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Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

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  • #76
    Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
    So apparently all of our big men are terrible rebounders yet we somehow still manage to be one of the top rebounding teams in the league.
    IMHO, Overall.....I think the Pacers was a solid but not one of the top Rebounding Teams in the League.....but got progressively worse as the season progressed into the Playoffs.

    Overall Season - 4th in Defensive Rebounding, 11th in Overall Rebounding but 23rd in Offensive Rebounding.
    Post ASB - 10th in Defensive Rebounding, 19th in Overall Rebounding but 26th in Offensive Rebounding.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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    • #77
      Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

      Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
      Anyone think these bigs spend their time blocking out? No...they control the paint and that's why they are the best in the league.
      Actually, yes. Robin Lopez always blocks out and he is the the main reason why LMA's rebounding average went up from 9.1 to 11.1.

      Take a look at this list, my friend -> http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingR...E*20**REB*GE*6

      Thanks to the data that the SportsVU cameras provide we can finally measure an extremely important statistic. Contested rebounding percentage. Contested rebounding percentage is exactly what it says on the tin. It measures the amount of contested rebounds a player grabs compared to his total rebounds.

      Robin Lopez is at the top of this list. In fact, he is the only player in the league that grabbed more contested rebounds than uncontested ones. 51% of his total rebounds were contested ones. What does that indicate? It indicates that Robin Lopez spent most of his time blocking out than trying to grab easy, uncontested rebounds. Robin would allow LMA to go and get the uncontested rebound and would simply box out and grab the rebound that came his way.

      The full top 10 when it comes to contested rebounding % is the following:

      1) Robin Lopez: 51%

      2) Enes Kanter: 50%

      3) Zaza Pachulia: 47.6%

      4) Nikola Pekovic: 47.5%

      5) Roy Hibbert: 47.4%

      6) Andre Drummond: 45.8%

      7) Jared Sullinger: 45.8%

      8) Amir Johnson: 45.5%

      9) Greg Monroe: 44.2%

      10) Serge Ibaka: 44%

      You will notice something about this top 10. Andre Drummond and Serge Ibaka are the only really athletic players in that list. Why is that? Because the Centers that lack explosive athleticism (quickness, vertical leap etc.) are ordered by their coaches to block out instead of attacking the ball since that raises their team's probability of grabbing the rebound.

      Why are Andre Drummond and Serge Ibaka on that list even though they are really athletic, you ask? There is an answer for that as well.

      When it comes to Drummond it's really quite simple. He is an absolute monster on the boards. He will grab every rebound that is in his vicinity no matter if it's a contested or an uncontested one. He is one of the guys that you simply tell "go get the ball" and he'll do it. He is the league's best rebounder by far, in my opinion.

      When it comes to Ibaka the answer is different. His main job is to block out the opponent's best rebounder in order for Durant to grab the uncontested rebound. If you sort the above list according to the lowest contested rebounding percentage then you will see Kevin Durant's name at the top. Only 22.2% of Durant's total rebounds were contested ones. The rest were uncontested rebounds. Ibaka and the other bigs (Perkins, Adams, Collison, it depends) would block out the opposing bigs and Kevin Durant would swoop in, grab the rebound and bring the ball up. It's a very logical thing to do when you have big, athletic wings that also act as your main ball-handler.

      The top 10 of that list according to the lowest contested rebounding percentage is the following:

      1) Kevin Durant: 22.2%

      2) Paul George: 22.6%

      3) Trevor Ariza: 23.7%

      4) Nicolas Batum: 23.9%

      5) Lance Stephenson: 24.7%

      6) LeBron James: 24.8%

      7) LaMarcus Aldridge: 27.4%

      8) Kevin Garnett: 27.9%

      9) Carmelo Anthony: 28.3%

      10) Carlos Boozer: 29.3%

      Are you surprised by the inclusion of 2 Pacer players in the top 5 of that list? You really shouldn't be.

      What I was describing about OKC above stands for the Pacers as well. The only difference is that in our case both Lance and PG were told to swoop in, grab the rebound and bring the ball up. Miami was doing a similar thing as well. Their bigs (Bosh, Haslem, Andersen, Battier) would block out and LeBron would swoop in, clear the board and play point forward.

      In general, this is how wings can post big rebounding numbers. None of the wings that rebound a lot spent their time in the post battling other bigs for rebounding position. Most of them depend on their bigs to block out the opposition's best offensive rebounder and grab mostly uncontested boards in order to bring the ball up and set up their team's offense quickly.
      Originally posted by IrishPacer
      Empty vessels make the most noise.

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      • #78
        Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

        If Roy were getting paid what Robin Lopez does, prob would not be much reason for concern when it comes to Roys rebounding numbers but the fact is he has a 15 Million Salary and does nothing exceptionally well except provide verticality on defense.

        Stats can be very deceiving and should be taken with a grain of salt. However, these #s look about right for Roy. He is 76th in the nba per 48 at rebounding.

        http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ounds/count/41



        I dont have anything bad to say about Roy as a person, in fact quite the contrary, he seems like a really solid dude for a millionaire. But in all honesty just because he plays for the the pacers doesnt mean his *** should be kissed and told it smells like roses when clearly thats just not the case.

        Yes, Roy is a bad rebounder at a price tag of 15 Million a season. Simply never a valid excuse for a 7'2 15Million dollar center to go multiple games without recording one single rebound.


        Roys just way overpaid.. thats really the only knock i have on him at this point. Suffice to say,, i dont believe anyone claiming Roy to be an above average rebounder is going to be comparing his numbers with Joahkim Noahs anytime soon this thread.

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        • #79
          Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

          Originally posted by PacersPride View Post
          If Roy were getting paid what Robin Lopez does, prob would not be much reason for concern when it comes to Roys rebounding numbers but the fact is he has a 15 Million Salary and does nothing exceptionally well except provide verticality on defense.

          Stats can be very deceiving and should be taken with a grain of salt. However, these #s look about right for Roy. He is 76th in the nba per 48 at rebounding.

          http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/pl...ounds/count/41



          I dont have anything bad to say about Roy as a person, in fact quite the contrary, he seems like a really solid dude for a millionaire. But in all honesty just because he plays for the the pacers doesnt mean his *** should be kissed and told it smells like roses when clearly thats just not the case.

          Yes, Roy is a bad rebounder at a price tag of 15 Million a season. Simply never a valid excuse for a 7'2 15Million dollar center to go multiple games without recording one single rebound.


          Roys just way overpaid.. thats really the only knock i have on him at this point. Suffice to say,, i dont believe anyone claiming Roy to be an above average rebounder is going to be comparing his numbers with Joahkim Noahs anytime soon this thread.
          There are several reasons why Roy is being paid more than Robin Lopez. First of all, Roy is more versatile offensively. Robin expanded his post game this season but Roy is still more efficient and consistent at it.

          The second reason is that Roy is a better defender. Robin has become a great defender in his own right as well but Roy is still better.

          The third and most important reason is how proven the two players were prior to getting their contracts. Roy was an All-Star that averaged 11.7 PPG and 11.2 RPG in the playoffs before signing his max contract (11-12 playoffs) with a couple of huge playoff games against the eventual champion (19 points/18 rebounds/5 blocks in game 3). Robin was the unproven brother of an All-Star.

          Robin Lopez had a great season. He proved that he belongs to a contender and he was Portland's stabilizing force. His next contract is going to be much, much better.

          Roy, on the other hand, had a disappointing season. It started off great but then both he and the team crashed.

          It took a very good year by one player and a very bad year by the other player for you (or anyone else) to ask this question. If you asked anyone (and I'm not talking about Pacer fans but neutral observers like Grantland) at the start of the season what is the reason for the disparity between the contracts of Roy Hibbert and Robin Lopez then they would point out the obvious.

          I have told you this thing again but I'll say it one more in case you ignored me the first time. I don't have any reason to kiss any player's or executive's ***. I'm not here to excuse anyone. I'm simply calling it as I see it. I'm not going to scapegoat someone for the amusement of the general crowd simply because he happens to be the forum's current favorite whipping boy. I didn't do it to Darren Collison, I didn't do it to Gerald Green, I didn't do it to Miles Plumlee, I didn't do it to Danny Granger and I'm not going to do it to anyone.
          Originally posted by IrishPacer
          Empty vessels make the most noise.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

            Originally posted by Since86 View Post
            Yep, one player is the reason why the Pacers are such a good rebounding team. Makes total sense. I'd expect someone like KLove, or D.Jordan to have that type of impact. Pretty impressive for the sole reason a team is good at rebounding, only averaging 7 rebs. Maybe his sheer presence just pushed the other rebounds in his teammates hands.

            Add rebounding to the list of things Lance is the bestest ever at.

            Lance's 7 rebs=reason why Pacers are so good at team rebounding
            Roy's 7rebs=reason why Pacers are a "slightly weak"rebounding team

            And Lance fully explains why the Pacers were the 4th best rebounding team in the league in 11-12, because Lance's 10mpg over 42 games just propelled them.....
            Lance's 4reb average in 12-13 must explain why the Pacers were the best rebounding team in the league in 12-13 too.

            Man, that Lance, he makes other players better by simple facilitated diffusion.
            When I look at it like this I can see why so many Pacers fans worship the guy as the second coming even though he cared so much about the Pacers and fans that the left them for about the same money. Luckily they have plenty of room on the Hornet's band wagon for any Pacer fan wanting to jump on. They may even have a forum over there where they can bash Pacer players and talk about that upcoming superstar Lance.
            Why do teams tank? Ask a Spurs fan.

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            • #81
              Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

              Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
              Actually, yes. Robin Lopez always blocks out and he is the the main reason why LMA's rebounding average went up from 9.1 to 11.1.
              Since your post is lengthy, I will limit what I quote. I actually agree that Hibbert's best role is to block out. Unfortunately, that is also David West's best role because neither of them are athletic enough to crash the boards.

              Dikembe didn't seem to have a problem rebounding and he wasn't that terribly athletic. He was tough enough to control the paint and long enough to grab rebounds while at the same time defending the rim. They are not skills that have to be mutually exclusive.

              The fact is, Hibbert paired with West requires that a wing do the rebounding. We saw that last year. Unfortunately, we do not have the horses this coming year to do that. Hibbert has averaged 8.8 boards in the past but he's seemed to lost some of that. From my perspective, he's been brought further out on the floor making it difficult for him to rebound...which also prevents him from protecting the rim...and that all hurts his confidence. This is not 2011-12. Teams have adjusted to Roy.. We shall see how this turns out.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                Since your post is lengthy, I will limit what I quote. I actually agree that Hibbert's best role is to block out. Unfortunately, that is also David West's best role because neither of them are athletic enough to crash the boards.

                Dikembe didn't seem to have a problem rebounding and he wasn't that terribly athletic. He was tough enough to control the paint and long enough to grab rebounds while at the same time defending the rim. They are not skills that have to be mutually exclusive.
                Dikembe wasn't terribly athletic but he still was a lot more athletic than Roy. Dikembe was also at least 40 pounds lighter than Roy which made him a lot more mobile. Roy is a lot closer to Mark Eaton athletically than he is to Dikembe.

                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                The fact is, Hibbert paired with West requires that a wing do the rebounding. We saw that last year. Unfortunately, we do not have the horses this coming year to do that. Hibbert has averaged 8.8 boards in the past but he's seemed to lost some of that. From my perspective, he's been brought further out on the floor making it difficult for him to rebound...which also prevents him from protecting the rim...and that all hurts his confidence. This is not 2011-12. Teams have adjusted to Roy.. We shall see how this turns out.

                I believe that the only thing that changed between 11-12 and now is the way that the team itself uses Roy. I don't believe that Roy forgot to rebound in half a year. The team simply instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards (if they are in the proximity, obviously) in order to get into our offense quickly. I distinctly remember that the following sequence happened a lot:

                1) The opposition takes a quick 3 or a long 2 with no offensive player in position to grab an offensive board.

                2) Every single Pacer except PG or Lance immediatedly runs to the other end of the court.

                3) PG or Lance grab the rebound while the other 9 players are past the half court and bring the ball up.

                This sequence happened several times throughout the game. Don't you think that we could let our bigs grab their boards in order to pump their numbers? A lot of teams do that (looking at you, LMA). We didn't do it because it didn't make sense for us. We wanted to get into our offense as quick as possible and that's why we instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards.

                It's as simple as that, in my opinion.
                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                Empty vessels make the most noise.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                  Originally posted by Eleazar View Post
                  Yes, they just "control the paint" by doing nothing. Their presence alone is enough to get the rebound. **** that, if you think that you know nothing about basketball.
                  Don't matter. When u the tallest player on the court and u can't grab a single rebound the whole game, u ain't very good at rebounding

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                    Originally posted by LeRyan07 View Post
                    Don't matter. When u the tallest player on the court and u can't grab a single rebound the whole game, u ain't very good at rebounding
                    I can't believe that I agree 100% with this. I would have worded it differently, but this gets the general point across.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                      Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                      Dikembe wasn't terribly athletic but he still was a lot more athletic than Roy. Dikembe was also at least 40 pounds lighter than Roy which made him a lot more mobile. Roy is a lot closer to Mark Eaton athletically than he is to Dikembe.




                      I believe that the only thing that changed between 11-12 and now is the way that the team itself uses Roy. I don't believe that Roy forgot to rebound in half a year. The team simply instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards (if they are in the proximity, obviously) in order to get into our offense quickly. I distinctly remember that the following sequence happened a lot:

                      1) The opposition takes a quick 3 or a long 2 with no offensive player in position to grab an offensive board.

                      2) Every single Pacer except PG or Lance immediatedly runs to the other end of the court.

                      3) PG or Lance grab the rebound while the other 9 players are past the half court and bring the ball up.

                      This sequence happened several times throughout the game. Don't you think that we could let our bigs grab their boards in order to pump their numbers? A lot of teams do that (looking at you, LMA). We didn't do it because it didn't make sense for us. We wanted to get into our offense as quick as possible and that's why we instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards.

                      It's as simple as that, in my opinion.
                      That may have been the strategy, but it has little or no precedent in the NBA. Shooting guards are not normally called upon to go to the glass.

                      Here is what I think happened. Once Roy established himself as a dominant shot-blocking presence in the paint, teams had no choice but to take him outside. His issue with mobility became exposed so it became even more difficult for him to get back to rebound or block shots. So, the Pacers abandoned the idea Roy and West would stay home to hit the glass. Instead, since teams are taking them outside they now block-out. This isn't happening because the Pacers are choosing to do it as a strategy. They would far prefer Roy to stay right in the paint and contend with shots. But the opposition isn't allowing that and it is indeed having an affect on Roy grabbing boards in addition to protecting the rim. That is why our SG led the entire team in rebounds. Our bigs are simply too slow and not athletic enough to get back to hit the glass.

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                      • #86
                        Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                        Originally posted by Nuntius View Post
                        The team simply instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards (if they are in the proximity, obviously) in order to get into our offense quickly.

                        Don't you think that we could let our bigs grab their boards in order to pump their numbers? A lot of teams do that (looking at you, LMA). We didn't do it because it didn't make sense for us. We wanted to get into our offense as quick as possible and that's why we instructed our bigs to let the wings grab the boards.

                        It's as simple as that, in my opinion.

                        Do you have any proof of this "instruction" per our coaches or is this as you stated only "opinion." So basically your saying the coaches instructed Hibbert not to rebound the basketball and only block out. Thats just absurd.

                        Blocking out and rebounding are essentially the same action all in one. you dont just block out with no intent of rebounding. thats so far fetched as to the reason why roys rebounding #s were low i dont even want to bother explaining the variety of flaws presented in that argument.

                        Again, i would like to know if there is any support to the claim hibbert was instructed to only block out from our coaches. not saying you dont have direct evidence, simply requesting the source.

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                        • #87
                          Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                          I like to boil things down to a simple thought.

                          People who "hate stats" often rely on bad stats the most.

                          Rebounds per game is a ****** stat, that doesn't account for a myriad of circumstances, in regards to the actual effect or relevance it has toward winning a basketball game.

                          Case in point:



                          Yet players get destroyed for not reaching certain bad stat benchmarks, Roy will never be good enough for many unless he reaches the irrelevant benchmark of 10 rebounds per game, you know, because he's tall.

                          Any time someone tries to introduce an advanced metric into the discussion, that tries to account for the bigger picture of what's actually going on, inevitably some push back in the form of "I just watch the games" comes into play. I think that's crap.

                          If you think RPG is so otherworldly important, than stop talking about how you "watch the games". That's a stat. Assists per game? (How often are good winning passes not credited with the assist?) They are all stats, some better than others. In fact, the most simplistic ones usually aren't the best ones.
                          Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 08-24-2014, 01:15 AM.
                          "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

                          - ilive4sports

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                          • #88
                            Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                            If you want to destroy a statistic, it would be assists per game average. Doing late night research (so it could easily be wrong), the highest APG average anyone has had since Tinsley was TJ Ford in 08/09 with 5.9, and I think Darren Collison had 5.3 apg one year (George Hill's highest is 4.7 in 2012/13). I do think there's/was a legit passing concern on the team.
                            "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

                            ----------------- Reggie Miller

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                            • #89
                              Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                              Originally posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post


                              MY EYES! I CAN'T UNSEE IT!
                              "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

                              "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "

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                              • #90
                                Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

                                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                                That may have been the strategy, but it has little or no precedent in the NBA. Shooting guards are not normally called upon to go to the glass.
                                No, it's not unprecedented at all. Michael Jordan averaged 6.2 RPG throughout his career. Kobe averages 5.3 RPG in his career. Wade averages 5.0 RPG in his career. Julius Ervin averaged 8.5 RPG. Oscar Robertson averaged 7.5 RPG.

                                It's common for athletic wings that also bring the ball up to stay back and gather the rebound. Let's not act like Lance is some kind of an undersized guard. Lance is a wing and wings are often called upon to attack the glass.

                                Originally posted by BlueNGold View Post
                                Here is what I think happened. Once Roy established himself as a dominant shot-blocking presence in the paint, teams had no choice but to take him outside. His issue with mobility became exposed so it became even more difficult for him to get back to rebound or block shots. So, the Pacers abandoned the idea Roy and West would stay home to hit the glass. Instead, since teams are taking them outside they now block-out. This isn't happening because the Pacers are choosing to do it as a strategy. They would far prefer Roy to stay right in the paint and contend with shots. But the opposition isn't allowing that and it is indeed having an affect on Roy grabbing boards in addition to protecting the rim. That is why our SG led the entire team in rebounds. Our bigs are simply too slow and not athletic enough to get back to hit the glass.
                                Not every team had a way to take Roy outside of the paint. Not every team has a big that can shoot from 3. The sequence I described in the post you quoted happened in every single game regardless of the opponent. Therefore, it's easy to assume that it was our own strategy and not something that the opposition imposed on us.
                                Originally posted by IrishPacer
                                Empty vessels make the most noise.

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