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The real reason we lost to the Knicks

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  • #16
    Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

    Originally posted by xIndyFan View Post
    i expected josh, but do not think he would have been successful. josh hasn't shown the ability to defend good players in the post. don't know if he just isn't big and strong enough or if it is technique or awareness, but he just can't defend quality post play.
    he goes for the block to much falls for pump fakes.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

      Originally posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
      Also very good for IPad. Especially if you have League Pass as well.
      I actually meant to say IPAD.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

        Fouls alone lost us this game.
        Okay, well then let's take a closer look at that whole "ZERO PT FOR McROBERTS IN THE 2ND HALF" thing...

        First off Turiaf did block two shots by Josh when he first entered the game. Okay, I can see that being an issue. He's in for only 3 minutes and yanked for Dun after the 2nd shot is blocked and NY comes back and scores.

        The problem is that after that Josh proceeded to do the following:

        He re-enters the game at the 8 minute mark of the 2nd, the Pacers are now down by 1. 20 seconds later Posey also comes in pushing Josh to the 5 spot. 2 minutes later Posey has missed 2 3pt shots and they are down 6.

        Josh then gets the OFF REB, off to Collison, miss, Josh gets the OFF REB and...

        FOULED (1) by Amare

        In bounds, 8 seconds later on a pass from Collison Josh is...

        FOULED (2) while making a layup by Chandler

        (Hibby enters for Posey and proceeds to draw his own foul 15 seconds after coming in - Turiaf)

        Couple of possessions later Danny misses a shot and...

        FOULED (3) while going for the offensive board by Amare

        (Hibby draws another foul at the 2 minute mark - Turiaf)

        Around the 1 minute mark on offense Josh is again...

        FOULED (4) by Chandler


        So in 8 minutes the Pacers have drawn 6 total fouls, 4 by Josh and 2 by Hibbert.

        The Knicks had only 3 players with 4 fouls - the 3 that just collected 2 each on Josh and Roy during this 8 minute stretch.

        6 fouls in 8 minutes translates to 36 fouls in a 48 minute game. The Knicks had a total of 17, so they had 11 fouls in the other 40 minutes, twice the fouls in only 5 times the amount of PT.

        The 3 guys that collected those fouls for the Knicks were also their 3 top rebounders and of course Amare was their top scorer too.


        Oh, and for good measure as Josh is shooting the 2nd FT on that 4th foul he drew, out goes Hibby for Posey because, you know, why keep going with what's working.

        Posey helps out by missing the final shot of the period, another 3PA.



        Would I like for Josh to shoot better than 2-5 from the FT line? Of course. But I like 5 FTAs a lot better than the 0 FTAs Posey drew in the 19 minutes he got.



        And having said this rant, do you know what that flurry of mismatch problems that Josh was giving the Knicks meant for his playing time in the 2nd half? ZERO FREAKING MINUTES.

        He and Hibby took it from -6 to 0 in about 6 minutes and actually put a little foul trouble hurt on key Knicks players.


        Just when I thought we'd turned the corner, I should have known.

        2nd half minutes
        Josh = 0
        Tyler = 0
        George = 4 (Danio burned him a bit, but it was still a 1 point game)

        4th quarter minutes
        Foster = 6.5 until he FOULED OUT...that's right, when he got his 5th foul with 6 minutes left JOB just kept on playing him, and when he fould out he brought in Solomon Jones.

        Solo = final 3 minutes even though he only played 6 total in the game.

        Hibbert = 2 minutes at the start, sits from 10 minute mark till 30 second mark

        Posey = all 12 minutes of the 4th quarter...the ENTIRE 4th. You know, when they scored 15 total points.


        Amare finished off the Pacers with 6 straight points going against the monster closer tandem frontline of Posey and Solomon Jones. The first 2 shots were at the rim!

        Again that's your final 3 minutes of a 1pt ball game and you play POSEY AND SOLO as your front line.

        Hibbert was NOT fouled out (he had 2), Josh didn't even play a single minute of the 2nd half and had ZERO fouls, ie he could have been a lot more aggressive than Foster.

        He didn't return to Josh, didn't even look at Tyler. This effort has all the markings of an intentional tank job if I didn't think JOB was addicted to "vets that give him a shot at winning but tend to lose the games anyway".

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        • #19
          Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

          Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
          Dale Davis goes for the block too much, falls for pump fakes.
          Fixed to reflect the first 2 years of Dale's career where the coach just KEPT ON PLAYING HIM ANYWAY TILL HE LEARNED BETTER.

          What were those 6 fouls by Jeff then? Not falling for fakes? Not getting beat. Jeff had 6 fouls in 23 minutes, Solo had 2 fouls in 6 minutes, Josh had 0 fouls in 11 minutes. So I see 2 other bigs getting beat pretty regularly rather than stuff up the middle.


          ALL THE KNICKS SCORING WHILE JOSH WAS ON COURT:

          First stint comes on while Danio at the FT line already

          Felton 18 ft jumper (no assist)

          Shawne Williams 3pt (Douglas assist)

          2nd stint comes on while Amare at the FT line already

          Chandler 2 FTs (Rush foul)

          Gallinari layup (no assist)

          Douglas layup (no assist)

          Amare 1-2 FTs (Rush blocking)

          Shawne Williams 22 ft jumper (no assist)

          Douglas 2-2 FT (Hibbert foul)

          Gallinari 2-2 FT (Granger foul)


          So where is all this low post scoring that Josh couldn't stop today?? 0 fouls, so he didn't go chasing into trouble. Unassisted layups so he didn't fly at one guy only to have it dished behind him.

          I see Amare and Turiaf doing jack squat during these 2 stretches, apart from the 2 Josh shots that Turiaf blocked early.



          OTOH I do see some inside scoring in that final 3 minutes of the game, long after Josh could have left the arena.
          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-02-2011, 10:23 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

            Originally posted by spazzxb View Post
            What ever happened to complaining about the awful or even "awful" officiating?
            No sense in complaining about officating because the organization has no control over that. However, if the coach is making stupid moves and/or the players are just plain that's something to complain about.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

              Can I rant one more much shorter bit, something easy to digest.


              Having shown the PT above, the 12 minutes for Posey, 6.5 for Foster till he fouled out, TJ Ford gets the first 10 minutes of the 4th before coming out and basically this lineup - Ford, Rush, Granger, Posey, Foster - I think it's fair to say that JOB got to have his kind of lineup on the court in the 4th.

              Rush might bug him but he does shoot a pretty good 3, Granger is his 3pt sweetheart and something of a vet now, and of course TJ, Posey and Foster are all past-their-prime vets.

              So other than Dun for Rush (Dun did get 2 minutes early in the 4th) this is the JOB dream.

              The Knicks are infamous for not exactly being a defensive lockdown team with a coach who isn't exactly known for his concerns about that end of the court. Their star Amare couldn't care less about defense.

              So JOB's dream squad goes against a rather poor defensive team and...

              SCORES 15 POINTS


              End of story.

              You showed us what you could do if you played your boys with your style against a favorable defensive opponent and it sucked.


              PS - A GOOD SYSTEM WOULD NOT NEED GRANGER TO STAY HOT FROM 3 IN ORDER TO TO PUT UP POINTS. Enough with the Granger slump. Maybe the slump is due to the types of shots the system helps him get.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                Fixed to reflect the first 2 years of Dale's career where the coach just KEPT ON PLAYING HIM ANYWAY TILL HE LEARNED BETTER.

                What were those 6 fouls by Jeff then? Not falling for fakes? Not getting beat. Jeff had 6 fouls in 23 minutes, Solo had 2 fouls in 6 minutes, Josh had 0 fouls in 11 minutes. So I see 2 other bigs getting beat pretty regularly rather than stuff up the middle.


                ALL THE KNICKS SCORING WHILE JOSH WAS ON COURT:

                First stint comes on while Danio at the FT line already

                Felton 18 ft jumper (no assist)

                Shawne Williams 3pt (Douglas assist)

                2nd stint comes on while Amare at the FT line already

                Chandler 2 FTs (Rush foul)

                Gallinari layup (no assist)

                Douglas layup (no assist)

                Amare 1-2 FTs (Rush blocking)

                Shawne Williams 22 ft jumper (no assist)

                Douglas 2-2 FT (Hibbert foul)

                Gallinari 2-2 FT (Granger foul)


                So where is all this low post scoring that Josh couldn't stop today?? 0 fouls, so he didn't go chasing into trouble. Unassisted layups so he didn't fly at one guy only to have it dished behind him.

                I see Amare and Turiaf doing jack squat during these 2 stretches, apart from the 2 Josh shots that Turiaf blocked early.



                OTOH I do see some inside scoring in that final 3 minutes of the game, long after Josh could have left the arena.
                I didnt say he can't learn better defense but JOB problly isnt patience enghot to play him thur struggles. Which is sad we are rebuliding we need to play the young guys to win and to devolpe them for the future.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                  I left my house at halftime of the game to head downtown in plenty of time to make it to my seat for the kickoff of the Colts game. I recorded the game and planned on watching the second half tonight when I got home.

                  Thanks for saving me the time O'Brien.

                  I listened to the second half on the radio and heard all I needed to hear, to know that watching it, would only turn me from mostly apathetic about this team to entirely apoplectic that this white sideburned joke of a man, still has my absolute dream job.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                    I saw John Starks at the game. When Jim put Posey on Amare, John turned and said "Man, did this dude just did this"?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                      Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                      Can I rant one more much shorter bit, something easy to digest.


                      Having shown the PT above, the 12 minutes for Posey, 6.5 for Foster till he fouled out, TJ Ford gets the first 10 minutes of the 4th before coming out and basically this lineup - Ford, Rush, Granger, Posey, Foster - I think it's fair to say that JOB got to have his kind of lineup on the court in the 4th.

                      Rush might bug him but he does shoot a pretty good 3, Granger is his 3pt sweetheart and something of a vet now, and of course TJ, Posey and Foster are all past-their-prime vets.

                      So other than Dun for Rush (Dun did get 2 minutes early in the 4th) this is the JOB dream.

                      The Knicks are infamous for not exactly being a defensive lockdown team with a coach who isn't exactly known for his concerns about that end of the court. Their star Amare couldn't care less about defense.

                      So JOB's dream squad goes against a rather poor defensive team and...

                      SCORES 15 POINTS


                      End of story.

                      You showed us what you could do if you played your boys with your style against a favorable defensive opponent and it sucked.


                      PS - A GOOD SYSTEM WOULD NOT NEED GRANGER TO STAY HOT FROM 3 IN ORDER TO TO PUT UP POINTS. Enough with the Granger slump. Maybe the slump is due to the types of shots the system helps him get.
                      And DC sat the end of the third, and most of the fourth. And when he came back in, he was played out of position.

                      And he was having his best game as a Pacer, and he was really the only Pacer (besides Josh and Danny in the first half) having a great game.

                      Fantastic coaching righ there.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                        Originally posted by pacer4ever View Post
                        I didnt say he can't learn better defense but JOB problly isnt patience enghot to play him thur struggles. Which is sad we are rebuliding we need to play the young guys to win and to devolpe them for the future.
                        I wasn't mad at you, I was mad at the idea that he gets benched for that or more likely even less quality reasons.

                        And I still get uptight about the anti-pro-Josh crowd who thinks playing him means we think he'll go 17-12-7 and block 4 shots, when in fact we just think he helps make the job of his 4 teammates a little easier to do.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                          I thought Josh had a very good second quarter. He was active offensively, on the boards, and played really solid defense both on-the-ball and on the help side.

                          Clearly good reason to not let him off the bench the entire second half.

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                          • #28
                            Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                            If only he could learn how to be a veteran .

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                              Originally posted by imawhat View Post
                              If only he could learn how to be a veteran .
                              It's a shame he isn't applying himself in practices and in the off-season to learn that.

                              The coach has made it clear that is what he expects. What a slacker.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The real reason we lost to the Knicks

                                I was going to ask if the shot chart Hicks linked to is missing some shots, because it certainly doesn't show this preponderance of Knicks paint scores vs. the nothing-but-long-jumpers disparity everyone is talking about. The summary shows us as having 9 MORE layups than NY, but we only made 2 more than they did.

                                We can blame the offense for not getting FT attempts (though the shot chart info seems to indicate we were trying to get into the middle where fouls are called). We can't blame it for missing almost half of the ones we DID get, nor can we blame it for players who should be dependable (leave out Posey and Dunleavy and Solo because I know they don't count as dependable for most of you) missing shots in the fourth quarter.
                                BillS

                                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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