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Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

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  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    There are so many things to talk about tonight. Obviously we had a breakout game by a player, a few other very good games from other players and some downright outstanding coaching from both benches.

    But two things stand out the most for me tonight.

    First, people we beat the NBA Champions on their court. I don’t care if they are missing Chandler (he wouldn’t have changed a thing tonight) and I don’t care who else is not there. They are, until we crown a new one, the reigning champions and we just wiped the floor with them.

    Two, & really this is several items all wrapped into one, we won another game which is now our 4th win in a row. This was our 10th win in 15 road games and this was the first win in Dallas since 2004 when Rick Carlisle set on our bench.

    It can no longer be denied, we are a team to be reckoned with. I have no idea how the season will end and I have no idea what the next game will bring but I can tell you this through the first 21 games of the season we truly are one of the best teams in the league and what should scare other teams is this fact, we are only getting better and more confident.

    We win as a team and we lose as a team and tonight’s victory is no different. Paul George is going to get all of the accolades and by all means he certainly deserves them. However he did not play the game by himself, there were other very important players who helped in this victory.

    Also if you are a fan of coaching then this matchup was for you. Both benches were playing chess and the coach with the better younger talent won. Isn’t that nice to say for a change btw?

    Carlisle was brilliant once again, with his rotating zone and offensive play sets. However not to be outdone by him was Frank Vogel and his mixing and matching of players. Notice how Dahntay Jones is now playing a lot at the two? Sure you could say that he was forced into this by Hill being gone but after a few years it is just nice to see a coach who recognizes a matchup issue on the floor and adjust appropriately.

    BTW, I have nothing but respect for several of the Maverick players. For Gods sake Dirk was just out of his mind good and anytime Vince Carter see’s a Pacers logo he is going to attempt to score I don’t care if he is 60 and doing it, he will try. Fun fact, unless things have changed did you know that Vince Carter has scored more career points against the Pacers than any other player? Also for whatever reason, even when he was in Washington Brendon Haywood plays like Patrick Ewing against the Pacers. Tonight he wasn’t as effective as he normally is but again he blocked four shots.

    On the scale of important games and big wins this certainly is one of them. I don’t think it really is more important than beating Chicago in Chicago or L.A. in L.A. but its right up there with them.

    I just wish we had more time to rest before tomorrow’s game but that is just the way the schedule falls, so I’ll take my victory and run with it.

    Let’s do grades for tonight’s Odd Thought’s.

    Paul George: A+++ You wanted it, you got it. This was a breakout game no matter how you look at it. What I like the most about it though? It’s just one game of the previous three that Paul has been aggressive from the opening tip. What I like even more about his game? He is a two way player. For all of the great offense he gave you, and he was pretty much a one man zone buster out there, his defense was just as good. Special kudos to him for blocking that ball and keeping it in play and blocking it away from the basket so another Maverick could not just come along pick it up and score. I know everybody has already talked about his game so anything I have to say is going to be redundant. All I can tell you is that as I sat there watching him hit three after three after three all I could say to myself by the 4th one was damn.

    I’m going to break tradition here and just go ahead and break out the dancing fruit & cheering characters now. This type of game deserves it.




    David West: A I can not tell you how important he was to the team tonight and this game. In the first half he went toe to toe with Dirk and only scored 6 fewer points than he did. David was aggressive and just kept taking it to him over and over and over. He certainly didn’t stop Dirk but Dirk didn’t stop him either. Also and I can’t emphasize this enough. The defense he played on Dirk was outstanding for the most part. He was just out of his mind hitting shots all night. I mean for God’s sake one time I swear he was horizontal falling away from the basket and hit nothing but net. His experience playing often against the Mavericks paid off big tonight.

    Danny Granger: B + Not his best shooting night but there were a couple of big things he did do that may go unnoticed. This may be as much credit to Frank as it was to him but both need to be recognized. In the 4th quarter they moved Danny over to guard Vince Carter quit a bit and he shut him down cold. I am fairly certain Vince didn’t score again. Second he kept working the offensive glass all night, of course some of them were from his own misses so there is that. Also he contributed 5 assists for the game. You could look at him though and see he looked pretty tired most of the game.

    Roy Hibbert: B + Like Danny he did not have a good shooting night but once again big Roy came through on the glass. 14 rebounds to go along with 2 blocked shots is still a good night even if you shoot 3-13 from the floor. He was rushing his shots tonight and a lot of that had to do with the defensive trapping that Carlisle had the Mavericks playing. Also while Roy will only be credited with blocking two shots anybody who watched that game knows he caused 2 other misses due to what we will now refer to as FOR Syndrome (Fear Of Roy). This is now something we are starting to see more often from teams as he has now legitimately become a shot blocking and defensive force in the NBA.

    Darren Collison: A - Not a spectacular game but he was steady, controlled and did not make many errors all night. His shot was dropping and contrary to what Quinn said on the broadcast that three he missed was IMO a perfectly acceptable shot. He was wide open, it was off of a pass so it’s not like he came down and pulled up for a shot and at the end of the day he has become a pretty good three point shooter. So I just think Quinn was wrong there. He also played solid defense all night long.

    So in other words our starters as a starting unit played one heck of a game.

    Dahntay Jones: B Again this guy has become our most consistent bench player much to the chagrin of many of you. His defense is always good if not spectacular and he no longer comes in and forces up bad shots. Tonight he got physical and I am certain that Kevin Love was on the phone complaining to the league office just as soon as he got to his locker room after his game. I love how he did not back down from Haywood.

    On that note was I the only person who was sweating it when Danny came running up the floor? Danny God love him should have played in the 80’s & 90’s because he thrives off of a physical game and like Dahntay backs down from nobody. Also notice Frank sprinting out there to drag Danny away? Probably not the most mature thing to do on Danny’s part but I love his fighting spirit.

    Lance Stephenson: C+ I am not sure why he didn’t play more to be honest with you. I don’t think he played bad at all but I understand that Frank may not have the comfort level with him at point guard. Since Dahntay played a lot at the 2 tonight this cut into Lance’s time. He had a great pass but he was so quick with it and put to much zip into it so the ball went through (I think it was Danny’s hands) out of bounds.

    Ok here is where it is going to start getting harsh. The starters won this game with some help from Dahntay Jones but other than that the bench pretty much stunk.

    Tyler Hansbrough: F I know that might be harsh but this funk has gone on for to long now. He is hesitant on offense, get’s lost on defense and generally is about useless on the floor. One point and two rebounds in almost 20 min. on the floor? I honestly thought Lamar Odom was going to have a breakout game himself tonight but thank God he stunk as well because at first I thought he was just going to torch Tyler. Look I have no idea what is going on here. I mean this is a guy who the first two weeks of the season was as important to our club as any player on the roster but for the better part of three weeks now he has been beyond useless with a good moment or two sprinkled in here or there. If he can’t get this turned around soon the team may seriously have to look at another option, it is that bad.

    A.J. Price: D We saw the return of Bush league Price tonight. At least he didn’t turn the ball over and that is about the only thing saving him from an F. Look A.J. Jim is gone, you are no longer required to be a shooting guard. Yes he got 4 assists but I’m telling you guys right now that the one assist he got by passing it to George in the corner for a three from that blocked shot was a last second bail out by A.J. He was going up for a shot but at the last second decided he was not able to take the 1 on 3 shot he wanted and got the ball to Paul. What bothers me the most is when he doesn’t even look to run any form of offense other than trying to get up the first shot he can. Again I understand it is only his second game so again I’ll give him a break. But right now he is not making any real argument for him to retain any playing time once Hill returns.

    Lou Amundson: C I really can’t give him any higher or any lower as he only played slightly more than 2 min. Again this was Vogel looking at his lineups and deciding that he needed the offense on the floor and Tyler wasn’t going to give it to him so he went mostly with West and Roy. On the other hand I honestly think Frank would have been just as well playing Lou and benching Tyler but that is just me.

    Ok, there is no way I am going to end this post on such a downward note.

    I want to ask everybody a question instead.

    Where does the current starting five of the Pacers rank in terms of starting fives for the Pacers in the NBA?

    The Pacers train keeps on rolling and the Mavericks were tonight’s victim standing on the tracks. Here is to hoping we can help expedite Dwight’s exit from Orlando with a butt stomping on NBA TV.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Who spam refreshes PD just to read Odd-Thoughts? Don't be ashamed ;p.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

      Guilty. Ain't no shame in it.
      Reggie Miller is a God. Period.

      Passion. Pride. Pacers.

      It's ALWAYS Miller Time.
      #31 & Only

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

        Thanks Peck....it's 3am in Indy and Peck has just completed the tome that is the nightly "Odd thoughts"....I don't have to tell you that this is devotion and dedication for the love of the Team.

        I haven't read it yet and I already know that it's going to be an epic read.
        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

          Good post.

          Comparing starting fives. I would say that this starting five is as well balanced offensively as any we have had in a long, long time. We start 5 players that could each score 30 points on any given night. This unit plays more unselfishly than any unit that we have ever had. They seem to understand each other's strengths and certainly appreciate the concept of playing to the "hot hand" better than other teams that we have had.

          It's great to see George get a glimpse of what he can be. I think he had one layup, only because he was a bit winded to get the lift needed to provide the dunk as he went around Dirk on the break. He had another layup where he was grabbed on the break-away and followed it with a make at the line for a three-point play. I believe all his other made shots were either 3-pointers or dunks

          All I have to say is if this is what is going to become his game, then Bird better be prepared with the quan. Because he is going to need plenty of it to keep Hibbert this summer and then George in a couple of years.

          This team is quickly becoming one of my favorite Pacer teams of all-time, and as you know, I have see them all. I would have to say that I would personally have to take exception to anyone calling themselves a Pacer fan who is not able to love this team.

          Even if they don't always accomplish it, they attempt to play the game the way I like to see it played. Hard defense, decent fundamentals and sharing the ball. What more could this old Hoosier want?

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

            Originally posted by Peck View Post
            Tyler Hansbrough: F I know that might be harsh but this funk has gone on for to long now. He is hesitant on offense, get’s lost on defense and generally is about useless on the floor. One point and two rebounds in almost 20 min. on the floor? I honestly thought Lamar Odom was going to have a breakout game himself tonight but thank God he stunk as well because at first I thought he was just going to torch Tyler. Look I have no idea what is going on here. I mean this is a guy who the first two weeks of the season was as important to our club as any player on the roster but for the better part of three weeks now he has been beyond useless with a good moment or two sprinkled in here or there. If he can’t get this turned around soon the team may seriously have to look at another option, it is that bad.
            Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

            Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
            11.67 PPG to 5.8
            9.67 FGA to 5.4
            5 FTA to 2.5

            When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

              Originally posted by Asher99 View Post
              Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

              Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
              11.67 PPG to 5.8
              9.67 FGA to 5.4
              5 FTA to 2.5

              When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.
              I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. I believe that he is being more unselfish with the ball by design. I'll give you that.

              But I believe that although it hurts the second unit when we have mostly second unit players on the floor together, it serves a higher purpose. It also makes him a player that fits in better when on the floor with players mostly from the starting unit.

              The starting unit is an equal opportunity bunch. We can't find ourselves at some point with an injured DWest and a selfish Tyler inserted into the starting unit. It just wouldn't work.

              So, I do believe part of Tyler's funk is being able to recognize his immediate opportunities versus learning to share the ball. Tyler is passing the ball better. What he is no longer doing is simply receiving the ball and immediately becoming the bull in the china shop. And I believe this is by design. It will take him some additional time to get their, but I believe the end result will be a better rounded player.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                Dahntay had been playing out of position the entire season at the backup three. He's a two who can also guard the CP3s, Roses and DWills of the world. Our defense on opposing ones and twos with PG, Hill and DJ is quite formidable, wink wink...Bulls in round two...wink wink...getting ahead of myself...

                I don't know what we can do with this confidence and "respect" other than keep trying to play hard, right and to continue to win and get deeper into the postseason. Our players cannot afford to slouch, but I think we all should take a step back and realize that it's been a long time since this franchise has been in such a remarkably positive position. Let's just bask in it for a minute. Then beat the **** out of the Magic tomorrow!
                You Got The Tony!!!!!!

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                  Originally posted by Asher99 View Post
                  Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

                  Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
                  11.67 PPG to 5.8
                  9.67 FGA to 5.4
                  5 FTA to 2.5

                  When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.
                  What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

                  Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

                  I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

                  But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                    Originally posted by Asher99 View Post
                    Its not a funk, he's doing what he's told. For a guy who's been called out for having tunnel vision there is no way he's taking 1 shot in 20 min on his own accord.

                    Since the fix the offense practice here are his before and after numbers.
                    11.67 PPG to 5.8
                    9.67 FGA to 5.4
                    5 FTA to 2.5

                    When a guys main positive is scoring in bunches and being super aggressive as soon as he gets the ball it doesn't take an expert to know you're going to take him out of the flow of the game by reversing everything he's known and limiting his looks by making him look pass first. As smart as Frank is I don't understand his thinking here, I could see it if he was the starter but having Tyler passing up open looks on the bench is poor coaching especially with no Hill.
                    Or he has no confidence in his shot. Did you see some of his misses the other night? They were absolutely terrible. He hasn't been shooting well, really at all this season. His jumper is off. His confidence has clearly been shaken. Do I think the coaches have encouraged him to pass more? Absolutely. Everyone on our team really needs to pass more. But I think Tyler not being able to hit the broadside of a barn right now has more to do with him passing up shots than anything the coaches have said.

                    He was also getting more minutes earlier in the season, as West wasn't fully conditioned. But West looks more and more comfortable out there, so there are less shots for Tyler to take.

                    Your acting like his 1 shot night is a regular thing. He has taken at least 5 shots in every game this year until tonight. The answer for Tyler isn't more shots, its hitting the ones he takes. He has to return to attacking the basket, drawing fouls. Thats really where he does his damage. He hasn't been aggressive much recently and that doesn't come down to the coaches, it comes down to Tyler.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                      Originally posted by Peck View Post
                      What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

                      Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

                      I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

                      But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.
                      Exactly. He's also been yapping at refs more - he just doesn't seem to be playing with Tyler focused intensity. I am frankly tired of hearing that this is all about coaching. Yes, his taking less shots probably is related to coaching direction. And you know what? That's not necessarily a bad thing. He did have tunnel vision on offense, and it did hurt the team at times. He doesn't shoot a good enough percentage to be shooting every time he gets the ball.

                      I also think teams have adjusted to him. Tyler still doesn't stay planted long enough to set an effective screen and teams know that now and play the pick and roll/pop tight accordingly. He needs to add to his offensive repertoire because all he has is a mid range jumper. That ugly hook in the lane is just a prayer that is sometimes answered. I hope over time Tyler can learn from DWest, because that man mixes up his offensive looks, clearly understands spacing, and can set good screens. I think he's an ideal mentor for Tyler.

                      Going back to the original point, even if I accept that bad coaching is 100% responsible for Tyler's offensive woes there is the fact that his defense and rebounding have also declined. I don't know if he's having head problems or just in a funk or what...but he's off all-around and I don't think it's due to the coaching. Even the few shots he takes without hesitation have mostly been bad misses. I think his confidence is shaken by that as much as anything else.

                      I'm a big Hans fan. The kid has talent and as long as his body cooperates he has too much competitive drive for this to be the end. He'll adjust, eventually. And a Tyler Hansbrough who can score and be aware of when to make the pass will be a better Tyler Hansbrough in the long run.

                      Edit: Super fun game to watch, by the way. I'm so glad I stayed up late to queue up the archive. I've been trying to hold my excitement in check but I think that's over now - our Pacers are for real!
                      Last edited by gummy; 02-04-2012, 04:38 AM.
                      "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

                      "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

                      "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                        Originally posted by Peck View Post
                        What you say may be true, but it has nothing to do with his defense.

                        Tonight he got so lost on a pick and roll that he honestly just stood there trying to find his man who was long gone.

                        I also think something happened when he got hit in the head (or at least I'm always trying to give him that benefit of the doubt anyway.

                        But as others have said, he needed to learn to pass and it may affect his game on the offensive end. But it should not do a thing to his rebounding or defense.
                        He's 100% fine he's just being asked to be somethings he's not.

                        When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.

                        The bench has sucked since the changing the offense practice and its clear as day how bad its screwed Tyler's game as his PER has gone for in the 16's to 12.84 despite shooting it at the same clip. Eventually we are going to need the bench to come up big and Frank has it a mess right now with Tyler wanting to pass and Price jacking up more shots than Tyler and Hill has been getting since the offensive change.

                        If we're wanting a passing big we can get one cheap from the Lakers doghouse cheap but if we are looking for a 6th man to get us 12-16 a night with Hill down then we should take off the handcuffs and unleash the guy Frank said nobody wants to play against. Like I said if he was going to be asked to start and play 36 a night he should no doubt be passing more since the others are better players but on the bench with 20 min to work he needs to be balls out with no restrictions pounding on the other team.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                          Originally posted by Asher99 View Post
                          He's 100% fine he's just being asked to be somethings he's not.

                          When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.

                          The bench has sucked since the changing the offense practice and its clear as day how bad its screwed Tyler's game as his PER has gone for in the 16's to 12.84 despite shooting it at the same clip. Eventually we are going to need the bench to come up big and Frank has it a mess right now with Tyler wanting to pass and Price jacking up more shots than Tyler and Hill has been getting since the offensive change.

                          If we're wanting a passing big we can get one cheap from the Lakers doghouse cheap but if we are looking for a 6th man to get us 12-16 a night with Hill down then we should take off the handcuffs and unleash the guy Frank said nobody wants to play against. Like I said if he was going to be asked to start and play 36 a night he should no doubt be passing more since the others are better players but on the bench with 20 min to work he needs to be balls out with no restrictions pounding on the other team.
                          Really?

                          Since he isn't getting to play on the side he loves so much he is justified in not playing defense?

                          BTW I disagree with your premise on both counts here. I disagree that this is OK first and formost but more importantly I don't believe for a second that Tyler is doing this either.

                          I think Tyler is trying, it's just not working.

                          It could be the change in offensive scheme, I'm not denying that. But I still honestly believe something else is going on as well. You believe the change occured when they practiced prior to going out west and I think it started when he got hit in the head.

                          Call me paranoid but I fear his concussions.


                          Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                            Originally posted by Asher99 View Post

                            When you aren't getting included in the game on the end you live to play its hard to get involved on the defensive end. Cut down Danny or West's touches by nearly half for 10 games and I guarantee you will see the same from them.
                            Peck addressed most of what I wanted to say about this part already, but I just wanted to add:

                            As far as I can tell (having watched Tyler for much of his college career as well as his time in blue and gold), Tyler Hansbrough lives to WIN. Sure, he's a decorated scorer, but he has always done the little things that need doing to get a win. As frustrated as I am sure he is with his individual performance, I bet he is pretty happy with the direction the team is heading.

                            I don't think you've done much in the way of adequately addressing the counterpoints that have been raised, but you are still very much wedded to your one pronged theory. So OK, I'll leave you to it. I've said my piece and have no wish to repeat myself.

                            And also, WE WON! And I want to ride the happy into sleep.
                            "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

                            "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

                            "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

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                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

                              Originally posted by ilive4sports View Post
                              Or he has no confidence in his shot. Did you see some of his misses the other night? They were absolutely terrible. He hasn't been shooting well, really at all this season. His jumper is off. His confidence has clearly been shaken. Do I think the coaches have encouraged him to pass more? Absolutely. Everyone on our team really needs to pass more. But I think Tyler not being able to hit the broadside of a barn right now has more to do with him passing up shots than anything the coaches have said.......
                              That's funny because Hansbrough has never met a shot he didn't like, he could miss 100 in a row and still want to shoot the next 100. He's not ever going to pass up shots by lack of confidence.

                              11.67 PPG to 5.8
                              9.67 FGA to 5.4
                              5 FTA to 2.5

                              When all your stats are cut in half and you're sporting your lowest per-36 FGA of your career over the last 10 games its all on the coaching wanting him to pass more. Taking away his aggression is going to make the problem worse not make it better that's why I called out the change after I picked up on it early on the trip out West.

                              He's a lost cause right now and its not going to get better, the next stage if the eff it stage where he starts gunning and that's even worse than this one, so we have 3 options. We can let him play his game, Bench him and play Lou or trade him for someone else. But one thing is for sure playing him as is isn't a good idea at all because he's borderline useless right now.

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