Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Should I find it telling...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Should I find it telling...

    Originally posted by dcpacersfan View Post
    Uh, no, not at all, did you read Putnam's post?

    I went to high school in Indianapolis but grew up in Shelbyville. Our old sectional was so much fun growing up because the smaller schools resented Shelbyville for being the most populated, wealthiest (but DEFINITELY not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination) town in Shelby County. Shelbyville had something to prove every year that we were better than the other little po-dunk towns in our county, and most of the time we did, but some years we didn't and oh my would we hear it from the smaller towns.
    Uh, maybe fun for you. Not so much for the kids from the smaller schools who knew that their only hope was to beat a huge school so that they could go on to lose to another huge school. Since it's story time, I went to Lutheran, population 260, and winning a sectional was a big, big deal. It was exciting, but that excitement was alway stamped down by the knowledge that no matter how hard we practiced, how hard we played, it was almost as likely that our parents would win the lottery as it was that we would win a state title in basketball.

    For a reference point, Lutheran still hasn't won a 1A state basketball title, but they made the final game last year, and I can guarantee you that there was much, much more excitement for that game than there was the time my sophomore year when we had a chance to lose in our sectional against Shelbyville.

    Single-class basketball was like an expression of conventional warfare. It was a fun way for towns to express their geographical rivalries without anyone getting hurt. Now, I don't even know or care who is in the Shelbyville Sectional, none of those teams bear any relevance to the athletes, students, or parents. How could you think it would therefore be more entertaining?
    More entertaining for those who should be emotionally invested in the game (players, students, parents), not 30-something men who really should have more important things to do than spend a Saturday evening in a gym watching teenagers play sports.


    Because everyone gets a trophy, right?
    Nope, only 3-5 teams per year, out of the hundreds of competing teams. This is far and away a different thing than a participation trophy or a league for 5-year-olds where they don't keep score.

    Apples and oranges.
    Give me one good reason why this is different. You wouldn't want your 105-lb son who is a great wrestler to have to wrestle someone who is 220 lbs, why should I want my kid to have to play against Greg Oden when there's no way a Greg Oden would play for any school that won't allow him to be seen by tons of College and NBA scouts? If you're going to try to argue that a school with 250 students is on a level playing field with a school that has 3000 and commensurate funding for equipment and training programs, we can just end this discussion now, because we're never, ever going to agree.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Should I find it telling...

      Originally posted by Eindar View Post

      we can just end this discussion now, because we're never, ever going to agree.
      Haha, no we're not, but just remember a few things.

      1.) It was not like Shelbyville was a powerhouse or the biggest school in the state. In 1995 (approximately) we had to play Ben Davis in the semi-state and we got crushed pretty badly. The general feeling among the fanbase was, however, that we'd rather get beat in the whole scheme of things than win some charity title. Depends how you want to approach the issue I guess.

      2.) And I don't get your Greg Oden example because there are always going to be 2 or 3 teams that are nearly impossible to beat whether or not there is a class system. My cousin played for 4A Center Grove and had to guard Oden in HS and was accordingly massacred just as badly as some kid from almost any other high school in the state would have. There are some 4A teams that have little to no chance of ever winning the 4A title, should we create another class for "disadvantaged" groups like underfunded schools or something so that they have a reasonable chance to win a title, too?

      3.) You make think people are losers for going to High School Basketball games but just remember that it is a big part of Indiana history and people have the right to root for and be fans of the sport.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Should I find it telling...

        So "they" destroyed an Indiana phenomenon to make the participants feel better. ?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Should I find it telling...

          Originally posted by dcpacersfan View Post
          Haha, no we're not, but just remember a few things.

          1.) It was not like Shelbyville was a powerhouse or the biggest school in the state. In 1995 (approximately) we had to play Ben Davis in the semi-state and we got crushed pretty badly. The general feeling among the fanbase was, however, that we'd rather get beat in the whole scheme of things than win some charity title. Depends how you want to approach the issue I guess.

          2.) And I don't get your Greg Oden example because there are always going to be 2 or 3 teams that are nearly impossible to beat whether or not there is a class system. My cousin played for 4A Center Grove and had to guard Oden in HS and was accordingly massacred just as badly as some kid from almost any other high school in the state would have. There are some 4A teams that have little to no chance of ever winning the 4A title, should we create another class for "disadvantaged" groups like underfunded schools or something so that they have a reasonable chance to win a title, too?

          3.) You make think people are losers for going to High School Basketball games but just remember that it is a big part of Indiana history and people have the right to root for and be fans of the sport.
          1.) See, we're viewing it from different perspectives. From my vantage point, Shelbyville was our Ben Davis. So, what does that make Ben Davis to us? Answer: not worth even thinking about. This is almost like our economy in a nutshell: the big schools get all the press, but the little schools make up more of the population.

          2.) I disagree on this point. Lutheran is a small school even for 1A, but it's only been about a decade, and we've already been to a championship game, despite having a weight room that is mediocre at best and a coaching staff that is shorthanded compared to most other schools.

          3.) Go ahead and root for the school and be a fan of the sport. The quality of the games hasn't changed. The teams that are in the 4A and 3A finals are generally the same teams that would have been the single-class final four. The only thing that is different is that fewer big schools get fewer cake-walk games on the way to the title.

          Virtually ever person I've spoken to who is in favor of single-class basketball went to a high school with over 1000 students. What's worse, these same people try to act like they're not wanting it for themselves, they're wanting it for all of these small schools. Guess what? The small schools (and those that play and have played for those small schools) prefer it this way. We don't want what you think we want. Sure, every well-coached team like Waldron is going to wonder how they would do against Lawrence North or Bloomington South, but I don't think they'd tradethe ability to win state titles within their division to find out.

          The best solution would be some sort of side tournament or even just a few games pitting some of the top teams in each class against each other. I'm sure the reason the haven't has to do with scheduling. But given the two options, class basketball does the most good for the most students and student athletes.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Should I find it telling...

            Originally posted by Hicks View Post
            So "they" destroyed an Indiana phenomenon to make the participants feel better. ?
            Is the purpose of High school basketball, and the IHSAA for that matter, to market itself and make money as a spectator sport, or to provide players and students an opportunity to show off their talents on a level playing field? That's really what this boils down to.

            These are kids, not professional athletes. The focus should be on providing students and student athletes with as exciting a product, for THEM, as possible. Not just for the top 2 1A schools who might be able to sneak into a semi-state, and certainly not for spectators who have no vested interest in the participants. If it was as bad as some of you make it out to be, the IHSAA would be losing money hand over fist and would have been forced to return to the old system, right? Clearly there is still interest enough to make the system viable, which is good enough for me.

            the NCAA tournament is a perfect format for you to follow a small school to their inevitable defeat in a basketball tournament setting. How about we make high school basketball about high school students, and not "fans"?

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Should I find it telling...

              Eindar, I wanted to argue with the points you made but when I'd thought about it a while I realized that you are right: "The quality of the games hasn't changed."

              The thing is, the quality of the tournament itself has changed utterly and changed for the worse.

              David the shepherd boy had no business going up against the Philistine champion, Goliath.

              A few hundred Spartans should never have even tried to block Thermopalae pass against the oncoming Persians.

              Col. Lettow-Voorbeck should have surrendered his troops at the start of WW1 to the vastly superior British East African corps.

              Steven Jobs should have looked in the mirror and thought, "I'm just a geek college kids. IBM is a giant corporation. If anybody is going to make computers, it's them."

              Reservoir Dogs, Eraserhead and any number of other independent films should never have been made. (Most of them should never have beem made because the directors didn't have the backing of a major studio. Eraserhead just shouldn't have been made. Yech!)

              Really great, unexpected things happen. Not often, but they do happen. It never happened to Lutheran and it never happened to Southern Wells. It never happened in our lifetimes. But it DID happen for Milan!

              Class basketball guarantees that it can never happen again.
              Last edited by Putnam; 03-31-2009, 01:13 PM.
              And I won't be here to see the day
              It all dries up and blows away
              I'd hang around just to see
              But they never had much use for me
              In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Should I find it telling...

                Originally posted by Eindar View Post
                Guess what? The small schools (and those that play and have played for those small schools) prefer it this way. We don't want what you think we want. Sure, every well-coached team like Waldron is going to wonder how they would do against Lawrence North or Bloomington South, but I don't think they'd tradethe ability to win state titles within their division to find out.
                I don't know about that, I have often heard the opposite, but I'm not accusing you of anything, either. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on most of the points but I understand your perspective much better through this exchange.

                I've always toyed with the idea of some sort of compromise system where Indiana High School basketball was basically a mirror of the NCAA, and teams could get bids into three different tournaments. That way the best small schools would have the ability to compete with larger schools that they could very well beat, while horrible 4A programs would actually have the chance to win something. Yes there would be a bit of controversy every year and there are flaws inherent in this system, but it would be interesting to say the least.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Should I find it telling...

                  Point two: I think the single-class system engendered plenty of interest. I was never just a fan of the tournament apart from teams I cared about. But in the old days there were ALWAYS teams I cared about.

                  In the sectional, I wanted my school to win. When it lost, as it always did, I wanted whatever team came out of our sectional to win in the Marion regional; unless it was Norwell, in which case I wanted them to get beaten by any other team except Marion. It was like that all the way to the end. There was always something personal about the games. There was always an underdog matchup. There was always North versus South. (How many of us learned Indiana geography from looking up schools on the map?) There was always a team that was in the tournament for the first time. There were so many story lines to the old tournament.

                  All that's gone.
                  And I won't be here to see the day
                  It all dries up and blows away
                  I'd hang around just to see
                  But they never had much use for me
                  In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Should I find it telling...

                    Originally posted by Eindar View Post
                    Is the purpose of High school basketball, and the IHSAA for that matter, to market itself and make money as a spectator sport, or to provide players and students an opportunity to show off their talents on a level playing field? That's really what this boils down to.
                    I very much agree with this. Was the old tournament a great thing to market, talk about, get media coverage for, etc.? Absolutely.

                    But how about the thousands of kids who could only hang their hats on a fleeting chance at making it out of regionals? Do those magical moments happen? Sure ... once every 10, 20, 30 years. And all the years in between?

                    Well, at least all the non-vested people got to watch a 'true' state tournament.

                    The problem I have with the Illinois class system is not that there are classes, but that there are too many. A big-school and small-school setup still had Carver Arena in Peoria pretty full, and little guys and mid-majors could still have a reasonable chance at making the state tournament.

                    Nowadays, the Class 1A and 3A finals are played in the early afternoon to a half-empty arena. I don't think that's what the magical moment anyone wants.

                    How would people feel about two-class basketball?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Should I find it telling...

                      The thing is, it wasn't "just" Regionals or "just" Sectionals before. They could take pride in those wins. Let's not pretend they all walked home with their tales tucked between their legs feeling ashamed.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Should I find it telling...

                        I really think the lack of overall enthusiasm has to do with football. It is just more popular.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Should I find it telling...

                          It doesn't matter...we're now multi class and they will never go back. We're screwed that way. (But to say that small schools want this is just WRONG)

                          We might as well accept Bobby Knight's words on situations like this. Except one thing, we don't get to enjoy it.
                          Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Should I find it telling...

                            Originally posted by Major Cold View Post
                            I really think the lack of overall enthusiasm has to do with football. It is just more popular.

                            Some have argued part of the reason for class basketball was to help level the playing field for other sports, like football.

                            IHSAA basketball was the 800lb gorilla in the room. It's not any longer.

                            -Bball
                            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                            ------

                            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                            -John Wooden

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Should I find it telling...

                              I believe if we chart the decline in HS basketball attendance we'll see it took a marked turn downward at the installation of class basketball. There may well have been some trends downward which could be blamed on lots of things, economy, DVD's, arcades, Nintendos, etc.... but those trends IMHO would be nothing compared to the downfall after class basketball came to be.
                              Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                              ------

                              "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                              -John Wooden

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Should I find it telling...

                                Single class basketball would be amazing, but at the same time, I don't think there would be another Milan miracle. Not when you have teams like LN, Pike, North Central, etc. running the show. Too much athleticism from the city teams. You might get a smaller school that has a chance every few years, but never a school as small as Milan.

                                I went to Brebeuf, so I was actually pretty lucky. We knew many of the teams we came up against in Sectionals and Regionals, and hated their guts (Danville, Lebanon, Chatard).

                                I also agree that it's easier to get a ticket to a game on game night, but you also have to remember that gyms are bigger now, and there are just flat out more high schools than there used to be. High school basketball is still king in Indiana. Maybe it isn't as big of a deal as it once was, but it is still much bigger than football. I've only been out of high school for three years, and I can vouch for that.


                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X