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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

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"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

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A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

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Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

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When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

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The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

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Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

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We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

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A Self Serving set of questions.....

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  • #1

    A Self Serving set of questions.....

    Questions for Pacer fans:
    fficeffice" />>>
    >>
    If the Pacers should fire Rick Carlisle who would be the best choice to replace him?
    >>
    How do you get rid of Jammal Tinsley and his over bloated contract?
    >>
    How do you transplant a heart into this team?
    >>
    How do you get the Golden State players to play with consistency?
    >>
    Why is Conseco not packed for games?
    >>
    Have the people condemning Tinsley and Daniels NEVER been in any type of trouble, or never broken ANY laws?
    >>
    Can Jermaine O’Neal actually take this team to an NBA championship?
    >>
    Why don’t top tier NBA free agents want to come play for the Pacers?
    >>
    Does Indianapolis deserve a pro-basketball franchise?
    >>
    While I wait for all your answers, I will give you DaSmash’s take on all of these important items, many answers are abriveated, I know you can all hardly wait.
    >>
    1) Rick Carlisle should not be fired. The pacers however do need to surround him with better assistant coaches. Chuck Person, Dan Burke and Johnny Davis are just not the answer, especially when you have big’s that don’t know how to defend their own basket. They also don’t understand weak side rotation. Once the season ends new assistants should be brought in to work on fundamentals that these guys lack. No choice other than to attend should be given to the player, regardless. Could we get Larry Brown back...Rick Adleman.....Kiefer Sutherland as Jack Bauer?
    >>
    2) Getting rid of Tinsley isn’t going to be easy. The Pacers have tried to move him for almost two years now. The reason Anthony Johnson was moved and not Tinsley was because of Tinsley’s malignant contract. This contract was given to him right after the team had just won 61 games and went to the Eastern Conference finals. Jammals mother had also just recently died. Just like Croshere the stars aligned perfectly and Donnie Walsh decided that Tinsley was their man. At the time all indications was that it was a good idea. Then Artest snapped, and Artest was the main reason Tinsley was effective. The only way Jammal goes is with a trade that includes either O’Neal or Foster. I look for all three of these players to be moved this summer, along with David Harrison, Keith McCloud and Masco Baston.
    >>
    3) The Indiana Pacers seem to want to play like this is playground basketball. There is no discipline. That discipline needs to come from the point guard. It just so happens that our point guard is totally playground NYC. The pacers need a point guard that can makes sparks happen. Players that hustle and look intense on the court usually are. Players that show no emotion, usually play without emotion. This Pacer team has NO LEADER, NO REAL EMOTION. Someone who gets in his fellow players grill and calls them out on the carpet, especially during games. No NBA player wants to be called out by his peers in the middle of the game…to bad it never happens here in Indiana anymore. HEART of any team should be from a common goal to achieve. The only thing this team wants to achieve is making the playoffs and going home after round 1.
    >>
    4) Getting Dunleavy, Diogu, Murphy and McCloud to play with winning consistency. Making a trade in the middle of a season changes identity and chemistry. The players coming in have known nothing but losing and more losing. While they each have decent skill sets, the culture and acceptance of losing has already been learned, it now has to be unlearned. Playing against their new teammates is way different then playing with them. This team is right about where it should be. A full training camp along with each player’s summer training schedule completed will help immensely.
    >>
    5) Win and they will come pouring into Conseco. Who in their right mind is going to pay an average of $50 to see a .500 team. The rule of thumb in the NBA is that a .500 team with a secondary professional franchise (Colts) will lose attendance, especially if the other franchise is a winner. Any town that has a winning franchise will just not tolerate .500 or just above for purely economical reasons. Those people that say they won’t go because the players are all thugs is either a bandwagon fan or is only making $25K a year and can’t afford it. Why pay to watch this team, have they given you a reason to come watch? Its more economical then anything.
    >>
    6) People should understand not to cast stones at glass houses, because more often then not they can surely see their own reflections in the glass. There is nobody that hasn’t either been speeding or caught speeding in their car. I’m sure many of you lie on your income taxes every year, and just because your not caught doesn't make it right.More importantly most of the adult Indiana Pacer fans that are males 21 to 35 do visit strip clubs at one point in time. Going to a strip club is not illegal, at least not in Indiana. The reason I use the 21 to 35 age group is because that is the age group with the most available cash that all NBA-NFL-MLB-Television networks and cable networks target. Second is the male gae group 35 to 50, Third is women 18 to 35. Major league teams don’t care what older fans think, many of whom are on a fixed income and don’t come to games in the first place. They usually watch at home on the TV, where the station has carefully placed sponsors commercials. Why is the prosecutors making such a big deal of this case? Does he think it will stop all bar room incidents if he gets convictions on both Tinsley and Daniels? Yeah the day that happens monkeys will fly out of Mr. Brizzis butt. Get real people, its not about making you safe in Bars, its about making someones career take a big upswing. By the way, how many of you have been to the 8 second saloon in the past year?

    7) Jermaine O’Neal will never take the Pacers anywhere past the Eastern Conference finals. For one having such a big paycheck, you would think he is on a venatalator when it comes to hitting shots that count during a game. When was the last time Jermaine hit a game winner? When was the last time he dominated the paint? When was the last time he played like a max paid player? Contrary to popular belief O’Neal is not having a career year. A career year means that you are winning with great stats, not losing with great stats. A career year means that your making players around you better, Who has Jermaine made better? Lets ask Carl Brizzi, he has all the answers.

    8) Top Free agents will never come to play here not only because of the weather in the winter, but because there is a state income tax. Not ever having enough money to pay them because of other players getting overpaid is another consideration. Is this a franchise problem? Yes, it’s an upper management problem. The player personal director (Bird) needs to be able to accurately judge talent. Look at what Bryan Colangelo has done in Toronto in one year and what Larry has done in 3. Taking care of players on the Pacers that contribute to winning is one thing, taking care of slow footed European players that can’t adapt to the NBA was another. Donnie Walsh is the CEO of the team. Larry Bird is in charge of the players. He has the task of keeping them in line and making them accountable on and off the floor. Ask yourself honestly, can Larry Legend do this job? Cutting loose Austin Croshere for Marquis Daniels is beginning to look promising, but signing Masco Baston and drafting Shawne Williams is looking very shakey especially when their were decent point guards available.

    9) Last but not least Indianapolis does deserve a pro basketball team. Certain people on this and other message boards sound like they want to change the name from “Pacers to Choirboys”. Complete with little halos above their heads. People just WON’t stand for the THUG behavior that Jeff Foster exhibits every game on the court. Or that Killer attitude that Jammal Tinsley and Marquis Daniels exhibit on the court. I just want to know when it became so important to know what these guys do when they’re not on the court. Why does it concern you? Has anyone EVER been falsely arrested and imprisoned, especially in the state of Indiana? Remember this is the state that sent Ray Charles to jail, yet we still elect a recent democratic president guilty of the same thing. A little self serving it seems, isn’t it?
    >>

    >Those are my guns and I reserve thr right to holster them or fire them.>
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

    If the Pacers should fire Rick Carlisle who would be the best choice to replace him? R. Adelman, Kareem

    How do you get rid of Jammal Tinsley and his over bloated contract? Good question. How much longer will IT be in NY?? As you said, it'll require a multi-player deal to rid us of him.

    How do you transplant a heart into this team? Bring in a coach that the players would walk thru fire for. Not certain that RA is that guy tho.

    How do you get the Golden State players to play with consistency? Surround them with better players that DO play with consistency. Our current crop cannot be relied upon to make the role players better. We need the core players to be consistent so the role players can relax and do what they do best.

    Why is Conseco not packed for games? Unemployment and 3 years of ugly publicity. Losing can be tolerated if the fans like the players on a personal level. Indianapolis fans do not like the core players. Even JO isn't seen as a "marketable" player.

    Have the people condemning Tinsley and Daniels NEVER been in any type of trouble, or never broken ANY laws? Well, I WAS arrested for reckless driving when I was 16 (dern horses)...but for the most part people view themselves as being "good" people and do not equate speeding with shootings and bar fights (that's more of a country music sorta person)

    Can Jermaine O?Neal actually take this team to an NBA championship? not IMPO. He can be a MAJOR part of a chmpionship team, but he can't lead anybody to anything.

    Why don?t top tier NBA free agents want to come play for the Pacers? Were you here for the blzzard and ice storms?? We have no beaches and not enough nite life.

    Does Indianapolis deserve a pro-basketball franchise? This question really doesn't need to be asked. We've proven ourselves over the last 40 years.
    Ever notice how friendly folks are at a shootin' range??.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

      I don't want Adelman. I would take a hard look at Marc Ivaroni

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

        Not sure if this would be legal, but could the Pacers give permission for Tinsley's agent to talk to the Hawks (who have no PG to speak of). The Pacers could offer JT a buyout, and then he could sign with the Hawks who are 5-6 million under the salary cap.

        True addition by subtraction.

        With no PG, we can then lock up the top 10 draft pick, since as awful as JT is, the backups are worse when their minutes are expanded.
        The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

          I'm game.
          >>
          >>
          If the Pacers should fire Rick Carlisle who would be the best choice to replace him?

          I don't think he should be replaced. But if he is, I dunno. Darrell Armstrong, I suppose.

           How do you get rid of Jammal Tinsley and his over bloated contract?

          I would a) try to package Tinsley with other players as a Trojan Horse in a bigger trade (a la Stephen Jackson), or b) trade him for a backup PG and/or a contract that expires in 1-2 years. I would go with Daniels at the PG spot teaming up with the PG we got/a PG picked up with the mid-level exception until the long term solution is found. If Daniels works out long term, great.

           How do you transplant a heart into this team?
          >>
          Change, followed by winning. The ghosts of the brawl hang over this franchise, and only two things will make it go away. Change and winning.

          How do you get the Golden State players to play with consistency?

          You don't. That's their MO. Unless you are a superstar scoring threat, consistancy is bred through defense. And these guys can't defend.

          Unless you mean Ike Diogu. Then he just needs time.           >>
          Why is Conseco not packed for games?

          A million reasons. Brawl, Rio, Reggie remorse, distaste for current players, lack of playoff success, the giant Colts shadow. But the main thing is the thrill factor. The Pacers are a machine. If you turned the scoreboard off and watch a 7 minute stretch of basketball, you often wouldn't be able to tell if the Pacers were winning or losing. Last secong miracles left with Reggie. It is extremely rare to see a Pacer bust out for 35+ points or to see the team slay a dragon with a double digit win against the Suns or the Mavs. It's always "Pacers win by five. JO had 22 and 10" or "Pacers lose by 7. JO had 21 and 9". When is the last time you walked into the office and said "Good lord! Did you see the Pacers game last night!"?           >>
          Have the people condemning Tinsley and Daniels NEVER been in any type of trouble, or never broken ANY laws?

          I don't care about the 8 seconds thing, but I've never even whiffed that kind of trouble. I'm no saint, but I'm smart enough to avoid those situations. But like I said, I don't care about that, and I still go to games.           >>
          Can Jermaine O’Neal actually take this team to an NBA championship?

          Can he carry us there like Jordan or Hakeem? No. Can he be a fixture on a title winning team? Sure.
           >>
          Why don’t top tier NBA free agents want to come play for the Pacers?

          Because the Pacers haven't had cap room in a decade.           >>
          Does Indianapolis deserve a pro-basketball franchise?

          What?
          The Miller Time Podcast on 8 Points, 9 Seconds:
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          Comment

          • #6
            Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

            [QUOTE=DaSMASH;Win and they will come pouring into Conseco. Who in their right mind is going to pay an average of $50 to see a .500 team. The rule of thumb in the NBA is that a .500 team with a secondary professional franchise (Colts) will lose attendance, especially if the other franchise is a winner. Any town that has a winning franchise will just not tolerate .500 or just above for purely economical reasons. Those people that say they won’t go because the players are all thugs is either a bandwagon fan or is only making $25K a year and can’t afford it. Why pay to watch this team, have they given you a reason to come watch? Its more economical then anything.
            [/QUOTE]

            Alot of good questions there Smash and at this point I just want to address the economical question.

            Heck yeah prices make a difference. I give the Ps credit for adjusting the balcony tickets to $4.00 dollars for many of their games. Good move and hopefully it is something they will consider next season as well. The problem is the better seats have went way up in price compared to what it use to be. And how can they ask for $50 bucks for ANY ticket in the balcony is beyond me.

            Tickets were a little more fan friendly and people could consider buying season tickets instead of singles like it has become.

            Listed below are the season tickets the Mrs. and I had during the late 80s.

            86/87 Our tickets were in section 15, row W, seat 101 and 102. They were $11 bucks each.

            88/89 Our tickets were in section 20, row L, seat 12 and 13. They were $18 bucks each.

            89/90 Our tickets were in section 10, row L, seat 7 and 8. They were $14 bucks each. (Loved these seats and a very affordable price.

            Fast foward to today. Looking at what would be comparable seats in Conseco would be in the $100 dollar range. I know we're talking over 20 years ago, but I can't believe prices should have risen at that rate.

            If they want to get back fans then NO balcony seat even if it is dead center half court should be over $20 bucks. Club level center court no higher than $50. And court level is debatable because that's business/entertainment dollars anyway.
            You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

              Bring in a coach that the players would walk thru fire for.
              Hmm, I've seen JO and Jeff this year, and I'd say for both of them it's some of their finest play yet. JO is doing more this year than he did for Zeke, who he admitted he liked quite a bit and saw as the guy who gave him his break.

              What former Pacer has shown more fire and drive away from RC as they did under him? Let me guess, Peja under Scott.

              Right after Jackson got done destroying the Pacers he went out of his way to find Rick and give him a healthy hug, not one of those quick pat "I used to know you" things.

              Tinsley has openly said he is was trying to play all 82 games this year and has at times toughed things out to play the game just to meet this goal.

              Army. I mean what part of hurt shoulder, diving on the floor, full-on crazy energy is Army not producing?


              I see plenty of effort. I see Dun and Murphy busting it too. I just see guys having trouble making it work.

              I could go 300 mph for 2 hours and still lose the Indy 500. All I'd have to do is drive the wrong direction.

              Downgrading talent from Artest down to Troy Murphy, and then Jack to Dun as well, has hurt the team's bottom line in the W-L column. Maybe it needed to be done, but in doing that fans needed to realize that the team wouldn't magically be better.


              And after 2 seasons of huge disruptions the players and mgmt have decided to throw in a couple of more this year.


              Remember the knock on Dungy. Couldn't win the big one, as "proven" when Gruden took his team to the title (aka Larry Brown). No one bothered to note that Gruden's old team, the Raiders, also went to the SB finally without Gruden.

              The other knock, as voiced by a "drunken" kicker - no fire, no passion, couldn't inspire the team to the next level. Everyone will deny it now, but much like I defend RC here, I was defending Dungy the last few years - especially after the PIT loss. Plenty of locals were talking about him never being able to do it (or Peyton either). It wasn't just a few crackpots.

              I don't think he should be replaced. But if he is, I dunno. Darrell Armstrong, I suppose.
              DA is really likeable, but there is one problem with using DA. He's ALREADY HERE and they aren't winning. He goes out on court and has an awful +/- session vs SAC even. His energy is inspirational and if he knows the Xs and Os enough to coach then you'd expect better results with him out there if that's all it was.

              I hope they keep DA around, but if he was a solution it would already be having some effect.

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              • #8
                Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                Questions for Pacer fans:
                fficeffice" />>>
                >>

                >>
                How do you transplant a heart into this team?
                >>
                This is the only question I want to answer. I've said something like this before, I'm sure.

                RC needs to run this more like a college or high school team. The motto needs to be "If you don't play hard, you don't play." Bench guys for lazy mistakes and the obvious lackluster attitude that this team has at times. I don't care if it's JO (though it's usually not) or Tins or Marquis or Murphy or Dunleavy or Granger. If they're not going to play hard, get them off the floor. Give them another chance a few minutes later, and if it's no better then do the same thing again. I'll leave with a quote.

                I'm not sure who it was that said this, I think it was Bill Walsh. He was asked how to motivate players to win. His answer was something like, "You get players you don't need to motivate."
                "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

                - Salman Rushdie

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                • #9
                  Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                  Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                  Remember the knock on Dungy. Couldn't win the big one, as "proven" when Gruden took his team to the title (aka Larry Brown). No one bothered to note that Gruden's old team, the Raiders, also went to the SB finally without Gruden.

                  The other knock, as voiced by a "drunken" kicker - no fire, no passion, couldn't inspire the team to the next level. Everyone will deny it now, but much like I defend RC here, I was defending Dungy the last few years - especially after the PIT loss. Plenty of locals were talking about him never being able to do it (or Peyton either). It wasn't just a few crackpots.

                  That's an excellent point.


                  Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                  DA is really likeable, but there is one problem with using DA. He's ALREADY HERE and they aren't winning. He goes out on court and has an awful +/- session vs SAC even. His energy is inspirational and if he knows the Xs and Os enough to coach then you'd expect better results with him out there if that's all it was.

                  I hope they keep DA around, but if he was a solution it would already be having some effect.

                  Yeah, I was just pulling a name out of my *** to answer the question. But I absolutely think Carlisle should stay.
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                  • #10
                    Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    Hmm, I've seen JO and Jeff this year, and I'd say for both of them it's some of their finest play yet. JO is doing more this year than he did for Zeke, who he admitted he liked quite a bit and saw as the guy who gave him his break.

                    What former Pacer has shown more fire and drive away from RC as they did under him? Let me guess, Peja under Scott.
                    I think both Al and Stephen have, just by watching all the GS games. Plus you have the quotes about both of them feeling free and one of them having the most fun with basketball they've had. Let's just say it doesn't lessen the fire to play for the coach.

                    That's about it though, and it's hard to judge most because they aren't getting the playing time they got with Rick. Not sure about Ron, Peja, etc.


                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    I see plenty of effort. I see Dun and Murphy busting it too. I just see guys having trouble making it work.

                    I could go 300 mph for 2 hours and still lose the Indy 500. All I'd have to do is drive the wrong direction.

                    Downgrading talent from Artest down to Troy Murphy, and then Jack to Dun as well, has hurt the team's bottom line in the W-L column. Maybe it needed to be done, but in doing that fans needed to realize that the team wouldn't magically be better.
                    They are downgrades in some key areas, but I don't think our losses are a result of Murphy/Dunleavy being here or Al/Stephen being gone. I think we were heading that direction prior to the trade and now it's magnified because we aren't even contesting shots. It's not like DunMurph aren't fast enough to get to their man. Plus they make the offense better (though Jermaine's play hasn't been as good). We just lack effort and energy. I'd say putting a hand up on defense is a great start.

                    A huge part of me wants to agree with the original post. I think Rick doesn't have a good group of assistants and I've been saying that all season. But even if you get a Dick Harter/Jim Cleamons/etc., that won't fix the players tuning Rick out (see MagicRat thread). Unless Rick's willing to use the Larry Bird school of coaching, we might be in some trouble.


                    Originally posted by DaSmash
                    2) Getting rid of Tinsley isn’t going to be easy. The Pacers have tried to move him for almost two years now. The reason Anthony Johnson was moved and not Tinsley was because of Tinsley’s malignant contract. This contract was given to him right after the team had just won 61 games and went to the Eastern Conference finals. Jammals mother had also just recently died. Just like Croshere the stars aligned perfectly and Donnie Walsh decided that Tinsley was their man. At the time all indications was that it was a good idea. Then Artest snapped, and Artest was the main reason Tinsley was effective. The only way Jammal goes is with a trade that includes either O’Neal or Foster. I look for all three of these players to be moved this summer, along with David Harrison, Keith McCloud and Masco Baston.
                    FWIW, Tinsley's mother didn't die that year. I think she died a couple of years earlier; the same year that Jermaine's stepfather got shot and Ron had behavioral problems (fight with Riley, etc.). Plus I doubt Walsh would give a sympathy contract, plus I don't think Tinsley's contract is that bad. The major knock on him up until this year was that he's injury prone, but he's a contract that other teams would easiliy take on. The only reason we kept him over Johnson is because management is wooed by his talent.

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                    • #11
                      Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                      If we could get some coach to replace Rick I'd like it to be Mark Jackson, but he's always said he would only consider it if the "right situation" came up and I doubt coaching a team that could care less and screwed in cap space really ins't all that appealing. I think he'd be able to relate to the players alot better than Rick ever could and instill some effor into this team. I don't even mind the formula that Bird used when he was around let the coach be the one to call the shots, someone to handle the x's and o's on offense a defensive minded assistant coach as well, and add a big man coach. I don't understand why that's not an option. I would love to have listened in on the interview process for the head coaching position when rick was brought in. Here's a question does anybody remember who else other than Rick was interested for the head coaching position or was it just like Bird said we're gonna have Rick as our coach and that's that? I don't remember the situation very well it's very fuzzy.

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                      • #12
                        Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                        I've been thinking a lot about Mark Jackson, simply because he's a guy that's interested in coaching, has Indiana ties, and has a decent chance (imo) of getting along with players.

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                        • #13
                          Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                          Originally posted by imawhat View Post
                          I've been thinking a lot about Mark Jackson, simply because he's a guy that's interested in coaching, has Indiana ties, and has a decent chance (imo) of getting along with players.
                          Speaking of Mark Jackson I loved the stories how Mark and Reggie would talk basketball by phone sometimes at 3 in the morning. What would you wager that's probably not taking place with this current team?
                          You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                          • #14
                            Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            If the Pacers should fire Rick Carlisle who would be the best choice to replace him?
                            At this season.....Larry Bird.....partly for PR purposes.....partly to get a coach in place the Players respect...but mainly to shake things up. Beyond this season...whoever is the best defensive coach available....as to who...I have no clue.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            How do you get rid of Jammal Tinsley and his over bloated contract?
                            Package him with Foster ( first ), if there are no takers...package him with Shawne ( second ), if there are still no takers...package him with Granger ( third ), if there are no takers....package him with JONeal ( as an absolute last resort if getting rid of him is an ABSOLUTE MUST DO ). If the rumor is that TPTB have been trying to move him since summer......then its likely that no GM will simply take him without getting something back in return....like a young prospect or a solid player like Foster. But given his track record.....risky PG that has good court vision but is a poor shooter, has been injury prone in the past, turns the ball over and make mistakes....the reality is that he won't be moved by himself.....or with a fringe player like Baston, Rawle or Harrison ( cuz if he could be, he would have already been moved with them ). I think that it will take a package along the lines of Granger or JONeal to move him. I'm not saying that I want to move JONeal....I'm saying that I think that it will have to go that far in order to move Tinsley. Also....the second he starts playing under a different coach...I wouldn't be surprised if we see a more consistent Tinsley that plays within his game ( passes more and shoots 12 FGA a game ) instead of outside of his game ( shoots up to 16 FGA per game and passes less ).

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            How do you transplant a heart into this team?
                            Ask the Wizard of Oz First....then if that doesn't work...I have no clue. Get a new coach that every one would listen to?

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            How do you get the Golden State players to play with consistency?
                            Don't make them 2nd/3rd scoring options unless we are forced to ( or have a hot hand )....as far as I am concerned they should be counted to be used as 4th scoring options ( first ) and 3rd scoring options ( second ) while taking about 8 to 12 FGA a game depending on the matchup....unless we are playing a seriously defensively deficient team that can't guard a lamp-post ( and therefore Dunleavy and Murphy can get their shots off without a problem ). At least for Dunleavy....given our severe lack of depth at the Guard spots....there may not be too much that we can do other then playing him more as a SF then be used as a SG. However, there may not be too much that we can do....we have been often forced to push both of them up the Scoring option ladder since Marquis has missed 8 games out of 16 ever since the trade.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            Why is Conseco not packed for games?
                            Its harder for me to really give an answer since I cannot attend games....but from an "out of state" Pacer fan.....I think that the bad PR and drama over the last 3 seasons have taken a serious toll on the fans and have turned many of them off. On top of that....the product that they are marketing has not been consistent enough this season to stop the die-hard season ticket holder fans from booing the team when they are playing horribly.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            Have the people condemning Tinsley and Daniels NEVER been in any type of trouble, or never broken ANY laws?
                            Given our history of drama over the last 3 seasons....I think that any "slightly negative" publicity translates immediately into "Another Pacer has done something bad" in the media.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            Can Jermaine O?Neal actually take this team to an NBA championship?
                            Sadly No....I don't think that its his fault either...I just think that he has Kevin Garnett Syndrome....the best supporting cast that he had years ago imploded in the ECF...and ever since then....nothing has worked right...for one reason or another.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            Why don?t top tier NBA free agents want to come play for the Pacers?
                            Cuz we aren't championship material and/or don't have the Salary cap to truly woo any top tier Free Agent.

                            Originally posted by DaSMASH View Post
                            Does Indianapolis deserve a pro-basketball franchise?
                            Yes......cuz Indiana is Basketball Country. But if you ask...do they deserve this Basketball Franchise? Nope...they deserve better.
                            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                            • #15
                              Re: A Self Serving set of questions.....

                              I don't think there's any question as to who should have been gone from the beginning of the season. There are a number of coaches who could find ways to win with this lineup, regardless of off court behavior. Last I checked no-one's been suspended or gone to prison....

                              Jamaal Tinsley
                              Stephen Jackson
                              Danny Granger
                              Al Harrington
                              Jermaine O'Neal
                              Darrell Armstrong
                              Marquis Daniels
                              Jeff Foster

                              Jamaal Tinsley's contract is lengthy but not "over bloated". As long as there are people like Jared Jefferies, Eric Snow, Mike Dunleavy, Speedy Claxton, Antonio Daniels, Brian Cardinal, Bobby Jackson, Marko Jaric, Troy Hudson, Raef Lafrentz, Derek Fisher, Chris Kaman and John Salmons in the league I will not complain about Tinsley's contract. If the Pacers wanted to move him they would have by now. His contract isn't daunting. If I was paying any of those guys I listed above, I'd trade for Tinsley...too bad the Pacers would have to throw in more players to meet the CBA.

                              You change the coach. The team doesn't respond to Carlisle. In fact outside of his first year here none of the three rosters he's had have responded to him.

                              The Golden State players (ie Mike & Troy) should come off the bench. Their inconsistency wont have the same effect it does now. Marquis and Jeff should be starting.

                              Conseco isn't packed for games because the Pacers have been mediocre six out of the last seven seasons. Meanwhile, the Colts have been an elite team. Reggie Miller retired. There is no emotional conection with any of the players on this team. The constant roster turnover. There have been off court issues, which keep the teams name in the papers for all the wrong reasons. Instead of talking about how well Danny Granger has progressed, talk shows, columnists and management have been talking about innocence and guilty.

                              I have never been in any trouble with the law. I haven't been caught. I don't care what they do. If somebody's getting suspended or going to prison then I'll care.

                              JO could take this team to the finals if he'd become more of a team player. He's selfish offensively. Jermaine should gets his shots within the flow like everybody else. I think Tinsley proved that anyone can score 25 a night if you put up enough shots.

                              The Pacers have been cap strapped for the last few years. Indianapolis didn't get the nicknames "Naptown" and "Indianoplace" as part of a campaign to lure free agents. Although, the Colts don't seem to have trouble finding guys when they need them. I don't think alot of players would like to step into a situation where players are begging to get out and then telling everyone they know how much it sucked to play for Carlisle.

                              Does Oklahoma City? Does L.A. deserve two? Should Hockey be played in warm weather cities? Who cares who deserves a team, we have one.
                              I'm in these bands
                              The Humans
                              Dr. Goldfoot
                              The Bar Brawlers
                              ME

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