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Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

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  • #31
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

    Loved the post. As a Danny fan as well I have been judging him pretty tough these past few games. One thing I remember about him is his ability to time shots from behind really well. so far he has proved that instinct is still in tact and is going to be huge on our pick and roll collapses going forward. I also feel he is going to be huge on both units. There are times when lance HAS to rest. Not because he is tired but because he is the reason our 2nd unit is a group of badasses right now. Once he can really dial in his three ball he is going to be so useful. I see him being utilied like in san antonio just camping in the corners as a last resort option. If the lance and scola pick and roll collapses there is danny in the corner. If PG gets cut off driving the lane theres granger in the corner. If hibbert gets a offensive board there is granger in the corner. If he can do this I still see him being above 10ppg. His pass has been on point but his footwork has been horrible. That may come with time but I would rather not see him force the issue. He needs to be what the team needed from orlando johnson at a MUCH higher level.

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    • #32
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

      Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
      JO, as much a whining primadonna as he was, should not be blamed for the brawl or the downfall of that team. Was he a good leader? Nope. But the franchise should have known the brew they were concocting. I know this from experience hiring people. You MUST be a good judge of character and have a solid understanding how bringing in a new employee will affect the organization. The franchise didn't do that and the results are now history. I don't blame Artest or even Jackson...although there is far more blood on their hands than JO. I say that being an Artest fanboy...because I didn't care for JO's whining and soft game.

      Every time JO played Duncan, Garnett, WEbber, and young Sheed he had fits scoring. But boy he could score on Robert Horry and Antoine Walker.

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      • #33
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

        I believe a pair of CP3 and JO in their primes make it further than whatever West/CP3 did together, sure their "team chemistry" was amazing but they didnt do anything.
        @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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        • #34
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

          JO will go down as one of the most overrated Pacers in my book. I will still agree with Jeff Sagarin's computer that spit out the conclusion that he just wasn't that important to the team (yet Walsh went with his gut and maxed him anyway). We never should've maxed him. We never even should've traded for him in my book. But once we did and saw what a non-team player he was, and prima donna as well, we should've moved on quickly. It's no wonder he and Artest could not exist. Keeping both was a supreme mistake. We were a better team without JO than with him. That should've been very telling. We'd been better off to keep BMiller around and let JO walk to poison chemistry on some other team. Then, maybe, we'd had a better chance of keeping Artest under control.

          For a player that clanked shots off the side of the rim at the rate he did, and DEMANDED the offense be run thru him while crying if we tried to do anything else, he doesn't deserve any accolades of Pacer fans. He deserves to be forgotten. Dale Davis and David West are 10 times as important to true team success than a Jermaine O'Neal ever could've been.

          I hope Larry Bird laughs at any suggestions that JO return to the Pacers in any role whatsoever.

          As you can see, I've softened on my opinion of JO over the years.
          Last edited by Bball; 12-24-2013, 03:09 PM.
          Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

          ------

          "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

          -John Wooden

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          • #35
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

            Originally posted by Peck View Post
            This is now Paul & Lance’s team, they are the horses and we will only go as far as they can take us.
            Well stated.

            Problem is, few to none (except Bird) believed this was the case until about a month ago. Even now, many on this board don't buy that idea. A few probably detest it. So there will be tensions and squabbles until it all gets ironed out.

            Your post was a wonderful display of truth, diplomacy, and congeniality. Merry Christmas.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

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            • #36
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

              Originally posted by Bball View Post
              JO will go down as one of the most overrated Pacers in my book. I will still agree with Jeff Sagarin's computer that spit out the conclusion that he just wasn't that important to the team (yet Walsh went with his gut and maxed him anyway). We never should've maxed him. We never even should've traded for him in my book. But once we did and saw what a non-team player he was, and prima donna as well, we should've moved on quickly. It's no wonder he and Artest could not exist. Keeping both was a supreme mistake. We were a better team without JO than with him. That should've been very telling. We'd been better off to keep BMiller around and let JO walk to poison chemistry on some other team. Then, maybe, we'd had a better chance of keeping Artest under control.

              For a player that clanked shots of the side of the rim at the rate he did, and DEMANDED the offense be run thru him while crying if we tried to do anything else, he doesn't deserve any accolades of Pacer fans. He deserves to be forgotten. Dale Davis and David West are 10 times as important to true team success than a Jermaine O'Neal ever could've been.

              I hope Larry Bird laughs at any suggestions that JO return to the Pacers in any role whatsoever.

              As you can see, I've softened on my opinion of JO over the years.
              I wish i could thank this post a hundred times but it will only allow me once...

              I would only add...if we wouldve traded JO we couldve made out like bandits...and added that take to Artest, Miller, Miller, Foster and company and god knows how many titles we couldve won...

              Friggen Walsh...Friggen JO...

              anyway...those times are past and we are once again on the cusp....this time with true leadership...both in the lockerroom and in the front office...
              The Most Common Cause of Stress is Dealing with Idiots

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              • #37
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                Well stated.

                Problem is, few to none (except Bird) believed this was the case until about a month ago. Even now, many on this board don't buy that idea. A few probably detest it. So there will be tensions and squabbles until it all gets ironed out.

                Your post was a wonderful display of truth, diplomacy, and congeniality. Merry Christmas.

                If people have no figured out by now PG, Hibs, and Lance are our big 3 and our keys to winning it all then they never will. Of ccourse there are still Spurs fans who feel Parker is not their best player now, so who knows?

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                • #38
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                  Speaking of fairweather fans and how Indy is allegedly the worst of the lot.... The vaunted hardcore football fans of Kansas City didn't exactly show up in force last Sunday for a matchup with playoff ramifications between themselves and the Colts on a cold day that had seen snow fall the night before. The stadium was cleared of the snow before fans needed to arrive but of course the cold remained. Many open seats could be seen in the stadium from the start. And it wasn't just a late crowd either. And Kansas City is supposed to be known for their rabid football fans.

                  We were talking about it in the Colts' forum and how there would be chattering about soft Indy fans if that had happened here. But for some reason, the perception is that kind of thing doesn't happen in other cities. When the reality is fans supporting their team en masse, thru thick or thin, win or lose, is the exception and not the rule in sports. Indy is no different than most other towns in that regard.
                  Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                  ------

                  "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                  -John Wooden

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                    Originally posted by cinotimz View Post
                    thats your opinion and ur certainly entitled to it....but JO destroyed that team...not Ron...if David West were the PF on that team the outcome wouldve been worlds different...and there wouldve been no brawl etc...Lance has a lot of Artest in him...and we see the result of such when you have great leadership in the Lockerroom versus selfish primadonas....JO was concerned with himself first and foremost and everyone else and the team came second, if at all...u allude to the fact that JO was the real reason behind Brad Miller not being re-signed yet want to put your head in the sand where everything else is concerned? Donnie Walsh and Isiah Thomas were fools for catering to JO and enabling him...so they certainly share some of the responsibility...but make no mistake, thats what and who destroyed those teams and franchise, not Ron or the brawl....
                    Completely disagree with just about everything you've posted here. Did JO throw that cup of water on Artest? Did JO run into the crowd and started bombing on fans? Did JO go to Bird and give an ultimatum of either trade Artest or else? That was ALL Ron, and he knew it. I'll agree that JO was a primadonna...but he wasn't alone in destroying that team. That was a collected effort from everyone. And you say that JO was concerned with himself? You must not of remembered when he was on the cusp of beating Reggie's points in a single game record, but yet, took himself out because he knew how much Reggie meant to the franchise.

                    I also disagree that David West would've made a difference on that squad. If Jeff Foster, a hall-of-fame bound Reggie Miller, Rick Carlisle, nor Larry Bird couldn't keep these guys in line, I doubt one David West would've made a difference. That gang needed to be broken up. It just wasn't gonna work. Too much immaturity and thuggery. And you can tell it took some time before Ron and JO realize what they/we had here by listening to how JO talks about his time here in Indy, and Ron's Laker championship postgame talk about how he regrets giving up on the squad, knowing we had a chance for a championship.
                    Last edited by pogi; 12-24-2013, 05:36 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                      I can appreciate the die hards in Indy feeling vindicated by the success this season. I'm happy for y'all and for myself. But the characterization that anyone in this community was advocating or even entertaining the idea in earnest of the franchise moving is unfair and a bit of a straw man emotionally. There was talk of it a bit ago, and pretty much all of it was founded by non-Pacer fan media entities.

                      Furthermore, the attendance last season was borderline disgraceful. A top-5 team had a bottom-5 attendance. That's not confusing or necessarily even unique; if fact, it's probably pretty typical. But, the team was not proportionately supported last season or the year before. That's all behind us and I think we are all trying to enjoy the present while looking towards the future; but, what happened with the attendance happened. Again, good on theh die hards for sticking through it all. Happy days!
                      You Got The Tony!!!!!!

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                      • #41
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                        I've said it before and I'll say it again; this is the best Pacers team I've ever seen. Hopefully that translates into a in June. Whodathunk that five years ago?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                          Originally posted by AesopRockOn View Post
                          I can appreciate the die hards in Indy feeling vindicated by the success this season. I'm happy for y'all and for myself. But the characterization that anyone in this community was advocating or even entertaining the idea in earnest of the franchise moving is unfair and a bit of a straw man emotionally. There was talk of it a bit ago, and pretty much all of it was founded by non-Pacer fan media entities.

                          Furthermore, the attendance last season was borderline disgraceful. A top-5 team had a bottom-5 attendance. That's not confusing or necessarily even unique; if fact, it's probably pretty typical. But, the team was not proportionately supported last season or the year before. That's all behind us and I think we are all trying to enjoy the present while looking towards the future; but, what happened with the attendance happened. Again, good on theh die hards for sticking through it all. Happy days!
                          Playing the Knicks in the playoffs was a godsend for us. That matchup brought the fans back in full force.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                            The comparison between JO and David West is certainly interesting. I'll pitch in but before I do I have to put a disclaimer first.

                            I wasn't here when JO was an MVP candidate for the Pacers. I wasn't here in those dark brawl times since I was only 14 years old back then and had no connection whatsoever to Indiana or any part of the US (apart from liking the Pacers team in NBA Live '03). Several of you were right there and watched everything happen in front of your own eyes. So, your opinion has way more weight than mine. I just have to clarify that.

                            So, how can I pitch in here? Well, the one thing that I can do is to use the stats that are widely available to everyone. Here we go then:

                            Jermaine O'Neal certainly has the best season between the two. In 04-05, JO averaged 24.3 PPG, 8.8 RPG, 2 BPG, 1.9 APG and 0.6 SPG. Of course, you all know this since most of you were here. David's best seasons were back in 07-08 and 08-09. The two seasons were nearly identical. David averaged 20.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.3 BPG and 0.8 SPG in 07-08 and 21 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 2.3 APG, 0.9 BPG and 0.6 SPG in 08-09.

                            So, it's easy to say that JO had a better peak than West.

                            But what about career-wise? These are their career averages:

                            Jermaine O'Neal: 13.3 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 1.8 BPG, 1.4 APG and 0.5 SPG.

                            David West: 16 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 2.1 APG, 0.8 BPG and 0.8 SPG.

                            Injuries really took a toll in JO's career. He relied on his explosiveness more than David does and that usually means a highest peak but it also means a steeper decline. West really has an old man's game that relies on his strength, IQ and shooting touch and that's why he remains a very effective and dangerous player at age 33. Of course, JO has had a lot more injury issues than David had in his career so that plays a reason as well.

                            I think that it's also important to note that JO played a lot of Center throughout his career. He has played half of his career at C and he's bigger than David which obviously explains his higher Block numbers. David has spent all of his career at PF except from his second season in which he played SF and thus it's natural that his Assist numbers are higher than JO's.
                            Originally posted by IrishPacer
                            Empty vessels make the most noise.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                              Also, Vogel is certainly not a lock for the CotY at this point. I'd actually put Stotts from Portland and Hornacek from Phoenix as the frontrunners. Steve Clifford is still kind of in the conversation for me, though it's tough with a below .500 team. OKC, Miami, and San Antonio all have comparable records to ours. I love Frank too, but we've kind of got blinders on towards the rest of the league sometimes. I can see what opposing fans mean as they have begun to complain about Pacers fans (when we had previously been undiscovered, like lake-water on Mars).
                              You Got The Tony!!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Odd Thoughts: Tis the season

                                Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                                So, it's easy to say that JO had a better peak than West.

                                But what about career-wise? These are their career averages:
                                Nice post. One more comment on JO & West. If I were to have the opportunity of drafting David West or Jermaine O'Neal, it would be an extremely easy decision. I would go with West obviously because of health but also because of character. I am not a JO fan, although at one time I did like him. Problem is, I got to know more about him and his game and I didn't care for it.

                                At the same time, JO wasn't a bad person at all. He was just self-centered and immature. Primadonna is an excellent descriptive word. But he meant well. Also, he was significantly more talented than David West. If he had stayed healthy and matured mentally, he would have been in the HOF. He really was better than any other Pacer considering BOTH his defensive and offensive capabilities. That's why the man was paid 20M/year, something only Paul George is approaching. DWest has been a very, very good NBA player but he's never been MVP material. Take LaMarcus Aldridge. He is a Jermaine O'Neal level talent if not better than JO. Those guys are at the very top of the league in the region of superstars. David has been a very good player but he's just never been at that top level IMO. Still, he would be my pick over JO due to other factors.

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