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Things we learned from the playoffs

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  • #46
    Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

    Originally posted by KnicksRGarbage View Post
    ...am very frustrated by the comments made by josh after game 5 regarding his ejection...Kind of a slap in the face to Danny if you ask me. I certainly wouldn't be happy if I stuck up for one of my teammates in a situation like this and they say something like Josh did.
    I'm not a McRoberts fan, but I think you're reading way too much into it. If anything, Josh took the high road and Danny just needs to shut up.
    "Reggie Miller is the hardest player to guard." --Kobe Bryant

    "Playing Reggie Miller drives me nuts. It's like chicken-fighting with a woman." --Michael Jordan

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

      The hate for hibbert around here is just crazy. The man is 25 years old.. Not 35. The center position takes longer to fully develop than any other position. Also most act as if good quality centers grow on trees and they most certainly do not.

      Roy is still a young center. Why trade Roy now and have him become dominant on another team? We are going to have to continue to be patient with him, after all patience is what got us to the current bright state of the team right now.
      GO PACERS!!!

      Twitter: @Circlecity3318

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

        Originally posted by Reginald View Post
        I'm not a McRoberts fan, but I think you're reading way too much into it. If anything, Josh took the high road and Danny just needs to shut up.
        Bingo
        GO PACERS!!!

        Twitter: @Circlecity3318

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        • #49
          Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

          Originally posted by Justin Tyme View Post
          Rush is cut from the same bolt of cloth as his brothers. It well could be Brandon will be spoken about in the near future as Kareem in "where are they now?"

          I truly regret the Pacers lost out on the Bobcats trade for Augustin, Henderson, and Nazr for Ford and Rush.
          A lot of people, including myself, already as that question about Brandon.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

            Originally posted by SMosley21 View Post
            A lot of people, including myself, already as that question about Brandon.
            The thing is, Brandon is a better player than his brother, and should at least stick around the league quite a bit longer because he's an above average defender and a more consistent shooter. The problem is, he could be a lot more than this! Sometimes, you just forget he's on the court. If he's fallen out of favor with Vogel, a player's coach, then maybe he just doesn't what it takes.

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

              Great post. Here is what I learned, but not just from the playoffs. From the time that Frank replaced JOB:

              1) I don't think there is hate for Roy as some have mentioned, but I think many people, including me, think that he has issues that you cannot teach to. He is just not the aggressive/assertive guy that we had hoped for. Now, having said this, onto point #2.
              2) I learned that with the right guy at the helm, a team can make an astronomical progression in a very short time. With this in mind, I am more than willing to see what Frank can do with Roy as well as DC, who is also someone that many are not sold on, but hey, it's just his second year.
              3) So, I am high on Frank b/c of the amazing body of work he was able to do in a relatively short time. He deserves a 3 year contract. I would like to see him have Roy and DC work their butts off and hopefully arrange for the Pacers will bring in some folks to work with them this offseason.
              4) I would like to see Danny, DC, Tyler, PG, Roy and Jeff back next season. I thank Mike, TJ, Posey, Rush and Solo for their efforts, but it's time for them to move on. On the fence about AJ, but maybe someone could work with him this summer as well. But..bye-bye Lance! Would love for Josh to stick around, but not willing to pay a high price.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                I learned that veteran experience makes a difference because I was just trying to think who I felt were the players I felt were the most consistent and reliable for the time they played, and I thought of Danny, Jeff, and Dahntay.

                Looking at the whole team, I'll start with point guards and work my way down.

                Darren's ankle injury was a major bummer because I thought he was stepping up to the moment with his offensive game. He fizzled out, but it's impossible to know what % of that was the injury and what % was just him/basketball.

                I'm okay with DC coming back as the starter because I think he has room to grow and I think offensively he can be as potent as Danny Granger. That doesn't mean I'm happy with his court vision and passing, because I'm not. If you can get a better floor general who, overall, is no worse than DC, you probably ought to get him.

                AJ didn't bother me as much as he bothered Peck because when he's in the game with Rush/Jones, Dunleavy, McRoberts, and Foster, his options are basically call a play to try to get Rush or Mike open for a jump shot, pick and roll, or iso. If you lean on Mike and Brandon for your offense in the playoffs you're usually screwed, and a pick and roll with Josh (especially crippled Josh) and Jeff means the majority of the time your best option is to shoot or drive yourself, and after that it's just iso plays. So I understand why he played like a scoring guard. I can live with AJ if he can figure out how to raise his FG%.

                Lance Stephenson: _________________. Next.

                TJ Ford. Professional, nice guy, seems to get along with the others. Good player, to a point, but not someone you want to rely upon. I think he'll find a new team that can put him to some use.

                Shooting guards.

                I'm ready to move on from Dunleavy. I'm ready to move on from Rush. If I had to choose to keep one, it'd easily be Rush because good teams can usually find use for a guy like him to try to shut a single player down while knocking down shots. Dunleavy's been discussed to death, but I think it's obvious that in a playoff atmosphere his skills are less usable than normal.

                Dahntay Jones is another piece that's good to have around in the playoffs. Similar to Rush with regards to it being nice to have a good wing defender, though obviously he can't be counted on to hit shots. Still, in very limited doses, he can create offense for you and bring toughness.

                Paul George is obviously a keeper and the big question is how much better he can be offensively. He'll show flashes of being able to create his own shots from about 15 feet and nail them, but he needs to be able to do that about 5x as much as he currently does it. Other than that, I really, really hope he can learn to not be so limp-wristed when he tries to finish at the rim. Too many soft, soft, way below the rim, layup attempts. In the immortal words of Bill Walton, "THROW IT DOWN!!!". But defensively, I think anyone who paid attention now realizes this kid has 1st team all-defense, perhaps defensive player of the year ability, and we got a nice, extended look at that aspect of his game. He could be a monster defensively.

                Small forwards.

                Danny Granger consistently showed up. I admit I've tuned out on Danny and take him for granted. I became jaded when I realized he was never going to be the consistent two-way player I know/thought he could be, and offensively, I still hate it when he forces the action, but the truth remains that in the playoffs, against a terrific defensive team, he put up very solid numbers and proved we have a very good small forward. Not a superstar by any means, but a borderline all-star like Rip Hamilton was for Detroit. A keeper that can drive you nuts.

                Oh God I just realized I've been brainwashed. I tucked Mike Dunleavy's comments up in the shooting guard section because I've been overexposed to the concept of him as a 2 for too many years here in Indiana. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!

                James Posey has not been here long enough for me to mistakenly list him with the power fowards. I realize that's where he played 99% of the time due to his inability to be effective at the 3 anymore, but that's ultimately what he is: A broken down small forward who can 'technically' be used at the 4 for small ball. He's clearly washed up, and my only interest in him is his now expiring contract of about $7.5 million we might be able to use as trade bait next year.

                Power forwards.

                We have no starter. We have two players who can masquerade as a starter, but it's just an act.

                Josh McRoberts. I've never been in love with Josh as much as his biggest fans, but if your choices are he and Tyler, Josh is the better choice to pair with DC, Danny, and Roy. But that doesn't for a second mean I view him as a starting-quality player. He's interesting, he's selectively very talented (passing, finish, and dribbling), but he still has a lot of flaws that I don't think will ever be upgraded to the level of his current strengths. I also don't like the signs here and there that he's still a bit too immature. That used to be a bigger red flag in his past, and I think he's grown, but it's still there.

                Tyler Hansbrough. I love scrappy, busting-their-asses-to-maximize-their-abilities guys like him, and I love underdogs, which, in this league, he clearly is. I think he's the cliche 'winner' that you always like to have on your team in terms of high-energy/effort, no quit, tough-as-nails, and willing/able to hit big shots. I think he's just 'regular athletic' as opposed to 'under athletic', I think he's more skilled than he's often given credit for, and I think he's proven the skeptics wrong who thought he would never succeed in this league.

                With all of that said, he's still too small, he's not athletic enough to be a starting power forward, he's not offensively reliable, he needs serious work in the passing department as well as with his defensive awareness, and sometimes he thinks he's better than he is, to the detriment of his team.

                Between the two, it's just a matter of who would you rather be our backup 4. I would rather bring Tyler Hansbrough off my bench than Josh McRoberts.

                Centers.

                Roy Hibbert. I haven't given up on him, but I'm certainly not optimistic anymore. I firmly believe we will not do better than Roy at the 5, and I also believe year 3 isn't necessarily a young, developing center's moment of truth. Those are why I think our best bet is to just wait him out, accept you almost certainly won't get a better center any time soon, and just keep trying to get more talented in other ways at other positions. Roy can't handle physical, playoff basketball. I was disappointed in how he regressed at dunking the ball. During the regular season, he was getting better and better at throwing it down in the paint, but it seemed like he really regressed in the post season.

                With Roy, I see a hard-working, skilled, good-intentioned young man with his head on his shoulders. But I also see a guy whose body was barely meant to play basketball (I only say that because if I say a body wasn't meant to play basketball, it'd be someone whose body keeps breaking down). He's still awkward and gets off-balance too easily. I want him to strengthen his legs, but ultimately it's going to come down to improving his balance. Get big men to keep beating him up on the block this summer and drill, drill, drill at getting off his moves and finishing with all of that contact. Learn to find your balance while you're getting bumped around.

                There's still hope for Roy.

                Jeff Foster. Reports of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. Love what he brings, love his legacy with this team, and I'd welcome him back for another couple years, if he can handle it. Nothing else needs to be said, really. We all know what he does, and he's proven that he can still bring it in spades when it matters the most. I hope he retires a Pacer. Maybe Herb will give him an Acura when he retires.

                Solomon Jones. I'm done with him. He has some ability, but not enough ability for me to care about him. Enter the Stanko.

                -----

                So what does that make the blue print look like?

                Well, let's start with what I'm comfortable with. I'm comfortable with our starting shooting guard, our starting small forward, our backup power forward, and our backup center.

                That would be Paul George, Danny Granger, Tyler Hansbrough, and Jeff Foster.

                So I guess the first thing I'll add to the 2011 To Do List is re-sign Jeff Foster.

                Next, who would I not think twice about losing? I'll list them all, but keep in mind I like some of them.

                TJ Ford, AJ Price, Lance Stephenson, Brandon Rush, Mike Dunleavy, James Posey, Josh McRoberts, Solomon Jones.

                So next on the To Do List is to let Ford, Dunleavy, McRoberts, and Jones leave, though explore sign-and-trades just in case.

                Next on the To Do List is explore yet another possible trade of Brandon Rush. If you like what you see, take it.

                AJ Price I can take or leave. He's got a non-guaranteed contract, so I'm totally fine with exploring other possibilities at the backup point guard spot.

                So next on the To Do List is to try to get a new backup point with more experience who is preferably much bigger and stronger than DC. Jarrett Jack comes to mind. If he hadn't totally scared me away with all that BS drama in Detroit, I'd mention Rodney Stuckey as a thought, but I'm very gunshy with anyone from the 2011 Pistons. Otherwise, a veteran like Felton is interesting.

                That leaves the folks who I acknowledge that an upgrade would be preferred, but I doubt we'll do better, and/or I also don't think they're that bad.

                Darren Collison, Dahntay Jones, Roy Hibbert.

                It's hard to decide where to put Dahntay. Ultimately I'm okay with him, though preferably as the 4th or 5th wing.

                Look, I see what you all see with DC and Roy's weaknesses. They both drive me crazy on occasion. But I seriously doubt we do better any time soon, so get used to them. Thankfully, they're not a total lost cause, and they both very well might improve.

                ----

                So let's see:

                Summary of the To Do List (in no particular order)

                * Re-sign Jeff Foster
                * Let Ford, Dunleavy, McRoberts, and Jones walk, explore sign-and-trades if applicable
                * Place Stephenson, Rush, and Posey on the trading block
                * Be open to trading anyone else, but don't lose sleep over it
                * Be looking for a better starting point guard and a better starting center, but don't hold your breath
                * Heavily pursue a superior starting power forward who brings a lot of size, doesn't get pushed around, and the more athletic the better
                * Look for a superior backup point guard with more size, strength, and experience
                * Look for a superior backup shooting guard who can create his own offense
                * Look for a new backup small forward who hopefully plays better defense than Dunleavy
                * Look for Jeff Foster's successor (Stanko?)

                Collison/New bPG or AJ Price
                George/New bSG or Dahntay Jones or Brandon Rush
                Granger/New bSF
                New PF/Hansbrough
                Hibbert/Foster

                That should hopefully be the worst case scenario roster when the season starts.

                If we keep the 15th pick, I'd hope we take a stab at a backup 3 or 5.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                  Why do we have to spend all our cap relief this offseason? Do we want to repeat what Detroit did with Gordon and CharlieV?

                  Sit on most of it.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                    Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                    So I guess the first thing I'll add to the 2011 To Do List is re-sign Jeff Foster.
                    I definitely agree, especially if Mackey Rose gives his blessing!

                    Besides re-signing Jeff, the other matter that should be settled independent of any other is to sign Vogel to a 3 year contract.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                      What I learned, these guys have a lot of heart. They are capable of playing really good defense, and are capable of competing with elite teams. We've known this all year, as they've shown flashes, but to do it for four games in a row..I was proud. It's unfortunate, we really should have been more in this series.

                      Individual players

                      I'm still on DC's side. He didn't have a great playoff series after the ankle turn. And he dribbles around in circles too much, but he also can make some really good plays and is a good scorer. He's not everyone's ideal point guard, but certainly give him another year of development.

                      It's extremely difficult to learn the PG position. Collison had had to learn 4 or 5 different offenses because he's had 4 or 5 different coaches. He was put in a position that had a lot of pressure on him, and for the first half of the season, was in an offense that didn't suit him at all. And in the playoffs, he showed a lot of toughness. From the first game of going right at Rose, to the third game of playing despite his injury. He's a second year guy, he needs to develop. Over the summer he needs to work on controlling his body, controlling the ball, and controlling the team. To me, that's his biggest problem.

                      Roy Hibbert needs to get stronger, mentally and physically. And mentally is a bigger issue. I don't know what Jimmy did to him, because I don't remember him being this soft mentally in college. But he needs to come out of it and get his head on straight. No more getting too high or too low. He also needs to strengthen his core. He gets pushed around too easily.

                      I was really hoping Roy would have a fantastic season. When a guy works as hard as Roy did, you really want him to succeed. And he had some really good moments this season and this series, but overall, I expected him to be better. I still think he has the potential to be better, and I fully expect him to work just as hard this summer. But I don't know that he's got the mentality for being anything more than a solid starter. Hopefully I'm wrong and it's just an age + Jimmy thing.

                      AJ Price, has some how become the new whipping boy. One mistake or one bad shot seemed to equal omgihateajhesux!! Good timing, seeing as Dun unfortunately most likely won't be back. I would have thought people would be more reasonable with their expectations for AJ this season, but whatever. He actually played very well in the playoffs overall. He didn't play like some wanted him too (me included) but he played well.

                      That said, the mentality change from AJ bothers me more than anyone here. I've watched the kid for a long time. Being a court general, is the best part of his game. In fact, it's the reason I'm a fan. Don't get me wrong, he always got his confidence from shooting. But he always had a fantastic balance of knowing when to look for his own shot and when to set others up. On the one hand, given the lineups he was put on the floor with, and that I think Vogel looked at him as a primary scorer, I understand why he played the way he played. But..whether it was simply his role for this season, whether it was scars from O'brien, or whether AJ just made a sudden switch in on court personality for whatever reason, I hope that his focus over the summer (other than no knee injuries kthx) is to get back to playing like a "court general" and getting his mind back into the better balance he once had. (he can also work on defense and a more consistent shot..)

                      Tyler and Josh, to me they go together. My dream scenario is to keep them both, have Josh play backup Center (getting stronger) Tyler play backup PF, and get a PF. The Pacers need a better defender and rebounder up front next to Roy. And Neither Tyler or Josh are ever going to become that. But I adore them both (so I hate the fighting over them..) and hope we keep both. (Not so worried about keeping Tyler..)

                      I'd like them both to work on their midrange shot. As I said, Josh needs to get stronger, Tyler needs to work on passing. But I like what each one brings to the table.

                      Danny Granger really showed up this series. That was what I needed to see from him. He shot well, he defended well. He led the team. He stuck up for Josh and Tyler when Noah went after them. This series made me like Danny Granger more than I ever have. And I never got on the "Blame Danny" train.

                      Is he elite. No, I don't think so. He's not Kobe Lebron, Durant or Wade. But there are only four of those guys. I think he's certainly in the next tier. We just need another guy equal to him in talent..and to wait until Paul George develops.

                      Jeff Foster..If he wants to come back, he should get to come back. He can clearly still contribute. He was great in this series. Which was great to see. If he retires, this is probably a really good way to go.

                      Dahntay is Dahntay and Brandon is Brandon. At this point they are what they are, and if you like them you like them, and if you don't you don't. I personally like them both in a limited role. But we only need one of them.

                      and finally Paul George. Paul George's defense is really spectacular. The way he played Rose was fantastic, and he should get an unlimited amount of praise for it. I just..could go on and on about how excited I am about this kid. Because I honestly, 100% believe, that Paul George has the potential to be one of the best players in this league. He has the offensive and defensive skills, wait until they develop. To me, Paul George is the only guy who is off limits in terms of trading this season. Like, completely off limits unless someone wants to give us an elite talent for him. I'm not typically huge on potential. But my god..

                      And to me, this was not a coming out party for Paul George. This was just a glimpse of him. I think, like Hibbert, he's got the work ethic to really improve. And he seems like a smart kid with a good mentality too. So all signs point to really really good things for him.

                      For over the summer, we need a starting PF more than anything. I also think we need an SG that can score, not for long, because I expect PG to get there..and if we just wanted to roll with PG and quickly develop him that's fine, but I wouldn't mind getting an SG that can score, and letting PG develop a little slower.
                      Last edited by Sookie; 04-27-2011, 01:48 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                        I think it would be a mistake for the Pacers to just sort of go with the flow this summer. Going with the flow means let the free agents contract expire, keep all those currently under contract and add a draft pick, 3 free agents and come back next year and see what happens. I think the core needs to change. If I were in charge I would be looking to keep Tyler, George, and Granger and look to wheel and deal everyone else.

                        This is the most important summer for the Pacers in many many years (wasn't there a year back in the 90's where the Pacers re-signed Reggie, AD and DD. It is as important as that. if the right moves are made this summer the franchise could very well be set for the next 5 or 6 years.

                        I am expecting major changes, because we finally have cap space and some tradeable player that I think we should be willing to trade.
                        Last edited by Unclebuck; 04-27-2011, 02:26 PM.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                          Was Brandon's D that great this series? I'm gonna be honest, I thought it sucked. He was easily the worst defensive wing other than Dunleavy IMO.


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                          • #58
                            Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                            Originally posted by Trader Joe View Post
                            Was Brandon's D that great this series? I'm gonna be honest, I thought it sucked. He was easily the worst defensive wing other than Dunleavy IMO.
                            Vogel must have agreed with you because anytime that Rose came on the floor during games 3 & 4 Brandon came out.

                            I'll say this, his defense was not stellar to be certain. Unlike Paul's which was almost otherwordly considering his is a rookie.


                            Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                            • #59
                              Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                              Rush was getting worked the entire series chasing people around screens. I don't know Brandon is not long for the NBA world at this point I think.


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                              • #60
                                Re: Things we learned from the playoffs

                                Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
                                Why do we have to spend all our cap relief this offseason? Do we want to repeat what Detroit did with Gordon and CharlieV?
                                This is undoubtedly my biggest fear. I sincerely hope and expect that our management is prudent enough not to fall into this trap.

                                Also, I agree 100% with the sentiment that some of you have expressed about resigning Foster. He still has some gas left in the tank and proved (as usual) to be an invaluable team presence and role player off the bench this postseason. That man should retire as a Pacer.

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