Postgame: Pacers beat the Magic

[Putnam]

Originally Posted by AesopRockOn

Notice that in answering the question about being on this recent tear and having a ton of confidence from different guys, the coach isn't mentioned at all. This would indicate that Roy has pretty much tuned him out.

I notice you didn't mention Hicks and the other administrators in this post. This would indicate that you think they are doing a bad job of maintaining this forum.

For that matter, I'm not mentioning the five-game win streak in this post, which would indicate . . . oh, never mind.

You may be right that some players, including Hibbert, aren't fired up about O'Brien. I don't know. But not mentioning the coach in answer to a question that wasn't about the coach doesn't say anything about how he feels about the coach.

[BillS]

So many things to talk about.

A bit of a scare on the first couple of possessions by AJ when he tried to do the TJ Ford "drive to the basket like it's 5-on-1". I recall yelling that just because he has a J in his name doesn't mean he has to play like that. He stopped. Coincidence? Of course.

I think this is a classic example of a favorable matchup that we finally took advantage of. As I recall in the last Magic game it looked like they had no real answer for Roy and it was the typical foul-and-to-the-bench situation that kept us from exploiting it.

In the after-discussion last night there was a lot of jawing about "what is wrong with Dun". I still believe it is NOT a physical issue with his knee. I made a point last night of watching his legs when he lifted for shots, and I didn't see any unusual movement nor did I see him favor the knees after coming down. I also see him moving without the ball and not losing any kind of a step, while I actually think he has been better this year at moving with his man on defense. Having had 15 (not 17, I remembered wrong at the game) against the T-Wolves shows that he CAN still have a decent night, then a back-to-back knocks it completely out.

Because of this, I think general conditioning has a lot to do with it (he has all but been off the court unable to do anything resembling game conditioning for all but two of the last 10 months or more). Someone (unfortunately I don't remember who, might have been Hicks) talked about it being more of a confidence level, not really trusting his knees to not give out again. I would go with that.

Speaking of defense, the one thing that really stood out for me was that we relied more on the man-to-man defense with good timing on the help when needed, unlike previous games where the help comes either too early or (with TJ a major culprit) when unnecessary for anything other than trying to harass the ball. We also were successful challenging shots early, which kept the Magic from getting into rhythm shooting jumpers.

Overall, a lot of positives.

Regarding the whole "this is just like the win streak", I think it has become clear that there is a style of play that most of the players are comfortable with that Troy and TJ, for different reasons, don't seem to fit into. In some cases that is the fault of JOB who tried to use them that way for so long, in others it is the fault of the player for not being able to adjust to the rest of the players on the floor. I wholeheartedly believe this is what Dahntay was referring to in his comments. I also believe this style has its flaws (if we can't get the ball into the paint we just don't have a consistent outside attack, for example), and therefore (as we have seen) is just as capable of losing badly as the "other" player combination. In the final analysis, though, it is more uniform in its chemistry and (because of that) is more fun to watch.

[McKeyFan]

Originally Posted by BillS

I think this is a classic example of a favorable matchup that we finally took advantage of. As I recall in the last Magic game it looked like they had no real answer for Roy and it was the typical foul-and-to-the-bench situation that kept us from exploiting it.

Did Troy play in that game? Any credence to the suggestions around here that Roy's foul troubles are somewhat related to having to bail out Troy so much?

Originally Posted by BillS

In the after-discussion last night there was a lot of jawing about "what is wrong with Dun". I still believe it is NOT a physical issue with his knee. I made a point last night of watching his legs when he lifted for shots, and I didn't see any unusual movement nor did I see him favor the knees after coming down. I also see him moving without the ball and not losing any kind of a step, while I actually think he has been better this year at moving with his man on defense. Having had 15 (not 17, I remembered wrong at the game) against the T-Wolves shows that he CAN still have a decent night, then a back-to-back knocks it completely out.

Because of this, I think general conditioning has a lot to do with it (he has all but been off the court unable to do anything resembling game conditioning for all but two of the last 10 months or more). Someone (unfortunately I don't remember who, might have been Hicks) talked about it being more of a confidence level, not really trusting his knees to not give out again. I would go with that.

I appreciate you tackling this, and noticing how bad it is. But the general conditioning thing breaks down for me in the fact that he is making stupid turnovers and airballing and screwing up as soon as the game starts.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.

Originally Posted by BillS

Regarding the whole "this is just like the win streak", I think it has become clear that there is a style of play that most of the players are comfortable with that Troy and TJ, for different reasons, don't seem to fit into. In some cases that is the fault of JOB who tried to use them that way for so long, in others it is the fault of the player for not being able to adjust to the rest of the players on the floor. I wholeheartedly believe this is what Dahntay was referring to in his comments. I also believe this style has its flaws (if we can't get the ball into the paint we just don't have a consistent outside attack, for example), and therefore (as we have seen) is just as capable of losing badly as the "other" player combination. In the final analysis, though, it is more uniform in its chemistry and (because of that) is more fun to watch.

Good word.

I might note that when Tyler gets back we'll have another low post option besides Troy to make the "Win Streak System" work.

[Hicks]

Admittedly, Roy was also allowed to foul sometimes without a whistle being blown (for whatever reason). That bears mentioning.

[BillS]

Originally Posted by McKeyFan

Did Troy play in that game? Any credence to the suggestions around here that Roy's foul troubles are somewhat related to having to bail out Troy so much?

Not only Troy. I didn't start watching until the last few TJ games but TJ leaves his man to harrass the ball so often it is like playing 4-on-5. I suspect TJ's man drove the lane as often as Troy's.

And let's not fail to note that - as I've often said - Roy forgets how big he is and tries to play like a little guy defending a big guy too often. He jumps in the air, he slaps at the ball when his hands are up - he still makes an awful lot of silly fouls on his own. He's getting better, but usually you chalk up at least 2 fouls per game to playing small like that.

Originally Posted by McKeyFan

I appreciate you tackling this, and noticing how bad it is. But the general conditioning thing breaks down for me in the fact that he is making stupid turnovers and airballing and screwing up as soon as the game starts.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.

Definitely understand what you are saying, and I know that's a big part of a lot of people's arguments. If I remember correctly - and I have no film to review - one of the games in question was Atlanta, where the Hawks were forcing turnovers on everyone by cutting off passing lanes and preventing Pacers from moving into position. In another of the games I remember a couple of the turnovers coming when Dun wasn't set right as he tried to stop and pass, he slipped a bit. I'm not yet convinced those aren't isolated instances, but I'm willing to keep my eye on them. All I can say is that passing and ball handling require concentration that flags when fatigued, just like shooting. The explanation given by many - that Dun is p***ed off that he might get traded so simply doesn't care any more - needs a heck of a lot more than anecdotal "well it looks like" for me to accept it, since he has shown zero sign of being that kind of player in the past.

[McKeyFan]

Originally Posted by BillS

The explanation given by many - that Dun is p***ed off that he might get traded so simply doesn't care any more - needs a heck of a lot more than anecdotal "well it looks like" for me to accept it, since he has shown zero sign of being that kind of player in the past.

Agreed. He doesn't have the character or history.

I keep wondering if he is somehow impaired, affecting his coordination. It's really weird.

[pwee31]

Originally Posted by Hicks

Admittedly, Roy was also allowed to foul sometimes without a whistle being blown (for whatever reason). That bears mentioning.

I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come

[Hicks]

I was sitting pretty close last night in the LL (row 16) at a diagonal angle, and I know I saw him get someone on the arm with no call, and that's primarily what I have in mind, but other times he was bumping people in ways that a lot of refs will call that.

[CableKC]

Originally Posted by pwee31

I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come

IMHO, when Hibbert is guarding someone inside the paint whose trying to get position to score.....Hibbert is so long that he doesn't even have to jump at all.....he can plant his feet, raise his hands in the air and do as good of a job of altering a shot ( while not risking getting called on a foul ) as he would if he tried jumping in the air.

[count55]

Originally Posted by pwee31

I personally think he learned to jump straight up, with his arms straight up.

A lot of his fouls are due to opposing players jumping into him, and Roy jumps straight up, but would bring his arms down still attempting to block a shot in the process.

Last night he seemed to be happy with just jumping straight up, arms in the air, and altering the shot instead of trying to block them.

Perhaps the refs were easy on him, but hopefully it's a sign of things to come

O'Brien has talked about this a lot. He says that prior to coming to the NBA, Hibbert was basically taught that the best way to maximize his size was to basically make himself as big as possible. The meant standing as straight as possible and reaching for the skies.

That works fine in college, but doing that in the NBA just makes you less mobile. A whole bunch of players will either go around or over you. What they've been working with him on is creating a lower base for movement. Give up a little of the standing height, in exchange for some lateral mobility and more upward explosion. He's gotten better at it, but he's still a ways off.

Another thing with Roy is that I think his mind outraces his body. This is a problem that usually happens with older players, but I think it fits here. An older player can still see the play, and knows where and what to do, but his body can't get there fast enough any more. I think the same is true with Roy. He can see the play, but his body can't get him there.

It's my opinion that this will improve over time as he adapts to the speed of the players, and, perhaps more importantly, learns to gauge what he can and can't do, depending on the player and the situation.

[Alabama-Redneck]

Originally Posted by McKeyFan

.

It seems like he's the one with vertigo, not Tyler.

.

I have noticed that on several occasions MDJ has slipped or fell as if he is "favoring" something or he just does not have good balance.

I don't know what the problem is but I think there is a problem. I don't remember him doing this before the surgery.

Since I have had a mild case of vertigo for several years, I know the feeling. I take medication when it becomes bad.

People have told me for years that I was a little "off-balance" but what do they know.

[Since86]

As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.

[McKeyFan]

Originally Posted by Since86

As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.

I can accept that.

It just seems weird that his first three or four games were excellent. Than he became suddenly awful.

[count55]

Check out Dukie's Debut on 8p9s

Nice Work, Duke.

[Bball]

Originally Posted by Hicks

I was sitting pretty close last night in the LL (row 16) at a diagonal angle, and I know I saw him get someone on the arm with no call, and that's primarily what I have in mind, but other times he was bumping people in ways that a lot of refs will call that.

In the WWE many times a competitor will bend or break the rules such as picking up a chair to El Kabong the other wrestler and the ref will pretend to get distracted and not see it in order to make the match more competitive and especially entertaining for the fans....


Is there a moral here for us?

I hope not...

[dryley]

A funny thing about last nights game...(at least to me).. Although I was enjoying the game, it never even entered my mind that we would win until about 3 minutes to go. I just thought we would give it a good hard effort, then lose in the 4th.
Great win for the guys!

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by Since86

As far as MDJ, you can't forget that he's pretty much retraining his body. For years and years he's had issues with his knee. Your body compensates for it. Now, he's working with two healthy knees, maybe not 100% healthy but a lot more healthy than it's been, and the rest of his body is adjusting back to how it should.

There are so many factors going on with him that it's way too simple to narrow it down to one or two. He really shouldn't be evaluated until next year.

Fair enough.

If that's the case, though, I'd hope that once Granger comes back Mike would play from the bench for the rest of the year.

If he's not yet ready to be evaluated, then he's not yet ready to be depended on.

[AesopRockOn]

Originally Posted by Putnam

I notice you didn't mention Hicks and the other administrators in this post. This would indicate that you think they are doing a bad job of maintaining this forum.

I can't tell if you're being goofy or you really think that analogy makes any sense.

Originally Posted by Putnam

You may be right that some players, including Hibbert, aren't fired up about O'Brien. I don't know. But not mentioning the coach in answer to a question that wasn't about the coach doesn't say anything about how he feels about the coach.

The question was: "What's clicking for you right now that wasn't before?" You're right. It wasn't a question about the coach. But it was just as much a question about the coach as it was about the players he mentions in his response.

Originally Posted by Roy Hibbert

You know, just the guys before the game, the older guys, Dahntay, Earl and Luther. They have a lot of confidence in me. They tell me that when I get the ball to be aggressive from the start. They tell me that we've got to go inside-out. You know, sometimes we shoot a lot of threes, but I think things are changing right now. And we're going to start going inside out and and I'm going to try to be a good passer and find players out on the perimeter to hit shots once they start double teaming me. I think that to be an all around good player in this league...I want to be the total package one day.

I really do think that it matters that, when a young player is talking about the most important motivating factors for strong performance, he mentions three veteran players (DJ, EW, and LH) but not the (supposed to be) most veteran presence on the team. I do not particularly like our coach right now; I acknowledge that there isn't a whole lot that can be done at this point in the season. I simply observed that JOB doesn't seem to be in Roy's mind in terms of the people who give him confidence; after all, the person choosing to give him more minutes (injuries and all) is Jim. My question was just considering whether other players had similar mindsets. My interest currently is in the players' mindsets, not our lame duck of a coach. Hope this cleared that up.

[Kemo]

Originally Posted by IndyProdigy

i can vouch for this. theres also the others....

"Slowest player ive ever seen"

"will never amount to anything"

"awful pick by bird"

"he cant block shots"

"hes too heavy, he needs to lose weight"

he must read all this criticism. so thank you members of PD for inspiring him.

I recall him being called a "bum" as well..
Which BTW REALLY ticked me off..
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