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Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

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  • #16
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

    It's interesting that Peck dumped so much on Frank. I was also at the game and thought I saw several changes in the offense. more options that gave guys good shots. The problem was those guys missed those shots. I don't see the Frank hate for this game. He did pretty much all that a coach can do. I have some issues with the amount of time he's playing the guys that can play, but I do understand why he's doing it. At some point, Frank will have pick at least 8 guys and start playing them 35 mpg instead of playing the old starters 40 mpg. Guys are going to wear out and no one will be able to play. At some point he has to start dancing with who he has.

    The Danny sucks in spite of the evidence that he doesn't shtick is getting old to me. I didn't count them, but it seemed that Toronto posted our SF's every other time down the court. Linas Klenza, DeRozan, and the dude from Fresno State shoved our wing defenders under the basket and either forced double teams or just shot over them all night. Some day Paul will be a good post defender, but it wasn't last night. Neither was Lance or Gerald. When none of your wing types can guard Linas Klenza, you have real issues. Pretty sure Danny could guard any of those guys pretty easily. Danny's defense is often criticized here, but the Pacers really missed it last night.

    Pacers missed Danny Granger last night. Evidently he is the only guy on the team that can do that little mid-post post and get that 13-15 footer Peck talks about. I keep waiting for Paul to start doing that. But evidently he just isn't strong enough yet.

    Paul just isn't there yet. His game is better than last years, to be sure. But he seems like the early Jalen Rose in the sense he can do everything ok, but nothing good enough. He is young, and is still getting better, but he still has an almost good enough game. Plus I don't think he's tired enough of getting beat. One of the things that seems to make most good NBA players good players is they really really really don't like losing games. Paul doesn't seem to like losing, but it also doesn't seem to bother him after the games over. A dash of Jeff Foster would help.

    Speaking of young. I think that's a contributing factor. The Pacers two most talented players are the youngest. That has to be an issue. When things are going good, young guys play well. When things start to fall apart, young guys get worse. There is a mental toughness that comes from experience.

    FWIW, the money spent on George Hill last summer was money well spent. Dude is fearless, unselfish, smart, totally coachable, defends and scores. All he wants to do is win. and is willing to do whatever it takes to win. The more guys you have like that on a team, the better that team is.

    The money spent on Roy last summer, meh. I know the team had to pay him. I get that. But right now, Roy is suffering from big contract syndrome. He made lots of money last summer, he's getting lots of props for his community outreach and had professional success last season. As with most guys, he's lost sight of just exactly how hard it is to be a really good NBA player. He's a little out of shape. He's not playing well. He's feeling sorry for himself. Danny is not playing, so he needs to do more to make up for that. The checks keep coming in no matter how he plays. So he's got his head up his as a result. At some point, he will start to play better. He is a good guy that wants to do well. He's just having trouble handling success. More evidence of the youth of this team. His issues fall into the 'what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger' category. At some point he will emerge from this funk mentally stronger and more professional. But right now, he sucks.

    To make a long story short, it's the players, playing bad. When they get tired of losing, they will start playing hard enough to start winning. And it not having Danny Granger on the court. Getting Danny back will fix a host of issues.

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    • #17
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

        I thought in the first half the Pacers defense was awful. It was much better in the second half. (also helped that the Raptors were dead tired in the 4th quarter)

        Offense - sure there were problems, but I thought the biggest problem was just missing a ton of very makable shots. I'm not suggesting that the offense doesn't need fixing, but last night if shotmaking would have been normal the pacers win by 10 points.


        Peck's quote
        His sets are predictable and frankly every team in the league knows them. Tonight Calderon was turning around on defense showing the Raptors what play the Pacers were running by hand signal. In other words whatever Frank held up Jose made sure that his team mates saw it.
        Peck, every team knows the other team's plays. I don't consider this a negative factor at all. Defense knows what plays are coming, that is not a big deal. (of course everyone hated JOB's read and react offense system where the defense doesn't know the "play", because they don't run plays) I think every coaches sets are predictable. That isn't the problem at all.
        Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-14-2012, 09:41 AM.

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        • #19
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

          Originally posted by fwpacerfan View Post
          This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

          I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.
          Strange how losing a few games at the start of a season can be said to be very low basketball IQ. This is the same group that played so well last year. Did they get dumbed down in the off season? This is just silly....

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          • #20
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

            Originally posted by fwpacerfan View Post
            This team has very low basketball IQ which is why they consistently make bad passes and miss assignments on D. There isn't much that can be done at this point - Vogel needs to figure out a rotation and stick to it. Roy needs to start making appts with his shrink again - he looks like the fragile Roy that played for JOB - not the confident Roy of last year.

            I think Granger brought more swagger and attitude than I thought and this team is lacking that right now.

            I would suggest sitting Augustin. Play Ben at back up guard. We need some fire and hustle off the bench.
            Additionally Tyler needs to play a lot. He is really starting to defend well. Heck, try him at sf for awhile.

            As far as the draft.......sigh.....are we already looking at that?

            http://www.nbadraft.net/players/marcus-smart
            {o,o}
            |)__)
            -"-"-

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            • #21
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

              I'm just trying to be patient, but I'm running out of what I have little of... PATIENCE. I'm absolutely frustrated with this team! Granger isn't the reason this team is playing this poorly. Sure, his absence contributes to it, but it isn't the major reason or the sole reason for this team playing so poorly.

              The FO should stand up and take a bow for this mess. Walsh overpaid players, pure and simple. He gave contracts for too long of length and some with every year guaranteed. Ridiculous! If this type of tripe continues, the Pacers will be right where they were when he left... hamstrung with terrible contracts until they expire. Mr. Simon, you wanted Walsh, so I hope you like what you getting. The Pacer fans don't. You know the ones who support this team. This is exactly why I was so adament about Walsh not returning to the Pacers.

              I'm more disinterested in the Pacers now than I have been in the last 5-6 years. After last season, not in my wildest dreams did I ever think I'd make a statement like that!

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              • #22
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                Our biggest issue imo and the first that needs to go is Walsh. He needs to be held accountable for squandering our hard earned cap space this summer and killing our chemistry by almost turning in his entire hand with our bench just for the sake of change.
                If we had DC, Jones, and Barbosa we win agains last night. If Hibbert were playing like last year we win again last night. I don't know what to do about Hibbert but if we'd just offered Kaman a 3 year 24 mil deal and called it quits we'd have a replacement on hand right now.
                Since were stuck with what we have I'd say Vogel needs to be put on notice. A coach has to find a way to get the most out of his players and Vogel just isn't right now. I don't know if a coaching change would help but I'd support it if it were a true upgrade to someone like Sloan.
                Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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                • #23
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                  It's very depressing when you think about how close we were to getting OJ Mayo for freaking McRoberts. It's even more depressing when you realize that the Mayo/Collison backcourt is help keeping the Mavs' head above water right now. We almost had Mayo and should have never dumped Collison for such a pitiful package.

                  The Pacers are minus Granger and Collison. We're without two of our best players from last year's team (including the best) and we have no adequate replacements. It's not surprising that we haven't looked near as good as last year. The talent right now is nowhere near what it was a year ago. The Granger situation obviously isn't our fault, but trading Collison sure is. Collison will torch us on Friday night when Dallas rolls into town.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                    The one positive from the Raptors game is the Pacers should not be tired for the Bucks game tonight since they didn't use much energy last night.

                    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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                    • #25
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                      Last night, it came down to this: the Pacers could literally not make a shot when they needed to. The Pacers played like crap but were still given many opportunities to take charge in the 4th quarter, but laid an egg. I'm not sure how much is the coach's fault (every team knows every team's sets, or they should). I think the team started believing the hype, that they were a shoe in for the 2 seed in the east, and guess what? They aren't. I don't think the sky is falling (yet), but the team has to start playing well soon, maybe even shoot better than 32%. The opportunity is there, it is up to the Pacers to seize it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                        Originally posted by Alabama-Redneck View Post
                        The one positive from the Raptors game is the Pacers should not be tired for the Bucks game tonight since they didn't use much energy last night.

                        Hey!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                          You guys tell me what's wrong.
                          I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

                          They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

                          They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

                          They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

                          They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

                          At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.
                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                          • #28
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                            I agree with this plus the impact of no Granger, no Collison, and no true sharpshooter. All these things are factors in a complex, yet frustrating equation.

                            All of this said, the one thing the players can control night in and night out is effort and intensity. Right now, we are not getting it consistently. We're getting two or three guys truly busting their *** for a win each night while the rest just saunter around like zombies out there. That is absolutely unacceptable. Motivation/Desire is just horseshit right now.

                            Whoops, meant to respond to Big Rik with quote...

                            Last night, it came down to this: the Pacers could literally not make a shot when they needed to. The Pacers played like crap but were still given many opportunities to take charge in the 4th quarter, but laid an egg. I'm not sure how much is the coach's fault (every team knows every team's sets, or they should). I think the team started believing the hype, that they were a shoe in for the 2 seed in the east, and guess what? They aren't. I don't think the sky is falling (yet), but the team has to start playing well soon, maybe even shoot better than 32%. The opportunity is there, it is up to the Pacers to seize it.
                            Last edited by D-BONE; 11-14-2012, 10:43 AM.
                            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                            -Emiliano Zapata

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                            • #29
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                              I really can't believe there are folks climbing on the defense after this game. Yeah, I know, the excuse is that the Raptors were tired, but if someone tells you the opponent will score 74 points - and only 5 in the fourth quarter - how many people here would talk about that as the sign of a poor defense and that the Pacers would lose the game?

                              Did the Pacers miss open looks? Yes. However, once again they were totally unsuccessful at getting high-percentage shots because the opponent can clog the middle and dare us to make outside jumpers. No one tries to drive the lane and draw a foul - heck, I'd take a turnover on a charge at this point if it would fire someone up. Every shot under the basket is contested by at least 2 defenders - and when it isn't, the posted ballhandler inexplicably passes out to the perimeter for a beautiful brick.

                              It is 8 games, and I will continue to reserve judgement until at least 10 (with an adjustment at 20), but as of right now this is one of the worst offensive teams I have ever seen.

                              All that said, we got upgraded to 7th row last night and I saw Tyler make one of the most beautiful defensive plays I've ever seen. I don't remember if it was a rebound or a pass, but he used his left hand to deflect it up and over his man's head then back tapped it with his right and turned to block his man away and continue his dribble up court. It was fantastic.
                              BillS

                              A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                              Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

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                              • #30
                                Re: Odd Thoughts: Shameful loss to the Raptors

                                Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                                I know what's wrong, the Pacers signed a guy that's never going to be dominant to a salary that's meant for players that are above average, close to star or superstar, like I said before, the Pacers FO were/are hoping that a lot of things work in their favor just like they did last year, they were/are hoping that Roy doesn't disappear like he has done pretty much every year for about two or three months.

                                They were/are hoping that someway somehow Gerald Green becomes the player Boston thought he was going to be five years ago.

                                They were/are hoping that Paul George becomes a superstar so they could have a chance to make it to the finals with the team they put around him.

                                They were/are hoping that Ian Mahinmi is not as bad as he was in Dallas and that his hands got better.

                                They were hoping that Danny's knee issues didn't come back to haunt him.

                                At the end of the day a good FO is not making moves and signing people out of hope, this is a business you get the known commodity, that's just what good teams do.
                                You are exactly right. The Pacers mindset that certain type players won't come here is just plain wrong. They had a chance in the off season to do something special and blew it big time. We are back to the days of overrating average players and paying them way too much money. No team should be at the top of the cap and not have a go to player on the team. We have a team of nothing more than role players. Not one player makes his teammates better. Augustine looks like he is bored to death. I never thought I would miss Collison but he is far better than Augustine. People need to stop valuing Hibbert because he is a good guy and good in the community. He needs to produce on the floor. He is nowhere near a max player or an all star. We spent alot of money on a big scoreboard apparently to try to draw fans. The players should be drawing fans. GET A STAR who can deliver in the clutch and stop making excuses instead of getting all excited because someone can jump high enough to look down at the basket. They give no points for that, it means nothing.

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