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What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

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  • #16
    Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

    an expiring + 10 + Rush and having to absorb Okafor is too much to get Collison. In a vacuum it's close, but there are too many PGs being bandied about to pay that much for a young one.

    I think you either leave Rush out of it, or NO includes their pick this year or a future 1st. I've often heard that the mark of a good trade is that both teams grimace, but do the trade, and those two scenarios accomplish that. The full boat that Grady was throwing around leaves Pacers fans with a bad taste in their mouth and Hornets fans happy as a clam.

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    • #17
      Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

      Originally posted by Sookie View Post
      He (Price) was considered better until Paul got hurt.

      OKC for one, there were certainly a few games where Price "took" over. But it's tough to take over an entire game, when you're only given 17 minutes.

      The system is relevant. Why? Because NO system revolves completely around Paul. Which meant that their system revolved completely around Collison when he stepped in.

      My point was, given the same amount of time, Price was considered slightly better..it was only until Collison got his shot in a point guard oriented system did everyone think he was the best thing since 7-up.

      He COULD be. But he also may not even be as good as Price. And I question whether losing 10 and/or Rush..plus probably Price in the future (or Collison, if it turns out he's not as good as AJ) as well as gaining Okafor's mega contract is worth it..right now. Instead of being a bit more patient. As I said, my guess is Collison's trade value is at its highest right now.

      If Paul stays healthy next season, he's back to a 15 mpg player and people will forget about his month. If Paul gets injured again, most likely Collison becomes more valuable to NO then he would be to other teams.

      My point is to be patient. We won't be that good next season, unless there is a mega trade. We need PGs yes, but we also need to see what PG we need. Is Price starting caliber? Wouldn't it be good to figure it out before we get rid of Rush and/or 10 for someone who could be equally good (OOPS JOB, probably could have gotten a good idea in febuary/march..if he had been given 30 mpg)

      And as I said, if we really think Collison is THAT much better than AJ, then give NO Aj as a backup PG instead of giving them Rush (We're taking back Okafor's huge contract, we're in the driver's seat, I would think) or the #10. I'd just rather not waste our valuable pieces. (Or as I said, if they're willing to give us Collison and Okafor for just two expirings)

      I know, I know, grass is always greener somewhere else..
      On the plus side, I think Collison's minutes provide our staff with plenty of film to watch and determine whether they think he is a long term solution. If they feel that he is a legit starter long term, or even a possible All-Star then they should go get him. I think it'd be harder to determine with Ty Lawson because he played well in limited minutes. I think he'll wind up being a good player though. There's just less evidence and more of a "gut feeling" if they make a move for him. There's even less on Eric Maynor. And last year we took AJ Price in the 2nd round because we felt he was close to all of those guys (besides maybe Lawson) in talent. Of course, now he's blown out his knee so who knows. My guess is still that they'll go get Lawson if they can.

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      • #18
        Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

        Giving up the 10th pick and not getting a pick in return is not a good trade if all we will be getting is a 2nd year PG. It is more important to get a PF to play along side Hibbert, and possibly be better than Hibbert, than it is to get a PG. If the Pacers want to trade a future pick for Lawson or Collison I'd be ok with it, but not the 10th pick. Especially if we have to take on a contract like Okafor. History shows that having two great PF/C's on the court is always, with only a couple of exceptions, better than having a great PG. This draft just has too many good PF/C in it to pass it up to fix a mistake from last year.

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        • #19
          Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

          still think ty lawson would fit better in indy
          Murph

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          • #20
            Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

            Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
            History shows that having two great PF/C's on the court is always, with only a couple of exceptions, better than having a great PG.
            Interesting comment. Not one that everyone will agree with, but interesting nonetheless.

            Tbird (and others), let me repeat here a question I posted in your Monroe thread: if you perceive a better fit & more potential in Monroe than in, say, Udoh or Patterson or Orton, yet you also suspect that Monroe will be taken in the #4 - #6 range, what would you be willing to do to move up for him? Is the incremental cost worth the potential improved value? Does your answer change for Favors and/or Cousins?

            P.S. Welcome, Eleazar!
            Last edited by DrFife; 06-19-2010, 09:47 AM.


            "He’s no shrinking violet when it comes to that kind of stuff."

            - Rick Carlisle on how Kevin Pritchard responds to needed roster changes.

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            • #21
              Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

              I think the Pacers would be better off just picking a PF at 10, and keeping our expiring contracts this season. And in the 2nd round the Pacers have 2 picks and I would burn them both on pg's... such as Vasquez, Reynolds, Collins, Scheyer, Bouldin....... Maybe they will get lucky....

              I really like Vasquez, he is big and can shoot and pass....

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                Originally posted by woowoo View Post
                I think the Pacers would be better off just picking a PF at 10, and keeping our expiring contracts this season. And in the 2nd round the Pacers have 2 picks and I would burn them both on pg's... such as Vasquez, Reynolds, Collins, Scheyer, Bouldin....... Maybe they will get lucky....

                I really like Vasquez, he is big and can shoot and pass....
                If we can't trade for a good young PG, I am completely on board with this idea.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                  Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
                  At this point I'd give up Brandon Rush in a heart beat, SG's are a dime a dozen. He plays good defense but you draft a SG in the second round who can do the same as Rush right now. That guy just doesn't have the aggressive streak you need out of a SG.
                  I understand a lot of people don't think he is the answer at SG, but you are not going to draft a 2nd rounder that completely replaces what he does.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                    Originally posted by IndianapolisPacer View Post
                    I understand a lot of people don't think he is the answer at SG, but you are not going to draft a 2nd rounder that completely replaces what he does.
                    It really isn't asking that much for that 2nd rounder to do. Be above average defensively and chip in 5-10 points a night. Sure Brandon had some solid scoring nights, but he had just as many nights with less than 10 points (including a handful of games that he didn't score at all) as he did nights with 10 or more. It wouldn't be at all out of the realm of possibility that we could find a guy at #40 that could fill his role on the team. I could easily see a guy like Quincy Pondexter,Devin Ebanks or Lance Stephenson filling that role if they fall to #40.

                    This is being said with me actually being a pretty big supporter of Rush.
                    Last edited by SMosley21; 06-19-2010, 02:03 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                      Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
                      Except Sessions is a terrible 3pt shooter.
                      Neither is Rajon Rondo. Not sure why Boston didn't do some of this, but when you have a player who isn't a great shooter, especially when a defender sags off of him, you make him a screener or player who hands off a lot.

                      Originally posted by graphic-er View Post
                      Oh this argument is ridiculous, people dont' want to take a chance on a young promising PG like Collison cause he is in some way un proven, and they dont' want Tony Parker cause he is getting too old. Just what kind of PG do you people think you are going to get? You aren't going to find a great point guard available in the prime of their career.
                      Up to the point your post here, the issue for me is size. If I'm going to deal assets to get a PG, there are a few players who have produced what Collison did in their stints as starters. I'd rather go for Ramon Sessions or George Hill (over looked him last post).

                      Others took issue with forming a deal that would also bring back Okafor's contract. It depends on how that would work, but on the surface, I'd wouldn't want to take his contract back. He has the same contract in terms of length left and money as Granger.

                      Not sure the Pacers need to occupy 40% of their cap space on those two.
                      Courtside: Featuring Indiana boys' high school basketball

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                      • #26
                        Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                        Originally posted by SMosley21 View Post
                        It really isn't asking that much for that 2nd rounder to do. Be above average defensively and chip in 5-10 points a night. Sure Brandon had some solid scoring nights, but he had just as many nights with less than 10 points (including a handful of games that he didn't score at all) as he did nights with 10 or more. It wouldn't be at all out of the realm of possibility that we could find a guy at #40 that could fill his role on the team. I could easily see a guy like Quincy Pondexter,Devin Ebanks or Lance Stephenson filling that role if they fall to #40.

                        This is being said with me actually being a pretty big supporter of Rush.
                        Someone did a search on that basketball website comparing Rush's defense with the best defenders in the NBA. Rush was
                        right there with them in close to every category and even ahead in some. Rush is on his way to becoming an elite defender, you don't find that in the second round often. Also, if we had a coach who knew how to use him, he could easily be averaging 16 ppg with that defense.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                          Really, some people think Price is anywhere close to Collison? Come on now...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                            Originally posted by spreedom View Post
                            Really, some people think Price is anywhere close to Collison? Come on now...
                            That position isn't that Price is also a future all star, its that people are overrating the crap out of Collison.

                            Collison did an outstanding job stepping in for Paul. But as I pointed out, his numbers were worse than AJ's, when they were getting the same amount of time. And I also pointed out, he was placed into a system that completely revolved around him. As I said, he did a good job, but I think it's very possible that if he was to be placed on a different team, he'd look a little more like TJ Ford and a little less like Chris Paul.

                            But regardless, despite the fact that I feel that a LOT of the PGs drafted were about the same level of player (Lawson, Collison, Price, Flynn although Flynn struggled at times, he did have more pressure on him than the other three.) They were in college, and when given around the same time in the Pros they were then too. (Not saying they aren't completely different players, all with their own flaws and all bringing something difference. IE Price is a lot less athletic than the other three, but he's also a smarter player than the other three.) I feel that all four will top somewhere between Fringe starter and solid starter. But my opinion here can be argued with. But that hasn't been the point of my posts.

                            My whole point, is that, we haven't seen what level AJ is at as a starter. So yea, Collison got lucky (at Paul's expense) and got 40 MPG, and got to be in a system completely revolving around him, and he did produce. The point though, is the Pacers need to be careful. Not to rush into getting a new PG at the expense of the #10 pick and Rush. And losing our "best" expiring. And taking on Okafor's contract if we aren't sure we want him. And if I'm right (and there really isn't anything to prove otherwise) and Price and Collison are about equal, then we'd end up losing one of the two as well.

                            So don't rush into it. Collison's value isn't going to get any higher. It'll either get lower, or he won't be for sale (and Paul will.) See what we have first, so that we know what we need. We have no idea how our young pieces would be by themselves ( as in, without with Ford or Murphy or Jimmy) How they fit together, and where their potential is. We need to figure that out.

                            Now, if NO was saying "we'll give you Collison and Okafor for TJ and Dun" basically to expirings, and not giving up any younger pieces..basically them trying to dumb Okafor's contract. Than do it in a heart beat. My point is to be a bit more cautionary, because if the Pacer's are too reckless, they have the potential to look REALLY dumb.
                            Last edited by Sookie; 06-19-2010, 05:12 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                              Originally posted by Sookie View Post
                              There's no guarantee Collison will be any better than Price will be. Anyone who thinks he brings a "pass first" mentality, is off. And particularly in this system. Yes, we've seen Collison put up All Star numbers for a month when Paul was out. But when he got the same amount of minutes as AJ, his numbers were worse than AJ's. Collison was also placed into a system completely geared towards the PG.

                              But regardless, the asking price for Collison is likely
                              10th pick + Expiring + Okafor and perhaps Rush.

                              Then add in the fact that if Collison and Price end up being relatively close to equal, odds are we couldn't keep them boths. So the asking price could be,
                              10th pick + expiring +Okafor's contract + Rush + Price

                              Or the Pacers could end up deciding they like Price better, so inevitably we give up the 10th pick + expiring + Rush and take on Okafor's contract for nothing.

                              Just something to think about..before the Pacers rush into the season trying to find a point when the Pacers aren't going to be that good next season anyway.

                              Dun and TJ for Okafor and Collison (basically being two expirings to take on Okafor's contract) Do it without hesitation. But the Pacers ought to be careful about throwing Rush and the tenth pick around. If anything, give them an expiring and Price in a PG exchange. (Also remember, this is likely the summer that NO can get the most for Collison. )
                              I could not agree more with Sookie here regarding Collison, or the trading options. If you search for Collison content in last year's prospect thread, or the prospect thread from 2 years ago, you'll find many comments by me following a UCLA viewing where DC just dribbled down the shot clock looking to be the star.

                              His assists are more like Westbrook's, they come off his own dribble quickness as he looks for a score, then dumps. The difference is that Westbrook is far less selfish, he just happens to be a scoring guard more than PG and he has an innate sense of where plays are going and always gets himself into the mix. Collison OTOH is meant to be a pure PG but he just hasn't shown a knack for that up to this point.

                              What this means is that he's taking over your offense, and if you have no offense except spot up shooters or guys looking to finish at the rim then he can put up numbers.

                              But what he isn't doing is making an existing offense work better. He will vampire away touches from your star scorers (ie, Danny, Roy) and relegate them to waiting till 5 seconds on the shot clock to get a last second dump pass and finish. He'll still get an assist in the box score for that, much like TJ Ford does. But this is not the same as running the show and enhancing the other offensive players.

                              He took as many shots as Paul (per36 min) but was at 70% the assist level of Paul, shot worse than Paul, and had 50% more TOs than Paul. So how is it possible that a guy can be a 20 assist or 30 points type, numbers awesome even by Paul's standard, yet be significantly below him per minute in a year where Paul was injured even?

                              Because those were the anomalies. Think about how many poor assist outings it takes to reduce 20 assists per game down to 5. 3 more games of full minutes with zero assists, 6 more games with 1-2 per game, etc.

                              That's the reality.

                              They had 8 guys get 35% of the minutes or more. Of that core 8, Collison was BY FAR the worst On/Off court +/- guy on the team. They were far better when he wasn't playing.

                              That's the reality.

                              Price did not make the 35% minutes cut for Indy, but he was the team's top On/Off +/- guy.

                              Price and Collison both led teams to a 1.07 OFF rating, but defensively Price's squads shelled out just 1.04 points while Collison, a defensive ace, was part of giving up 1.12 (the 2nd worst behind Peterson).


                              Why? Because Collison insists on driving to the rim and into traffic constantly, taking himself out of defensive position when he finds trouble in the paint (often) and leaving someone else to pick up his man going the other way. He leaves teammates sitting on islands watching him do his thing, much like Travis Best.

                              And expecting him to change now after years of this makes no sense. It could happen, but it's not the most likely thing to happen. He had Kevin Love AND Russell Westbrook as teammates and they were just as good then, yet he couldn't rack up huge assists with them as teammates.

                              He took 15 or more FGAs in 19 games.

                              His 20 assists vs GSW came with the Warriors using Chris Hunter (18 min) and Tolliver (26 min) as their only bigs. No Biedrins, no Turiah, no Ellis either. On his end he had Okafur go 10-12 and West go 11-16. Drive and dump to bigs who have no one even close to their size on the court with them.

                              Against Dallas he took 21 shots against 3 assits and 5 TOs. He was -19 for the game. The 2nd worst Hornet was -11. West and Collison both played 44 minutes, so nearly all the game. Somehow West was +5, meaning in the 4 minutes they didn't play at the same time the Hornets went +24 with West in and Collison out.




                              Collison is a very quick ball handler, great NBA quickness. But up till now he's been extremely ball dominate. If you acquire Collison I suggest trading Granger.

                              If I were the Hornets I'd trade high while I can. Or hope that by playing behind Paul (something he wouldn't be doing in Indy), Collison can learn more of a true PG style. I'm not saying he won't, I'm saying it's an issue and the odds are against a drastic shift in mentality. Guys tend to keep being who they are rather than suddenly changing.

                              In Indy JOB would only exacerbate his score-first issues and 20 FGA a game would be the norm. Sure we'd have 7-8 dump off assists to go with it, but the offense would just be "set pick, Collison dribbles, wait to see how that goes".
                              Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 06-19-2010, 08:46 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Re: What If: The Indiana Pacers Acquire Darren Collison

                                If Collison can give me another 18 assist game while averaging 9 as a starter, he can be selfish all he wants in my eyes.

                                Also, the fact that you just tried to discredit Collison, a feaking rookie, by comparing his numbers to Chris Paul, a future Hall of Famer, is so ridiculous that I don't even know where to begin.
                                Last edited by Dr. Awesome; 06-19-2010, 08:54 PM.

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