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Olympic Basketball Thread

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  • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

    Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
    I understand this sentiment. It is the majority view these days. Certainly we lost previously due to overconfidence and a sense of entitlement. It's now obvious that preparation, teamwork and focus are prerequisites for the US to win these days. However, those factors are not the only reason the US won and not at all why they blew teams out.

    While many people focus on the now obvious fact that quickness and athleticism does not automatically lead to success in international competition, most people seem to dismiss it as a small factor or dismiss it altogether. Interestingly, opponents who experience the thrashing first-hand seem quick to acknowledge these as significant factors...even if it's not in vogue to do so.

    IMO, team USA would lose big time if they did not have superior quickness and athleticism. As a team, they are not the best group of shooters, they do not have great size and they are not exceptionally better at moving the ball...yet most games were blow-outs and they never won by less than double digits. Now, why is that?

    Some might say it's talent, baby. Well, IMO it is their overall quickness and athleticism...an advantage that is not going away anytime soon.
    They compete because they prepared properly and finally put together a real team. But they win by large margins because they are quicker and more athletic.
    Well if the logic you are using is so absolute, then if Jamaica ever focuses on basketball we are screwed.

    I personally don't see is it as absolute as that. We just have a big country that has alot of resources devoted into basketball. If anyone had the pool to draw from or the amount of resources invested in nurturing talent almost from birth, Im sure we would have an arch rival. Until that time we will probably be dominate. If you think about it a country like Russia or China could be up there if they devoted the resources.

    Comment


    • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

      While on any given Sunday a team can beat the US, we are significantly better than any of the other teams.
      "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

      "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

      Comment


      • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

        Originally posted by Arcadian View Post
        While on any given Sunday a team can beat the US, we are significantly better than any of the other teams.
        If we maintain the same approach we used this time around. If we slack off on that, or if the premier players go back to deciding it isn't worth their time, we'll have trouble.

        And eventually some team will be good enough that we'll lose. Spain wasn't that far off if our shooting had gone south.
        The poster formerly known as Rimfire

        Comment


        • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

          I suppose I think the key to this Olympics for the US was LeBron.

          From what I saw in the games I could watch and what I read and heard, he was the active integrating part of the team. I've always been impressed by the way he came into the league as a team player in spite of the hype machine, and I think he showed it here.

          Everyone embracing a team attitude and communicating well (plus accepting that they were an Olympic team and not a bunch of traveling all-stars on an exhibition spree) made the difference.
          BillS

          A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
          Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

          Comment


          • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

            Israfan, I don't believe the USA team had their best game at all. They were embarrassing on defense for stretches. Defense was normally their calling card.

            Comment


            • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

              Originally posted by BillS View Post
              I suppose I think the key to this Olympics for the US was LeBron.

              From what I saw in the games I could watch and what I read and heard, he was the active integrating part of the team. I've always been impressed by the way he came into the league as a team player in spite of the hype machine, and I think he showed it here.

              Everyone embracing a team attitude and communicating well (plus accepting that they were an Olympic team and not a bunch of traveling all-stars on an exhibition spree) made the difference.
              He definately was strong and important. He kept the ball moving on offense. There were a couple of scores he had that wondered if he could that why not every time? I mean he would weave and soar over their entire team. And then he would fade away while others stepped up.

              Defensively he was important and he helped start fast breaks. A lot of the steals where because LeBron was guarding a release player so easily.

              Comment


              • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                Israfan, I don't believe the USA team had their best game at all. They were embarrassing on defense for stretches. Defense was normally their calling card.
                Perimeter defense was their calling card. Turnovers and pressure were the key to the game in this one just as in US victories before. But you can't expect to play such high pressure defense and play four perimeter players and one big, then not give up offensive rebounds and backdoor points. I think they were poor on the latter two fronts, but not much worse than usual. You just didn't notice in the previous games because other teams handled the pressure even worse than Spain. I'm not criticizing the post players per se (except to say that Howard needs to find a way to make himself relevant down the stretch) but saying that the system is high-risk/high-reward, and they weren't good at recovering when Spain got past the perimeter pressure (Spain's guard kept blowing by Paul and a few of the other perimeter defenders*). To be fair, the US probably won the tournament because of that style.

                *Note, it's interesting that despite all the hype about Chris Paul (and he is a great player, no doubt), I don't think he's a very good defender. He can poke away careless ball handling and play passing lanes, but he doesn't seem to have superior lateral quickness on the defensive end and his size is sometimes a bit of a concern.
                Last edited by bulldog; 08-25-2008, 01:30 PM.
                2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

                Comment


                • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                  Originally posted by HeartlandFan View Post
                  Where did I say this was a blowout? It was a very difficult game for the US. It was a lot tougher than I was expecting. But if you think Spain was playing this way for the whole olympics, I will have to seriously disagree with that.

                  They played the best game of their Olympics and it came at the right time. I still think they overachieved in this game..You can disagree if you like, I couldn't care less.
                  First to me your tone was indicative of it being a "walk in the park"-type of victory. Like "woohoo even though Spain played their best game ever and had everything going for them they still lost in double digits!!!"

                  Secondly this was Spains best game of the tournament, but they had been playing pretty much down to what we are used from them, so it was about time. I don't think they overachieved. I think this is what Spain is supposed to play like. I also could pass the ball back and say that the US shot a lot better then they normally do. Does that detract from the US performance? No to me, but the otherway around it somehow does. Then it's "they are shooting better then ever before, oh oh so lucky for them (normally we would kick their asses with a 30pt differential)"-sort of attitude.

                  And about the caring less part... good to know, says more about you then me though.

                  Regards,

                  Mourning
                  2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                  2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

                  2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

                  Comment


                  • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                    You honestly don't think they overachieved during the game?

                    Admittingly, I don't watch a whole lot of international ball and have only watched Rudy a few times, but some of the 3s he was hitting was absolutely amazing.

                    He was launching the ball 20 ft into the air and hitting. It wasn't just a little adjustment on his normal shooting, but a HUGE change in the trajectory of his normal shot.

                    He was being defended well, with a hand not in his face but pretty close to getting a piece of the ball. They were rainbow shots that barely moved the net because they were practically coming down at a 90degree angle.

                    I would take a player shooting those type of shots every single day of the week. There are going to be a handful of days out of the year were a player hits that many difficult shots.

                    I would say Pau played like he normally does, and I didn't see much change in the way some of the other players performed, but Rudy and Navarro (along with Rubio to an extent) really stepped up their game.

                    I'm giving them a compliment BTW. I think they gave a life time performance on the biggest stage against the best of the NBA's best. Do you honestly think they could play like that consistantly? That is the question.

                    I can not fathom them being able to replicate that kind of performance consecutively, or even periodically. If Navarro could perform like that night in and night out he would have made a much bigger impact in the league, and Fernadez would have been here a long time ago.

                    That was a hell of a performance they put on, but a performance that I doubt they can replicate very often.

                    EDIT: You really couldn't pass the ball back saying the US shot better than normal. They're FG% was pretty spot on to what it's been throughout the tourney. Wade and Kobe hit a couple tough 3s, but in the grand scheme of the game, the team was getting open looks. Melo had a couple wide open 3s on the wing, and Paul/DWil were routinely open in the corners.

                    If Kobe hadn't started the games 1-17 from 3, you would have saw a different overall 3pt% for the team.
                    Last edited by Since86; 08-25-2008, 04:11 PM.
                    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                      Rudy played out of his mind, I don't expect to see that for the Trailblazers every night next year. But every once in a while, that would make them a fun team.

                      However, I still do think the US also played better than usual on the offensive end, truly a game where two good teams brought out the best in each other (Kobe living up to the moment, Wade playing great perimeter D, etc.) I'm not sure you can compare stats with previous games because this one was competitive until the last minutes, whereas others were over by halftime.
                      Last edited by bulldog; 08-25-2008, 04:29 PM.
                      2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

                      Comment


                      • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                        You haven't watched Rudy play yet you say that was a huge adjustment on his shot? just watching a couple youtube highlights of his play in Europe would have shown you that it's normal shot for him, he launches these kind of threes under pressure almost every game. Navarro shot 6/14, hes had alot of games better than this in NBA.

                        And i don't understand one thing, USA won, but some of you feel dissapointed that it wasn't a 40 point blowout and need to put down the opponent? I guess that all of Spains players played the game of their lives they should just retire. Common now, that was a very good game, but the game of their lives? Where would a 50 point drubbing of a healthy Argentina team rank? If it makes you feel better you can pretend that USA won by 60 points, i guess gold is not good enough.
                        Last edited by Chewy; 08-25-2008, 04:56 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                          Originally posted by Chewy View Post
                          You haven't watched Rudy play yet you say that was a huge adjustment on his shot? just watching a couple youtube highlights of his play in Europe would have shown you that it's normal shot for him, he launches these kind of threes under pressure almost every game.

                          And i don't understand one thing, USA won, but some of you feel dissapointed that it wasn't a 40 point blowout and need to put down the opponent? I guess that all of Spains players played the game of their lives they should just retire. Common now, that was a very good game, but the game of their lives? Where would a 50 point drubbing of a healthy Argentina team rank? If it makes you feel better you can pretend that USA won by 60 points, i guess gold is not good enough.
                          You don't need a stinking PhD. to see the difference in the arc on his shot. He was shooting rainbows to get the ball released because of the defenders. He didn't shoot that high of an arc when a hand was in his face, but was forced too due to the hand being at his release point.

                          I can't access clips while here at work, but I'm sure you can do it yourself. His release on numerous shots were very different than what he normally does. I'm not taking away from his performance, it was something to watch and to get excited about considering Portland is my 2nd favorite team.

                          Yes, you could very plainly see that his shot/release was being altered due to the defender and hitting those high trajectory shots are extremely difficult due to the higher degree of distance control because you don't flick your wrist the same as a lower trajectory.


                          And yes, I stand by my comment that they played the game of their lives. Considering how they played, the atmosphere of the game, who they were playing, and what the stakes are I would be willing to bet it ranks pretty high up on their list of the best games they've ever played. (Talking about Rudy and Navarro.)

                          Outside of the fouls, what else could you expect Fernadez to do? He did what he wanted, when he wanted, and the results came out in his favor more often than not. Navarro was playing against the top tier PGs in the NBA and getting into the lane at will. He didn't/couldn't do that in Memphis on the regular basis that he did the other night.

                          Those two in particular played as well as you could ever asked them too. I think the rest of the Spainish team played about how they normally do, but when two guys go up an extra gear or two the gap between the two teams get even closer.

                          It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.
                          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                            Team USA plus-minus stats, via TrueHoop:
                            http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics...f3a6cdc41bfbef

                            Know lots of you don't believe in this stuff (particularly when calculated over 40 minutes) but for those who do, interesting how Bosh's contribution comes out and Kobe comes up as less effective.
                            2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

                            Comment


                            • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                              Originally posted by Since86 View Post

                              It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.
                              Yes, it's pretty simple. It's natural...almost a given...when a team blows out another team for the next game to be closer. It's a natural tendency for players to let down a bit after beating another team by 40 points....and for the other team to be up. None of this should be a surprise. This is true whether you are playing one-on-one at the park or in the olympics. It's happens all the time and I suspect most everyone posting here is aware of that...particularly if you have ever played competitively.

                              If Spain had made a better showing the first time around, the final game would not have been quite as close. I suspect it would have been closer to 20 points or so instead of 11. If the first game had been really close, I would not be surprised if we beat them to death in the medal game. This doesn't say anything about how good these teams are, but more about human nature. All things considered, there is probably about a 15 point difference between Team USA and all the other top clubs on average...and that difference might be 20.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Olympic Basketball Thread

                                Originally posted by Since86 View Post
                                You don't need a stinking PhD. to see the difference in the arc on his shot. He was shooting rainbows to get the ball released because of the defenders. He didn't shoot that high of an arc when a hand was in his face, but was forced too due to the hand being at his release point.

                                I can't access clips while here at work, but I'm sure you can do it yourself. His release on numerous shots were very different than what he normally does. I'm not taking away from his performance, it was something to watch and to get excited about considering Portland is my 2nd favorite team.

                                Yes, you could very plainly see that his shot/release was being altered due to the defender and hitting those high trajectory shots are extremely difficult due to the higher degree of distance control because you don't flick your wrist the same as a lower trajectory.


                                And yes, I stand by my comment that they played the game of their lives. Considering how they played, the atmosphere of the game, who they were playing, and what the stakes are I would be willing to bet it ranks pretty high up on their list of the best games they've ever played. (Talking about Rudy and Navarro.)

                                Outside of the fouls, what else could you expect Fernadez to do? He did what he wanted, when he wanted, and the results came out in his favor more often than not. Navarro was playing against the top tier PGs in the NBA and getting into the lane at will. He didn't/couldn't do that in Memphis on the regular basis that he did the other night.

                                Those two in particular played as well as you could ever asked them too. I think the rest of the Spainish team played about how they normally do, but when two guys go up an extra gear or two the gap between the two teams get even closer.

                                It's not rocket science. I didn't expect another blowout, I expected around 15pts difference if both teams play at their "normal" level. Two of the Spainish players out performed their "normal" thus making it a closer game.
                                What is "normal" and how often do players have "normal" games, i don't see anything extraordinary if player plays better than "normal" it happens every freaking game, someone plays above average, someone below, if everyone played to their average they would not even need to play. unless youv'e seen every game the player played, how can you say they played the game of their lives? You said considering who they played, what was at stake and the atmosphere of the game, but it was the only game, there is nothing to compare to, whose to say they wouldn't duplicate this performace a couple times if they played a series of games. It was an excellent game for navarro and even better for Rudy, it was certainly not their average. Maybe we just have different opinions of what is a game of their lives and arguing over words, then i'm sorry.

                                I don't get this thing trying to quantify the quality of teams in points, have you ever argued how much Pacers are better than Knicks in points? If you really want to do that i guess you can take the average of the two games, USA is better then Spain by 24 points. Every game is different tho.
                                Last edited by Chewy; 08-25-2008, 05:42 PM.

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