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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

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  • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

    Originally posted by Eindar View Post
    The point is, use the stats as an objective way to quantify a particular aspect of a player or team. Use your eyes to see if that player subjectively is helping your team win.
    Or, in other words, this.
    BillS

    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

    Comment


    • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

      Originally posted by Bball View Post
      I'm not arguing that they do.
      I guess I don't see the point in fighting an admitted strawman argument.
      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

      Comment


      • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

        Originally posted by Since86 View Post
        I guess I don't see the point in fighting an admitted strawman argument.
        Somewhere I think the point was lost long ago with people choosing sides without even knowing what the other side was saying.

        IOW... Troy Murphy was never the point. Just an example or analogy that popped up in the midst of a lot of other info. For some reason, you then got focused on Troy Murphy.
        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

        ------

        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

        -John Wooden

        Comment


        • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

          Originally posted by Eindar View Post
          Likewise, if you only rely on advanced stats, you are going to miss out on some nuances to a players game that don't show up in the stats, such as, "hey, this guy likes to go to strip clubs while carrying a gun"
          "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

          Comment


          • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

            Originally posted by Eindar View Post
            Just for fun, can we have the stats and eyeball guys give their opinioins on two players who have had interesting statistical careers? Namely, Shane Battier and Rudy Gay. My feelings are that they eyeball guys should love Battier and be relatively neutral on Gay, whereas the stats guys should me neutral on Battier and hate Gay.
            My eyeballs never liked Gay and always have loved Memphis's defense.
            "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

            Comment


            • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

              Originally posted by Bball View Post
              Somewhere I think the point was lost long ago with people choosing sides without even knowing what the other side was saying.

              IOW... Troy Murphy was never the point. Just an example or analogy that popped up in the midst of a lot of other info. For some reason, you then got focused on Troy Murphy.
              The stat was originally brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think.

              But when the stat shows certain players considered to be bad excel in the stat . . . THEN the stat does not, never has, and has nothing to do with showing if a player is good or not.
              "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

              Comment


              • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                Originally posted by Bball View Post
                TS should simply confirm what you're seeing when you watch the game with any depth at all (which a coach should certainly fit that description and a casual fan who barely knows what the 3 point line is probably doesn't... ).
                Coach is a single human being. He can't watch every player every minute on the floor, nor are there enough assistant coaches to do so (and even if they were, they would all have different expertise and bias). There's only so much time a coach can spend watching film of his own players and still do his job of preparing for the next team. Statistics exist to help point out where problems or solutions lie because a coach is looking at the bigger picture or other aspects of the game. They also help to point out where an assistant has seen something the coach has not.

                We're all still a little traumatized by a previous coach who seemed to rely too much on statistics to evaluate his own players, but that doesn't mean they are somehow useless in that context.
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                  Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                  The stat was originally brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think.

                  But when the stat shows certain players considered to be bad excel in the stat . . . THEN the stat does not, never has, and has nothing to do with showing if a player is good or not.
                  Why not? Instead of completely dismissing the stat by pointing out an outlier, wouldn't it rather demand an explanation why the problem with the stat for the outlier applies to the player in question? Unless, of course, you're saying that Danny also only went after meaningless rebounds, stole others from his own players, played matador defense, and was really not the team leader in offense when he was playing. In which case, with all due respect, I'd suggest you get your eyes examined.
                  BillS

                  A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                  Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                  Comment


                  • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                    Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                    The stat was originally brought up to show Granger is a better player than perhaps some people think.
                    The stat was brought up to combat the claim that Granger is just a chucker. You know, using stats to combat the bias people have in their eyes. And then people started arguing against the stat, because it just can't be true that Danny is actually an efficient scorer, and just not a chucker.

                    Which is why this eyeball is the best argument is kinda loopy, because we are human and our biasness influences what we see. Numbers remove those bias, and give us cold hard numbers, that have no feelings about a situation.
                    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                    Comment


                    • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                      Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                      In the analogy, the guy who potentially gets the girl is the coach or GM. Larry Bird is the perfect example of the non-booking reading guy winning the "game."
                      And Daryl Morey is the guy who reads books. Both of them have been great for their teams which indicates that it isn't about using stats or not but it's about being smart. Both traditional and stat-based GMs can be dumb and bad at their job and both traditional and stat-based GMs can be smart and great at their job.
                      Originally posted by IrishPacer
                      Empty vessels make the most noise.

                      Comment


                      • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                        When I'm watching a game and I see a player take a quick, bad shot I guess I need to review advanced stats at halftime to really know that was a quick, bad shot. When the other team is making a run and we really need to stem the tide but instead waste a possession by being haphazard and forcing something rather than being situationally aware and working the clock for a better shot then I can't trust my eyes and need to review advanced stats after the game.
                        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                        ------

                        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                        -John Wooden

                        Comment


                        • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                          Originally posted by Bball View Post
                          When I'm watching a game and I see a player take a quick, bad shot I guess I need to review advanced stats at halftime to really know that was a quick, bad shot.
                          More strawmen I see.
                          Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

                          Comment


                          • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                            Originally posted by Eindar View Post
                            As the advance metrics go forward, especially with the SportsVue stuff, the stats are going to be able to do a much better job of quantifying this, because we will be able to see visual shot charts of all players when Roy Hibbert is on the floor vs. when he is off the floor, and the same for a guy like Troy Murphy. They're also tracking how much players move, and when, so you could presumably identify a player who breaks the offense and stops the flow because his teammates are moving less when he is on the floor.
                            Exactly. Statistical analysis is still growing and it was incomplete for years because they had not found a way to measure defense and effort. The SportsVU cameras and the Sloan Analytics Conference are breakthroughs in the right direction of measuring the impact of defense and other lesser analyzed data.

                            PS: By the way, Morey who has based a lot of his moves in analytics was the one that offered Asik his first big contract which indicates that some stat-based GMs DID have data that measured amazing defense.
                            Originally posted by IrishPacer
                            Empty vessels make the most noise.

                            Comment


                            • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                              Originally posted by McKeyFan View Post
                              But if you believe Troy Murphy is not helpful for winning basketball games, and someone brings you lots of positive stats on him to prove otherwise . . . then it's the opposite problem of the stat brandisher misinterpreting the stats. So it goes both ways. But I think you've already acknowledged that in other posts.
                              Except that advanced stats always indicated that Murphy is not that helpful for winning basketball games
                              Originally posted by IrishPacer
                              Empty vessels make the most noise.

                              Comment


                              • Re: True Shooting % Explained: Which is more important? A higher FG% or a higher TS%?

                                Originally posted by Bball View Post
                                When I'm watching a game and I see a player take a quick, bad shot I guess I need to review advanced stats at halftime to really know that was a quick, bad shot. When the other team is making a run and we really need to stem the tide but instead waste a possession by being haphazard and forcing something rather than being situationally aware and working the clock for a better shot then I can't trust my eyes and need to review advanced stats after the game.
                                And if I want to know who won the game but I wasn't able to watch it I'm SOL because I shouldn't use the numbers defined by who made more points.

                                See, I can do the same thing.

                                No one is saying stats are for everything. But they can help you in your thinking of whether that quick, bad shot was an anomaly (because the player makes most of his quick shots) or if it was usual (because the player doesn't make quick shots). Sitting a player in the habit of taking quick, bad shots is a good idea. Sitting one who took a shot that looked bad but was actually where he makes it most of the time is not a good idea.
                                BillS

                                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                                Comment

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