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End of season grades

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  • #16
    Re: End of season grades

    I guess I'll give my grades.

    Jermaine O'Neal: B
    Jamaal Tinsley: F
    Danny Granger: B
    Mike Dunleavy, Jr.: B
    Troy Murphy: C
    Ike Diogu: C+
    Darrell Armstrong: B+
    Keith McLeod: B
    Orien Greene: C
    Maceo Baston: B-
    David Harrison: F
    Shawne Williams: C+
    Marquis Daniels: C
    Rawle Marshall: C
    Rick Carlisle: C
    Donnie Walsh & Larry Bird: C-----------[/QUOTE]

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: End of season grades

      Originally posted by Los Angeles View Post
      Murphy is a better center than Harrington could ever hope to be.
      Yeah the Warriors record since Al has been starting at the 5 surely helps your post out. Troy Murphy is a slow SF, he isnt a PF or Center. But it wouldnt surprise me if a SF took him down low and blew him up in the paint like everyone else does.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: End of season grades

        We need to stop talking about Al. What is done is done. And in any case, here are my grades:

        JO = A- (would be an A, but he has to be docked for the team's performance)

        everyone else except Harrison = D+

        Harrison = Incomplete (it's not his fault that he is not an NBA player)

        TPTB = F
        Slug 'em Sabres!!!!!
        http://youtube.com/watch?v=cj1SUF4wzu0

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: End of season grades

          Originally posted by ajbry View Post
          Al has done a nice job at center the past several games. Granted, it will never work out long-term (and especially in a half-court offense) but in Nellie's system, it's pretty feasible. He even played some real solid D on Yao a few games back.
          Nate Robinson stuffed Yao.

          Al is a better post defender than Murphy, but that isn't saying much.

          You certainly have a point about Al doing a better job at the 5 in Nellie's system.

          Originally posted by Jermaniac View Post
          Yeah the Warriors record since Al has been starting at the 5 surely helps your post out. Troy Murphy is a slow SF, he isnt a PF or Center. But it wouldnt surprise me if a SF took him down low and blew him up in the paint like everyone else does.
          ajbry was talking about systems which is a good way to dissect the situation.

          Rather than discuss systems, let's talk about our roster situation. If JO is your PF, who would you rather have at center? Al or Murphy? I'll take Murphy every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He's a better compliment to JO at the 5, he helps spread the floor, he's a better passer, he's a better rebounder, he doesn't have a competing ego, he plays the position smarter, he has better hands and feet. On the bad end, he is not a post player (which you don't need if you have JO and he is maybe HALF as athletic as Harrington, which makes him a liability, especially on hte defensive end. Still, he's not as bad as you make him out to be. Don't confuse athleticism with overal ability.

          As for the record, the Warriors remind me a whole lot of the Kings this time last year. Tick Tock. That's all I will say about that.

          And you could have convinced me of something until you claimed that Murphy is a slow small forward. No way that's right, I don't care what the Warriors fans have been telling you, that's just obviously wrong in my opinion.
          “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

          “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: End of season grades

            Originally posted by johnnybegood View Post
            What is it that people have against Troy Murphy? He's not a star, but he's not a bad role player. He hits open shots nad rebounds pretty well.
            He used to rebound pretty well. Now he's pretty terrible all-around, except for hitting the open 3.

            Looking at his game log, from 2/27 to 3/28 he didn't reach double digits in rebounds once, averaging 31 MPG in that span. On 3/28 he had 14 rebounds. Next night he had 1 in 22 min, and the game after that he had 1 in 34 min. His next two games he combined for 8 rebounds total, and then had 0 rebounds in 28 min vs Boston.

            http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...?playerId=1013

            The only thing I have against Murphy is that he is awful for a rotation player. Terrible defense, weak frame = no post up game, horrible to mediocre rebounder.

            Dunleavy is 5x the basketball player Troy Murphy is and I really don't like Dunleavy on this team.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: End of season grades

              If you can stick to the topic at hand, this thread can continue, if not it's gone.

              For those that have their posts deleted, this spiraled out of control, but be advised that as of now, each and everyone of those posts would be worthy of an infraction and if repeated even in intent only, you will receive those.
              So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

              If you've done 6 impossible things today?
              Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: End of season grades

                Originally posted by Cobol Sam View Post
                My grades are going to be based relative to what the player is expected to do for the team.
                So if a certain player is expected to play backup point guard and exceeds at that position he gets a high grade. If the starting point guard doesn't meet expectations he will get a low grade, even though he might have played better than his backup.
                I think this way I'm not grading apples on their ability to be oranges... if you follow me.

                Jermaine O'neal: A - JO missed some games with injury and had to play hurt in others. I expect Jermaine to produce 20 and 10 and block some shots. He certainly did that. I think he had one of his best all around seasons.

                Danny Granger: B - Danny changed roles several times this season and did well overall adjusting to that. I thought he improved in driving to the basket towards the end of the year, and that he showed other progress as well. I expected Danny to do a little better at filling the 2nd scoring option role, which he struggled to do. It was only his second year and so I don't knock him much for that. This team is going to need him to improve.

                Mike Dunleavy: B- - Dun came over to the Pacers and immediately had an impact. He is in the right place at the right time frequently. When he is on the court things seem to run smoother. I didn't expect Mike to be a fantastic shooter, and he wasn't -- so I don't knock him much for that. He needs to be stronger and work on being able to produce consistently. This team will not find its stride when you don't know what to expect out of players. Consistent production is important.

                Troy Murphy: C - When Troy came over to the Pacers we heard a lot about him being a 15 point 10 rebound kind of guy. He was handed a starting spot right away and wasn't able to keep it. In my opinion producing 10 points and 6 rebounds is not meeting expectations. Like Dunleavy you just weren't sure what to expect from Murphy on any given night. All the same criticism applies here. On top of this Murphy didn't meet expectations defensively, at times appearing to move in slow motion. Hit the weight room, rehab the foot... do something.

                Jamaal Tinsley: C- - Let me say that if Tinsley had no caused his two off court distractions this year he grade would be at least a B+ from me. However, in my opinion he really let this team down off the court this year. I'm not going to say he is guilty or not, but I do fault him, absolutely, for not conducting himself more professionally during the season. His on the ball defense was lackluster most of the time this year. On the good side he stayed relatively healthy and was very committed to that. Jamaal had to fill many different roles this year also: scorer, distributer, inmate... and adjusted fairly well each time. I was pleased with JT on the court for the most part, other than some end of the game situations and some defensive issues. Off the court I felt betrayed by him.

                Jeff Foster: B- - Jeff is a hustle man, a rebounder. He lived up to those expectations as usual. However he inability to put the ball in the hole from underneath the basket definitely failed to meet expectations. At this level you have to make put backs, period. In addition I subtracted from his score because I think he on the court demeanor towards the refs can be detrimental at times. In my opinion he is in their ear far too often. Jeff needs to work on the offensive game just a bit. (enough so that we aren't playing 4 on 5)


                Ike Diogu: B+ - I for one was very impressed with what Ike did in limited minutes after coming to the Pacers. Near the end of the season I thought Ike played above expectations for a young big man. I knock him down a bit because he is a black hole with that basketball, and because he needs to improve his consistency and defense.

                Darrell Armstrong: A - DA in every way possible exceeded my expectations. Coming into the season I thought he'd play 8 to 10 minutes and mainly serve as a locker room chemistry builder. Instead he played extended minutes and altered the atmosphere of the game while he was on the floor. The man is approaching 40 and was the most energetic Pacer most nights. One small complaint would be his shot selection -- I thought he shot some questionable 3 pointers during the end of the season.

                Marquis Daniels: I - I don't know how to grade a guy who hardly played. In my opinion the jury is still out. I give him an incomplete.

                Shawne Williams: A - I give Shawne the A because I expected him to either not play, or to play in the D-League. I did not expect him to produce for this team. He has plenty he needs to work on in all aspects of his game, but who would have thought he'd have as many moments as he had this season?

                Rawle Marshall: C - Never found his way into the rotation. He had opportunities early in the season, but never seemed to play under control. I was routing for Rawle to make the team during the preseason, but I have to say I expected him to produce more than he did.

                Orien Greene: B- - Orien played fairly well for a 3rd string point guard. He had some great defensive games. However at this level a point guard should be expected to have SOME kind of shooting touch, and an ability to control the flow of the game. I knocked Orien down a bit for those weaknesses.

                Maceo Baston: I (B-) - Maceo is another guy I don't know how to grade. When he found minutes he performed pretty well. However, he never seemed to find minutes consistently. My thought is its less his fault, and more the nature of the coach and the roster. I give him an incomplete. If you pushed me I guess I'd venture a B- because I didn't really know what to expect of him.

                Keith McLeod: A - I thought this guy was a throw in. Turns out he is a pretty decent backup point guard. He came in an did a good job near the end of the season. I don't fault him for not playing to a starting point guard's abilities. He needs to improve in all areas of the game, but really he is playing at or above his potential as it is.

                David Harrison: F - I've had it with this guy. He was hurt all season, I don't knock him for that. When he gets an opportunity to do something whats he do? He fouls like crazy, gets pissed, flips out, and gets ejected. I flunk this moron. Get rid of him.

                Rick Carlisle: C- - I expect Rick to find a way to get us into the Playoffs in the East. I expect Rick Carlisle's teams to come out more prepared and with a better game plan than what they did this year. Bottom line for me is that Rick didn't get it done this year. I don't want him gone, I do want him back. I don't blame him for the season, but I do hold him accountable. If that makes sense.

                Donnie Walsh\Larry Bird: C- - These guys didn't put the right pieces together, either because they weren't able to or because things didn't work out how they expected. Either way it left Rick with players having to play out of position or take on roles they weren't prepared for. It left players having to relearn roles in the middle of the season. I also take offense to the new media campaign "we need you back" or "you are with us or against us". If this is a business, like they so often remind us, then their product is quality or it isn't. Don't guilt fans into paying for a bad product.


                I realize my grades are super generous for a 35 win team. I expected us to be a .500 team when the season started, and after the trade. Maybe I'm just too nice to the players.. I don't know. I really feel like the problem was we didn't have the right pieces. I thought all the guys played hard for the most part.
                Nice synopsis of the season. I probably would have knocked down some of the grades you gave a little (like Ike and DA), but I understand your grading criteria.

                I hadn't seen Murphy play before he came here. I was surprised by how PASSIVE he played. He has some valuable skills- shooting range, driving ability, decent passer, rebounding- but he just seemed to show no passion at all a lot of times.

                Strange, because from what I had read about him being sort of a "free-spirit", I assumed he'd show some personality on the court. But I didn't notice any of that.

                Also, what you said about Harrison is sad but true. He's got one more chance with this team; hopefully a new coach can help him turn it around.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: End of season grades

                  Jermaine O'Neal: B+
                  Jamaal Tinsley: D+
                  Danny Granger: B
                  Mike Dunleavy, Jr.: B
                  Troy Murphy: C-
                  Ike Diogu: B-
                  Darrell Armstrong: B+
                  Keith McLeod: B+
                  Orien Greene: C
                  Maceo Baston: B+
                  David Harrison: F
                  Shawne Williams: B-
                  Marquis Daniels: C
                  Rawle Marshall: C
                  Rick Carlisle: C
                  Donnie Walsh & Larry Bird: C-

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: End of season grades

                    Jermaine O'Neal:B- Jamaal Tinsley: F Danny Granger: B+
                    Mike Dunleavy, Jr.: A Troy Murphy: C+
                    Ike Diogu: B-
                    Darrell Armstrong: C Keith McLeod: C+ Orien Greene: C
                    Maceo Baston: C David Harrison: F-
                    Shawne Williams: B-
                    Marquis Daniels: C
                    Rawle Marshall: C
                    Rick Carlisle: B
                    Donnie Walsh & Larry Bird: D-

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: End of season grades

                      Satisfactory:
                      Jermaine O'Neal
                      Danny Granger
                      Shawne Williams
                      Darrell Armstrong
                      Keith McLeod

                      Unsatisfactory:
                      Mike Dunleavy
                      Troy Murphy
                      Ike Diogu
                      Orien Greene
                      Maceo Baston
                      Marquis Daniels
                      Rawle Marshall

                      Should be thrown out of school:
                      Jamaal Tinsley
                      David Harrison
                      Rick Carlisle
                      Donnie Walsh
                      Larry Bird

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: End of season grades

                        We pretty much ride together:

                        1-JO: C+
                        2-Tins: F
                        3-DG: C-
                        4-Jeff: C-
                        5-MJD: C-
                        6-Murph: D
                        7-Ike: C
                        8-DA: C+
                        9-McLeod: C-
                        10-Greene: D
                        11-Maceo: C
                        12-DH: F
                        13-SW: C
                        14-Quis: C-
                        15-Rawle: C
                        16-RC: C-
                        17-DW/LB: D
                        The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: End of season grades

                          Originally posted by Elgin56 View Post
                          David Harrison: F-
                          Too much credit. He is probably closer to a G or G+.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: End of season grades

                            Originally posted by ajbry View Post


                            We traded the guy on the left for him. I think that pretty much explains it.
                            Because the guy on the left got in JO's way. Their games were too similar to be productive for the Pacers.
                            .

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: End of season grades

                              Yeah and Murphy has been amazingly productive for the Pacers. JO and Al >> JO and Murphy.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: End of season grades

                                Jermaine O'Neal: B
                                jermaine's defense improved, offense dipped a little. played injured. but i'm docking him for the fact that in the few games missed, the offense ran better. that shouldn't happen with your franchise player

                                Jamaal Tinsley: D+
                                as usual had a few great games that keep him from failing. but so inconsistent and so harmful to the team chemistry.

                                Danny Granger: B- / C+
                                i like danny a lot and it was his second year. but defense needs to improve significantly and he spent a lot of the year camped around the arc not being as aggressive as he should have. still room for improvement but solid

                                Mike Dunleavy, Jr.: C+
                                a few nights he carried the team offensively which isn't good. but towards the end of the year he began averaging near double digits on rebounds and points. i can live with that.

                                Troy Murphy: C-
                                has not been very impressive, at all. can shoot the 3 with some consistency which is nice but ultimately he just doesn't do it for me.

                                Ike Diogu: C+
                                has had a couple of good offensive games. but his passing and defense need SIGNIFICANT work. i hope we bring in a legit big-man coach over the summer (whether head or assistant)

                                Darrell Armstrong: B
                                father time played better than i ever thought he would. takes too many shots but even with ancient and tired legs has a better shot than tinsley and plays with all his heart.

                                Keith McLeod: B-
                                considered an after thought in the trade, he certainly stepped it up the last couple games. i don't necessarily think he's our answer as a starter but i think he proved his worth as a back up.

                                Orien Greene: C
                                never really liked him, not terrible. he's young but i think we've got way too many PGs and he should be the one cut.

                                Jeff Foster: C-
                                had a good beginning of the year but really disappeared in the second half. rebounding (which has always been a foster staple) all but vanished. poor shooter. defense wasn't as good as years past.


                                Maceo Baston: B
                                great bench guy, needs to get more minutes somehow. played with energy and enthusiasm.

                                David Harrison: INC
                                who?

                                Shawne Williams: C
                                i am one of the few people who have not jumped on the shawne bandwagon. i don't think he's better than danny. i think he plays better defense at this point but his offensive game is more raw. he was inconsistent and thats fine for a rookie. i can live with that - and look forward to seeing him progress next season.

                                Marquis Daniels: C+
                                i think his injury proved how valuable he was to this team. a creative scorer which is something our team lacked (spark). still am not sure why he didn't play more at the beginning of the season (featuring JAX only goes so far because he was given opportunities).

                                Rawle Marshall: C
                                the same way that people jumped immediately on the shawne lovewagon, they jumped on the rawle 'i hate this frickin kid' marshall mobile. i don't quite get it, i thought he played fine. first full year in the league. decent defense wasn't any more careless with the ball than shawne. maybe not as great of a shooter but not terrible.

                                Rick Carlisle: C
                                i love rick carlisle. regardless of whether he stays or goes, he is a great coach. i believe this is really the first season where he should get some of the blame. he was given a team that was horrifically under-talented. misfitting parts, egos, attitudes and agendas. but one way you show your worth as a coach is by coaching teams to be better than what they should be doing. i believe rick did this the last few seasons (year of the brawl, injury fest 05-06) but this season it didn't happen. i think its ridiculous that rick would be fired for ONE bad season if the management stays. changing the coach is a cheap move designed to fire up and reenergize a fan base. i hope TPTB are above that and stick their necks out for rick for giving him such a crappy team to work with. as i said i love rick but i do think he deserves some genuine criticism for his performance. but players are allowed to have off-years, give a coach the same courtesy. i say give him another year and if things haven't significantly improved by next february (barring episodes like the palace or the like where it cant be a coaching problem) then its more than fair to cut ties. but rick has put up with more than coaches like pop or avery have ever had to put up with. i think if bird had the guts to stand with ronron on sports illustrated carlisle deserves the same courtesy.

                                Donnie Walsh & Larry Bird: C-
                                pulled off a great deal with peja (although if people say "well danny just fell into their laps" you can also say "the hornets were dumb enough to...") but should have made a better deal with GSW - im sure they could have with harrington as part of the deal. and no deadline moves? the whole NBA was gunshy this season but the pacers should have been active. the james white trade was bad (no way they should have given up picks for him - made absolutely no sense). they typically have made sound moves but this was an offyear. they deserve more time as i said carlisle deserved.



                                all-in-all a tremendously average team at best. many improvements must be made.
                                This is the darkest timeline.

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