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Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

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  • #16
    Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Originally posted by D-BONE View Post

    We are not playing together. The guys look frustrated and disjointed as far as team work. No solidarity. This is evident also in the execution. No common purpose or commitment to TEAM defense. Lots of one-one one and quick jumpers on offense. Not enough sharing the ball, ball reversal, purposeful drive and kick, purposeful off-the-ball screening, cutting, etc.

    I really enjoyed your post, especially this part of it. You are right on the money. When this team plays as a TEAM they can play with any team. Even when they start out playing as a TEAM, they will go away from what is getting the job done. It's like they run from success. This to me is extremely frustrating. They don't seem to understand to stay with what is being successful. That includes O'Brien as well as the players. They need to concentrate on what makes them a successful TEAM and continue to do it. Don't stop midstream and start doing something else that isn't accomplishing what has been successful. Just stay with it. Don't start standing around looking & waiting for someone else to do something, make the extras pass, ball reversal, quit relying on the 3 point shot as the only means to win, drive to the basket, play "D" like your life depended on it (for some your career as a Pacer does), and play together as a TEAM. You'll win more games than you lose doing it not to mention even in a loss fans can appreciate and back a TEAM that gives this to them game after game.

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    • #17
      Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

      Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
      (Hand up, waving wildly because I am quite confident that I have the right answer) Oooo! Ooooo! Pick me! Pick me!

      Because everyone knows that rookies and young players cannot be trusted, and that they all learn the game better by watching from the bench as opposed to playing in games?


      Is that you Jimmy??


      Please go to the head of the class!

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

        I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

        There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general, particularly the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

        Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then are yanked after having 2 bad games.

        There is no good reason that Roy should've been reduced to just 12 minutes of play last night. He had zero fouls and was effective on offense. I didn't get to see the entire game, just the fourth quarter but I really don't understand why he was burried on the bench last night.
        Last edited by naptownmenace; 11-25-2009, 01:58 PM.

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        • #19
          Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

          Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post
          I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

          There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general especially the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

          Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then have just 2 "bad" games.
          Rik was replaced in the starting lineup by Greg Dreiling for long periods of time during his third and fourth year.

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          • #20
            Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post


            No, it just came from being defended by TJ Ford and not Watson. Duh.

            LOL, but it's true.

            Two players the Pacers didn't want back from last season, Jack and Rasho were the players who burned them last night for 30+ points. I do miss Jack at the PG. Why couldn't it have been Ford that left!!

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            • #21
              Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

              There is a lot of talk in this thread, and others, about all the things that Murphy, Ford, Foster, et al are doing wrong but what I don't see is anyone complaining about the team's supposed best player, Granger, launching 27 shots while blistering the nets at a 40% rate.

              Why?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                Originally posted by naptownmenace View Post
                I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

                There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general, particularly the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

                Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then are yanked after having 2 bad games.

                There is no good reason that Roy should've been reduced to just 12 minutes of play last night. He had zero fouls and was effective on offense. I didn't get to see the entire game, just the fourth quarter but I really don't understand why he was burried on the bench last night.
                And Rik IMO was horrible against the pick and roll his entire career - go back and watch the 4th quarter of game 7 at Chicago from 1998, the Bulls abandoned their triangle offense and ran pick and roll after pick and roll and they were killing the Pacers with it because Rik was horrible - he often served as the picker and allowed MJ a clear path to the basket. Rik was often taken out late in games for this very reason. Teams went at him all tghe time.

                I mentioned this yesterday, but in order to dictate the other teams lineups, or not to cow tow to the matchups the other team is presenting, you need a lot of more talent than what the pacers currently have. Roy just isn't that good of an offensive low post player yet to cause teams to adjust to us - maybe in a year or two.
                Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-25-2009, 03:20 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                  Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                  \

                  Also, there's Toronto just being darn good on offense and various bad luck scenarios. But, for me, the key subbing problem was Watson for TJ.
                  Would you be surprised if I told you that Toronto has the highest rated offense so far in the season before our game?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                    Originally posted by Peck View Post
                    I understand that players play. I understand that O'Brien does not tell them to just go out there and jack up wild outside shots. I understand he wants them to take good open uncontested shots.

                    But at what point in time does the coach become responsible for player not understanding what a good shot is? When does it fall on him when they just settle for jump shot after jump shot?

                    It would be one thing if he was over on the sidelines yelling to do something different. It would even be another thing if he was taking players out after failing to move the ball or settle for jump shots. But he just stands there, much like when Jamaal did his thing with the Suns a couple of years ago. He just stands there and thinks that because they practice this and he shows them film clips of this that he does not have to do anything other than say "keep doing what your doing" and they will magically transform into the 90's Bulls driving the lanes.

                    I hate talking about O'Brien because what is going to happen is what happens every single time. Somebody is going to come on and call him a lousy coach and want him fired right now. This is overstated and wrong.

                    Only to be outdone by the people who now feel the need to be the O'Brien defenders who really are not defending O'Brien but they are just going after the first set that are over reacting.

                    It will just devolve from there.

                    I will say this. Jim is a middle of the road coach. He is not 100% right and he is not 100% wrong. However there is truth in the fact that he employs an unorthodox offensive system. So it does open him up for criticism.

                    However for the Raptors game, lousy coaching job from even before the tip off for making Roy afraid of his own shadow. To me you don't hide Roy and tell him "you just can't compete against these guys so better to sit over here and watch". You put him out there and if he fails he fails but he can learn from doing, not from being told he can't.
                    Here to me is a problem that I don't know how to answer. Do we hold the coach or the players accountable for what happens on the floor. Point: In the first game of the season, the coach told the players to be careful with their inbounds and outlet passes as the Hawks are well hawks when it comes to those passes- the players fail to listen/execute, and I don't know who to blame here. Do the players have low BBIQ? Are the coaches not stressing things enough? Are the coaches not having an effective punishment/reward system? Have the players tuned out the coach and aren't buying into his message anymore?

                    On the one had we have people criticizing Jimmy because he seems to have a short leash for his rookies- but on the other it seems like they aren't being punished enough for failure to follow and execute game plan, or they aren't being worked hard enough in practice (which i find interesting, since we have full practices at nearly full tilt on gameday).

                    As for the lineup change- it works and it doesn't sometimes. Avery Johnson did it against the Warriors in that fateful playoff series and it backfired terribly. The Spurs failed to do it against the Mavs in the 2006 and 2009 series and they ended up losing both because they refused to have a lineup change and got killed for it. There is no right way to do it.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                      Originally posted by flox View Post
                      Here to me is a problem that I don't know how to answer. Do we hold the coach or the players accountable for what happens on the floor.
                      The NBA has always been and will continue to be a players' league. It's the talent on the roster that will determine how far the team gets.

                      Really, all you have to do is look at Mike D'Antoni and look no further. He was a genius when coaching Nash, Marion, Amare, et al. in their primes. Well, now that he's coaching Al Harrington, David Lee and Nate Robinson, it's just not quite the same.

                      Last night, the Wizards and the 76ers squared off. Both those teams are less than impressive. The 76ers were coached by ex-Wiz and ex-Kings coach Eddie Jordan. The Wiz were coached by ex-Wolves and ex-Pistons coach Flip Saunders.

                      As someone pointed out (on another board), you can't possibly believe either of these two guys are making a real difference for these teams right now in comparison to the guys who proceeded them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                        Originally posted by Tom White View Post
                        There is a lot of talk in this thread, and others, about all the things that Murphy, Ford, Foster, et al are doing wrong but what I don't see is anyone complaining about the team's supposed best player, Granger, launching 27 shots while blistering the nets at a 40% rate.

                        Why?
                        I've seen it mentioned in several other threads - not necessarily specific to this game though. I suspect we give him a bit of a pass for this game because his hot 2nd half 3 pt shooting is what got us back into the game.

                        Anyway, I think we are all aware that Danny is shooting a horrible FG% so far this season. It's bad. I've lamented about it in other threads myself. Personally, I don't throw Danny completely under the bus because I suspect that heel injury has a lot to do with his poor shooting (and lack of drives to the basket) and his so-so defense.

                        I'd like to see him sit awhile, frankly. I don't think it's going to heal just by having him sit out practices.
                        "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

                        "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

                        "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

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                        • #27
                          Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                          Originally posted by flox View Post
                          Would you be surprised if I told you that Toronto has the highest rated offense so far in the season before our game?
                          Not really.

                          I said they were darn good offensively.

                          "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                          • #28
                            Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                            Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                            Not really.

                            I said they were darn good offensively.

                            Not a lot of people are aware of that lol. Just wanted to put that out there incase others that weren't you didn't recognize how good they are.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                              Originally posted by Tom White View Post
                              There is a lot of talk in this thread, and others, about all the things that Murphy, Ford, Foster, et al are doing wrong but what I don't see is anyone complaining about the team's supposed best player, Granger, launching 27 shots while blistering the nets at a 40% rate.

                              Why?
                              It's a good question.

                              I'd say we are subconsciously giving Danny a pass because we sympathize. The coach is not designing and enforcing an offensive scheme with movement that gets players open. Thus, as the shot clock winds down, Danny has to force something up. After a while as the game goes on, he realizes if he has something on the perimeter slightly more open, early in the shot clock, he'll chuck it. Might as well.

                              It's not good, but it's what Danny has to deal with, given the failure of the coach to get the offensive schemes into execution.
                              "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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                              • #30
                                Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

                                I was hoping that someone would extend the discussion about Dannys attitude that Peck pointed out. I noticed this the very first game but i just figured he was having a shatty day or something of the sorts. however, he really has seemed like a zombie. thats a perfect word for it. its really unfortunate.

                                Also, I think you all would feel much better if you didnt expect wonderful things from TJ. Hes seemed to have consistency issues since hes been here. And as far as the comparison to Tinsley...At least hes not Tinsley with a gun!
                                Coach Vogel on the Chicago crowd in game 4 : "I only heard pacers fans. I didn't see any red, I saw Pacers fans I saw yellow and blue, and I heard Pacers chants. That's all I heard the whole game."

                                http://www.cacawebdev.com

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