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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
just give me a 12pack for Murphy and we have a deal.............
just give me a 12pack for Murphy and we have a deal.............
The Rules of Pacers Digest
Hello everyone,
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"
"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?"
In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.
A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.
Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.
Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.
Rule #1
Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:
"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"
"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"
"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"
"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"
"He/she is just delusional"
"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"
"I'm going to take a moment to point and
/ laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*""Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good?
"In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.
We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.
Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.
That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.
A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.
There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.
Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.
In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.
Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.
If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!
All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.
Rule #2
If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.
The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.
The right places to do so are:
A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.
B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.
If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.
Rule #3
If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.
When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:
A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.
B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.
To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!
Rule #4
Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.
Rule #5
When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.
An example:
If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:
http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star
Rule #6
We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.
The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.
Rule #7
Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.
It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).
We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).
However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.
Rule #8
We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.
Rule #9
Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.
Rule #10
We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.
Rule #11
Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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@WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
It seems to me that Bird is telling Cleveland "if you really want Troy, you have to do what I want." I don't think he minds having Troy either if he's looking for more value.
Washington is being less picky with Cleveland when moving Jamison so it now appears that deal will be made rather than ours. This is probably good news for Cleveland since Jamison was their top choice.
I would be happy with Hickson and some draft picks, but if Cleveland says no it's no and we're going to have to find another team to make a deal with. Maybe not with Troy included, but someone else who will reasonably give us value in return for a player we deal.
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
I thought Jamison was the only player Washington wanted to keep.Originally posted by Trophy View Post
My point is..we can get rid of Murphy for cap space at any time...and we have a year to do it..why not try to actually get something of worth now?Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
It appears that Cleveland still has hopes on getting him, but since Bird actually told Cleveland a deal, they're denying the trade. Washington never actually denied any rumors containing Jamison so it leaves Cleveland with the idea to still get him. Cleveland has many other options that can work. They're looking at Igudala.Originally posted by Sookie View Post
I think Bird wants him here and would want him to return if he can be brought back for a cheaper contract. That is if Tyler still isn't the go-to PF yet.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
Personally, I would see the Cavs kind of desperate for a player like Murphy or Jamison. They are in need of a 4 that can stretch the defense. If you have noticed (as of late), Z has been shooting a lot of 3's because the paint is just too 'clogged' for Shaq and Lebron"So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
Technically, you are right....we can get Cap space for Murphy at any time.....either now ( way more easier ) or next season ( much harder ). Realistically, I think that you ( and many others ) aren't seeing the whole picture IF you are looking for clearing enough Cap space to make a Financial and SalaryCap difference in the 2010-2011 season.Originally posted by Sookie View Post
This season...it's quick and simple:
Option 1 ) Trade him ( or any of the other Big 4 contracts ) for an Expiring 2009-2010 Contract and he's off the books in 2010-2011. Done...TPTB doesn't have to worry as much about any LT concerns they have.
Next season.....we have 2 options when it comes to trading Murphy.
Option 2 ) The only REALISTIC AND SUBSTANTIVE way that we can get Cap Space for Murphy is by trading him to a Team with enough SalaryCap space to absorb the majority of his $11 mil 2010-2011 contract. Since the majority of the Teams that can take on Murphy's $11 mil 2010-2011 contract are shopping for Lebron, Bosh, Wade and Amare in Aisle 6 near the Freezer section, what do you think will be the cost for a Team with very valuable CapSpace to take on Murphy's contract? The answer is simple.....a high price.
Option 3 ) If we don't deal with a Team with SalaryCap space....then this means that we ( at the very least ) we have to take back a contract that is valued at 25% less then what Murphy's 2010-2011 contract is....and what's worse is that it is very likely that the contract lasts beyond the 2010-2011 season. Unless there is a Player with a Longer contract that you'd want on the Pacers as part of the future core that is ( more then likely ) overpaid....then we're going to be forced to take on more Salary.
If I am missing any other scenarios where we could move any of the Big 4 that would be considered realistic...let me know.
If there isn't.....for me....option 1 is the only realistic and least costly option. The other options just cost too much for me. I don't think that a 2010-2011 Expiring contract is worth as much as many of you think simply because of the unique 2010-2011 FA market that Teams are saving their SalaryCap space for. That simply leaves dealing with Teams that would be looking for an Expiring contract...or more specifically a Team that is lookign to do a Salary Dump ( literally and proverbially ) on us.
I don't know about you....but I'd much rather start with a clean slate Financially then continually play "kick the SalaryCap can down the road" for another 2 or 3 seasons or be forced to give up assets ( picks, prospects, $$$ and/or future Capspace ) that we can't afford to give up.
BTW....despite many Writers/Bloggers saying that Murphy is drawing the most interest on the Team.....I am beginning to doubt that any Teams that were really serious beyond a cursory call...with the exception being the Cavs that appear to have the most interest. Unless I missed or forgot which Teams are interested in Murphy....doesn't anyone find it odd that the Cavs are the only Team that has been mentioned when it comes to him in trade rumors?Last edited by CableKC; 02-02-2010, 01:34 PM.Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
What about this next year if they don't move Murphy now though.
Let's say you are convinced Amare is fully recovered and deserves a full max contract. Stay with me, I'm trying to make a point. Phoenix does not think he is worth that, by any means, so they sign and trade him (I think he picks up his 17 million player option for next season) and the Pacers trade Murphy and Dunleavy (expirings) and a future #1 pick for him. Phoenix does it for the #1, Pacers do it for a multi time allstar who plays a position of need.
Don't get caught up in whether you agree with the trade components or not. My point is this, can't you keep Murphy and still trade him for a player like Amare or Monte Ellis even who Golden State see as overpriced, but may be ready to rebuild. Even if you have to trade Dun and Murph for Magette and Ellis. I mean my point is those expirings still have tons of value, right.
What about if a team is woefully over the cap next year and just need to shed salary.
What if Rudy Gay is seen as wanting too much, couldn't you do the same deal with Memphis and sweeten it with a pick?
Please don't respond to this by saying oh I'd never spend money on Amare or I'd never give up a 1st round pick. I'm talking concept here, execution can be debated later.
My point is, isn't there scenarios that you can actually use these expirings next year to get instantly better? Isn't that not only an option, but the plan?
Capspace is meaningless to me unless it turns into a player who can at least contribute somewhat equal to his pay.Last edited by Speed; 02-02-2010, 01:46 PM.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
This is exactly what I want, just in case LeBron leaves Cleveland this summer and the Cav's go back to being a crap franchise. Pacers could have the possibility of getting 2 lottery picks in the 2011 draft.Originally posted by Pacerized View Post
:thepacersComment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
Murphy is hardly the last piece to a playoff team, much less a championship one.Originally posted by Gamble1 View Post
Look at the borderline 8th/9th seeds in either conference jockeying for the final playoff spot.
Ask yourself this: Would you say that adding Murphy to any one of those teams all of sudden pushes that team over the top to "secure" that playoff spot or make them the favorite to get it? I just don't get the sense that Troy would all of a sudden be the difference maker. I never have.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
Good point...that wasn't something I'd consider.....players to be used in a S&T.Originally posted by Speed View Post
But I counter that we have at least 2 other Big Expiring contracts ( Dunleavy and Ford ) that we could use to match Salaries ( assuming that Foster decides to retire after this season and we get some Relief there ). Dunleavy+Ford's expiring contracts would allow us to take in between $15.25 mil to $23.81 mil in 2010-2011 Salary. So, yes.....I concede that our Big 3/4 Expiring Contracts COULD have more value. But just like the other scenarios that I painted....I think that there will be a greater cost then "just a single 1st round pick" ( which would be a starting point for any Team looking to do a S&T scenario with top tier FAs ).
Can we afford to give up anything else beyond that if they want more ( which is realistic given what they are giving up )?
I don't mean to come off as "I am right and you are wrong" when it comes to dumping Murphy for SalaryCap relief. IMHO....I just don't think that we can effectively utilize the Expiring contract like we would have in any other year without costing us something.
One more thing....a S&T scenario does not fix any LT concerns that I think the Owners will have going into next season.
3 seasons ago, I'd agree....but in today's Cap consious NBA.....SalaryCap/Financial flexibility means more then just having the option to sign FA....having it allows your Team to be involved in other opportunities that could benefit the Team ( see what the Blazers, Clippers and OKS were able to do over the last couple of seasons with Capspace. ). That is what I am looking for here when it comes to SalaryCap/flexiblity so that we are not limited only to improving the team via Draft or FA. I know it's not optimal....but not having that gets us stuck in the situation we are in now.Originally posted by Speed View PostLast edited by CableKC; 02-02-2010, 02:22 PM.Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
regarding this... i'm wondering whether foster's possibly career-ending injury has removed the urgency to make a luxury tax motivated trade?Originally posted by CableKC View Post
if foster retires for medical reasons, we can remove his salary from the cap one year from the date he last played, which would likely move us under the luxury tax threshold for next season. hence no need to move murph right away.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
Which is exactly why the Cavs are probably reluctant to give up any draft picks beyond this season.Originally posted by Baba O'Riley View PostThis is exactly what I want, just in case LeBron leaves Cleveland this summer and the Cav's go back to being a crap franchise. Pacers could have the possibility of getting 2 lottery picks in the 2011 draft.
At most, it makes sense....this season, the Cavs can end up with a late 1st round pick....next season....they could end up in a worst situation then they are now.Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
i'd say our expiring contracts plus our lottery pick would make a tempting trade package next season, assuming we're willing to move our pick. if not, the expiring contracts won't get a lot back, i think.Originally posted by Speed View Post
on the cap space front, the latest leaks regarding cba negotiations suggest that player contracts are going to be much smaller starting in 2011. so our 2011 cap space might be able to "buy" more than we previously thought. that's assuming suitable players are available and willing to sign here though, which was your point i guess.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
count55 would probably have to confirm.....but I suspect that would have some impact on the 2010-2011 LT implications. Removing Foster from the LT equation for next season would probably pull us back from the "brink of falling off the LT cliff". Admittedly, if the S&T scenario is truly what the Pacers are looking for.....Foster retiring would probably allow for us to pursue that option....but again...it comes to how much a S&T scenario for a Top Tier FA would cost us.Originally posted by wintermute View Post
If a S&T scenario is the way to go...my preference is still to dump at least one of the other Big 3 contracts for a 2009-2010 Expiring Contract ( preferably Murphy's to simply give us some breathign room ) and then go for a S&T scenario while including some combination of Ford+Dunleavy ( while likely giving up 2x1st round picks or 1x1st round pick and a prospect ) . Otherwise....dump one of the Big 3 Contracts and let the rest of them expire.Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.Comment
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Re: Pacers asking too much for Murph
I was also adamat about the same thing. The I started to think "why should we help the Cavs? I understand (or think I do) the luxury tax implactions, but we would be basically giving them the only player in NBA history to be in the top 5 in rebounding and 3pts shooting , for cap space (assuming we would waive Big Z so he can resign with Cleveland)Originally posted by Hicks View Post
If this is all Cleveland is willing to give , then I say Bird is right to decline
I dont want any of Clevelands draft picks we have enough mediocore talent on the roster and any of Clevelands picks will be bottom of first
I say we either get Big Z and JJ Hickson for Murphy or we keep him until next yearSittin on top of the world!Comment
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