obvious that the Pistons were due to win the Central and go to the 2nd round and then the ECF the following year.

            2 ECF in his first 5 seasons as a coach with 2 different teams that hadn't done better than a first round loss previously. But Larry Brown, he's great because he guided the Pistons from the ECF to the title and it only took adding a bench guy like Rasheed to do it.


            Maybe Rick doesn't fit this team, I don't know. I just know that he's got scoreboard so badly on every local critic it's not even funny. He's also got scoreboard on several ex-Pacers who complained about him holding them back.

            Get back to me when Ron makes the AS team again or wins DPOY again. AJ, AC, Fred, James, get in line behind him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

              Great response Seth. Jay your comment about Rick being an underachieving coach is laughable but more than that just wrong. It isn't supported by any of the facts.



              Here is a very little blurb from Vescey on the pacers.


              http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/...ter_vecsey.htm

              The Mysterious J's Pacers have given up 349 points in their last three games - and the next two are against the Suns. For want of a less insensitive approach, I'm wondering if management views the team's lack of resistance as an indictment on the players or coach Rick Carlisle.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                I really think Rick just looks burned out, and after what he has had to endure with this team over the last few seasons, that is very understandable. I do think we should move in a different direction this summer, but not because Rick can't coach, it's just time for a new outlook.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                  Originally posted by UB
                  Great response Seth. Jay your comment about Rick being an underachieving coach is laughable but more than that just wrong. It isn't supported by any of the facts.
                  Do we really need to go into the "when classifying over- and under-achieving some people consider the playoffs more important while others consider the overall record more important" conversation again?

                  Jay's not wrong, he views the subject differently than you and Seth.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                    Underachieving in the playoffs.

                    Who gives a rat's *** if he wins the division or has the most regular season games but only has two E.C.F. appearances to show for it.

                    You guys get way too hung up on the regular season, and you're giving him far too much of the credit for keeping this team at 0.500 without acknowledging that he's the one mis-managing the team that leads to the disruptions.

                    Artest wasn't controllable, he's been a problem everywhere he's gone. But SJax's off-court and lockerroom attitude and issues were new with the Pacers, Al Harrington seems to get along with every coach he's had except Rick. Tinsley, according to all of you, has a tremedously negative attitude because of Rick but its arbitrarily Tinsley's fault. Saras was regarded as a leam leader and great competitor but we didn't see any of that. Did he change, or did that have something to do with Rick? Hell, we've heard rumors of how much Bender hated Rick, etc. Fred? AJ even bit the hand that fed him after the playoffs last season.

                    These players may have benefitted some - on the court - from Rick's gameplan and his own bball IQ. But the deep-rooted resentment all of these players have for Rick is the #2 cause for why this team is still stuck around 0.500, underachieving.

                    I believe the following coaches could've gotten more out of this team than Rick:

                    Riley
                    JVG
                    Jackson
                    Byron Scott
                    Frank
                    Karl
                    Popovich
                    Sloan
                    Bill Cowher
                    SVG
                    Jim O'Brien
                    Bo Hill
                    Fratello/ H. Brown

                    and even (brace for it)
                    Isiah Thomas, who made about 1,495,320,569 tactical mistakes but his players believed in him and bought into what he was doing.

                    I haven't formed an opinion on either Nellie or Flip.

                    However, the following alleged "great" coaches would not have done better than Rick:

                    Larry Brown - duh
                    Avery Johnson - who is blessed with tremendous talent but if we switched him and Mike Woodson the Mavs would still be winning and the Hawks would still be losing
                    D'Antoni - wrong system, but he's a fine coach and if we were to hire him and totally revamp the team that would be okay with me. But he wouldn't have won with the teams Rick has had.
                    Doc Rivers - well, Doc Rivers thinks that Doc Rivers is great, so that has to count for something
                    Doug Collins - its a shame he's allowed to provide commentary about coaches

                    If we're going to act like Rick is such a great coach, then he must be compared to other (legit) great coaches in the NBA today (Riley, JVG, Pop, Jackson, Sloan, Karl, D'Antoni) and he's not in that league.

                    Does "he might be in the top ten but he's definitely in the top-half" really make him so "great"?

                    Can anybody - without resorting to W/L records, explain why Rick is considered a better coach than Randy Wittman, for example?
                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                      Jay, back in Rick's two seasons as the Pistons head coach, I stated over and over again that those Pistons teams were the best coached teams in the NBA. How did I judge that? Partly due to the won/loss record, but more than that I watched them play and that is how I decided. When the Pacers played the Pistons in those two years I said the same thing.

                      When Rick took over for Isiah and led the wild and brash Pacers team to 61 wins (with less talent than the previous year)it was amazing and a fantastic coaching job. Remarkable really. If it weren't for the Pistons getting Sheed and some untimely injuries to JO and Jamaal the Pacers would have gotten to the finals and seeing how the Lakers imploded, the Pacers would have beaten the Lakers and won the championship.

                      Then the brawl happened early the next season and everything changed.

                      Jay I guess we just disagree on Rick.

                      But before I end this post I'm not going to let you get away with putting Bob Hill in the list of great coaches. Now come on - you have to be joking - Bob Hill was average at best. I'll never understand why you think he's so good.


                      I don't think for one minute that Rick's teams underachieved in the playoffs. I don't see any evidence of that. He's been a head coach for 6 full seasons. He's been to the ECF twice. ECF semi finals twice and lost in the first round once. If and when Rick leaves as pacers coach. He'll be hired immedietely

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                        Bob Hill has as many 61-win seasons as Rick. 1.



                        Bob Hill looked like a very good coach in SA when he had talent. We spend too much time harping on coaches that don't have talent to work with. Bob Hill did more with the 90-92 Pacers to get them to 0.500 than Rick is doing with this team.

                        I think Wittman is a better coach than Rick, but he was saddled with the Shawn Kemp-era Cavs.

                        I think Rick is a capable NBA coach - he can do things right - many things right - as evidenced a few years ago. But he's not any better or worse than many other NBA coaches that haven't had the luxury of some of the rosters Rick has worked with.

                        And he has a huge, glaring weakness that - at least right now - limits his potential.

                        If we were just talking about whether Rick is a smart coach or not, I'd agree that he's a brilliant tactician. That's why I keep saying he'll make an excellent #1 assistant someday. We agree on that. I just don't think he's a good choice for "the hot seat."
                        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                        And life itself, rushing over me
                        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                          I just hope Rick Carlisle gets fired after this season. JO has been great. GREAT!!! Tonight we lost to Phoenix and I guess it just exposed RC's flaws as a coach. When we got up in the 3rd it was when we were in a free-flowing offense but after the SUNS caught up, we were too dependent on JO and DAntoni outcoached RC, he read our plays like an idiot card. Also, not many have called out Dunleavey and Murphy. They are plain slow and can't play D. They're pathetic. Dunleavy can't even hit a consistent J and RC gives em a lot of minutes. Murphy I can let slide but Dunleavy is just horrible.

                          JO owned Amare tonight. JO is back in the Elite 10 or 15 in the league. We really need a shooter to help JO out. Man! RC sucks. This year whave no more excuses. But with that said, shame on my idol Larry Legend too for being tooooooooooooooooooooooooo stubborn and resigning this guy.
                          http://Twitter.com/dRealSource

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                            He needs to go. . We need a new coach. Pacers have so much talent and they are restricted under carlisle's ROBOTIC system. . .When we let the players play we'll be more successful
                            R.I.P. Bernic Mac & Isaac Hayes

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                              Originally posted by Frank Slade View Post
                              Hmm ..Does everyone remember this before the season started.

                              Carlisle Gets New Title With Extension



                              http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/digest_061005.html

                              I know shortly thereafter Bruno said the release was premature ,but did not dispute the fact. Couldn't he just "transition into a front office role ?
                              I have been saying this since the offseason. I really think Carlisle is going to move up into management and the Pacers will bring in a new coach. Donnie and Bird know that some of the players don't even listen to Rick anymore and that they don't care what he thinks. Of course one of those players has already been shipped out but I don't think they will get rid of the rest of them.
                              I think KP is a Captain Planet fan. He believes that the collective will of five decent starters can outweigh the power of top-level talent. Too bad Herb won't cut the check for their Planeteer rings.

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                              • #45
                                Re: There can't be any more trades now BUT we could...

                                Fire Management first. New management will bring in a new coach anyway.

                                Carlisle's been given crap to work with for the most part. Unless you want to count the psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loony - and in that case you have management which brought in a psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loony which the franchise is still paying for.

                                I do, however, think Carlisle would be a better coach if he had the chance to coach basketball players, not psycho-nutjob-fruitcase-loonies and all their friends.

                                So get management that brings in basketball players.
                                The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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