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Thread: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    What are on/off rebounding numbers by definition?

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    What are on/off rebounding numbers by definition?

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    Team rebounding percentage with player on the court/off.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinManJoshua View Post
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    Team rebounding percentage with player on the court/off.
    Ok, quick rundown of the rebounding percentage numbers for our starting five:
    Lance - 69.1%
    PG - 61.5%
    West - 60.2%
    Hill - 57.3%
    Hibbert - 50%

    Of the starting 5, Lance played the most with "backups"
    Ian - 49%
    Granger - 58.1%
    Watson - 49.8%
    Scola - 53.9%

    So it makes sense that Lance's numbers for on/off would be skewered based on the line-ups he was playing with. Essentially, our starting 5 apart from Hibbert are excellent at their position for rebounding percentage, but our back-ups tended to be much worse. It would also make sense Hibbert got the benefit from playing with the starting 5 the most as he very rarely played with the bench players.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Ok, quick rundown of the rebounding percentage numbers for our starting five:
    Lance - 69.1%
    PG - 61.5%
    West - 60.2%
    Hill - 57.3%
    Hibbert - 50%

    Of the starting 5, Lance played the most with "backups"
    Ian - 49%
    Granger - 58.1%
    Watson - 49.8%
    Scola - 53.9%

    So it makes sense that Lance's numbers for on/off would be skewered based on the line-ups he was playing with. Essentially, our starting 5 apart from Hibbert are excellent at their position for rebounding percentage, but our back-ups tended to be much worse. It would also make sense Hibbert got the benefit from playing with the starting 5 the most as he very rarely played with the bench players.
    Couple other interesting stats that also back-up what Since86 posted earlier. 47.4% of Hibberts rebounds were contested chances. West was second highest on the starting unit at 34.8 then Lance at 24.7. To me I take this as Hibbert on the offensive boards and playing a role defensively that does not allow for the easy defensive rebounds. It also explains his lower rebounding percentage.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Ok, quick rundown of the rebounding percentage numbers for our starting five:
    Lance - 69.1%
    PG - 61.5%
    West - 60.2%
    Hill - 57.3%
    Hibbert - 50%

    Of the starting 5, Lance played the most with "backups"
    Ian - 49%
    Granger - 58.1%
    Watson - 49.8%
    Scola - 53.9%

    So it makes sense that Lance's numbers for on/off would be skewered based on the line-ups he was playing with. Essentially, our starting 5 apart from Hibbert are excellent at their position for rebounding percentage, but our back-ups tended to be much worse. It would also make sense Hibbert got the benefit from playing with the starting 5 the most as he very rarely played with the bench players.
    I'm not sure what statistic you're quoting, but its not either team rebounding percentage or individual rebounding percentage (both in terms of ALL possible rebounds). For an average player, those figures would be at ~50% and ~10%.

    Are you looking at percentage of rebounds grabbed vs. those grabbed by his positional counterpart on the opposing team? That would be one way of looking at how good an individual is at rebounding, but does not provide any information about how much a player such as Hibbert helps/doesn't help team rebounding. The premise of the article, or at least of much of the discussion on PD, is that Hibbert is a below average rebounder but it appears he remains a net positive for us on the boards because he blocks out consistently and effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Couple other interesting stats that also back-up what Since86 posted earlier. 47.4% of Hibberts rebounds were contested chances. West was second highest on the starting unit at 34.8 then Lance at 24.7. To me I take this as Hibbert on the offensive boards and playing a role defensively that does not allow for the easy defensive rebounds. It also explains his lower rebounding percentage.
    I think this is an excellent point.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 08-21-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Just realized a bit of this, you're right, one of either Lance or PG were on the floor at almost all times.
    Yep, that was my point. One of Lance or PG were on the floor at all times and thus those two cannot influence one way or the other an individual's on-off stats.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    How do you account for successful team rebounding?

    Roy doesn't put up eye popping RPG stats, fine. The point of the article is simple, that this is irrelevant. Roy does in fact contribute to a successful team rebounding concept in a meaningful way.

    The most important stat listed is this. The team rebounds better when Roy is on the floor than when he is off the floor. I realize there are posters who absolutely refuse to recognize such an "advanced" stat (some prefer to watch basketball with their gut). That one seems pretty straight forward and easy to track to my eyes. Roy on the floor, better rebounding, Roy off the floor, worse rebounding. Simple numbers. Its not like David West is a monster rebounder making him look better by playing in the same lineup, its easy to suppose that if the guards are getting a lot of rebounds, someone is blocking out effectively.



    If we suppose this is true, and we also suppose that by boxing out Hibbert is helping the team rebound better (and we have already confirmed that the Pacers are a good rebounding team) Then I don't see a problem with this. He's simply using the tools he has to maximize his effectiveness.
    Sure, we may rebound better with Hibbert on the floor. But the fact our other bigs (Scola and Ian) are horrific at rebounding and therefore causing this "advanced stat" does not make Hibbert any good at it either.

    Stats don't really have problems. The problem is when people make conclusions from stats and they simply don't think of everything. That's why people get doctorates in the stuff to weed out people who have no business using stats.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    I remember some of the same stat people claiming Troy Murphy was a good team defender. Memories. I am glad they are memories...

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    So apparently all of our big men are terrible rebounders yet we somehow still manage to be one of the top rebounding teams in the league.
    Last edited by Eleazar; 08-22-2014 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Our wings were very good rebounders. Let's see how it turns out this year. If Roy's blocking out is the be-all-end-all to team rebounding we should be fine.

    Edit: Scola is indeed a poor rebounder and Ian has butter on his hands. I like them overall but rebounding is not their strong point. Scola is a good shooter and Ian is athletic and a good shot blocker/rim protector. But rebounding? I really don't think so. We are talking average in the league as backups. Not terrible if you look across the league, but we were supposed to be a contender.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-21-2014 at 09:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    We had the 4th best record in the league...the 8th best rebounding. As a team, rebounding was probably a slight weak point. Considering our wings were actually quite good rebounders, I don't think that speaks very highly of our bigs. No, I don't think they are above average rebounders. I think our wings, who will not be playing this coming season, were well above average.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    We had the 4th best record in the league...the 8th best rebounding. As a team, rebounding was probably a slight weak point. Considering our wings were actually quite good rebounders, I don't think that speaks very highly of our bigs. No, I don't think they are above average rebounders. I think our wings, who will not be playing this coming season, were well above average.
    I mentioned this earlier, but I think our rebounding is actually inflated for two reasons:
    1.) we had a really good defensive team that help opponents to the lowest shooting percentage in the league (or maybe second lowest), which led to more defensive rebounds for the Pacers.
    2.) we turned the ball over more than our opponents, leading to more shots by our opponents than us, leading to more rebounds for us.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    I mentioned this earlier, but I think our rebounding is actually inflated for two reasons:
    1.) we had a really good defensive team that help opponents to the lowest shooting percentage in the league (or maybe second lowest), which led to more defensive rebounds for the Pacers.
    2.) we turned the ball over more than our opponents, leading to more shots by our opponents than us, leading to more rebounds for us.
    Nice post. There are so many factors involved when trying to make these conclusions and, indeed, when the opposition gets a ton of shots against you AND your defense is good...of course rebound numbers will go up because it's normally easier for the defense to rebound the ball because of positioning. Similarly, if your wing defense is horrible your rebounding is going to be really bad because the opposition will drain every shot leaving you with very few boards. The calculus is something some recognize and know better than to use a slide rule to figure out.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Our wings were very good rebounders.
    You don't have good rebounding wings without big men doing their jobs in the post.


    when the opposition gets a ton of shots against you AND your defense is good...of course rebound numbers will go up
    Pacer opponent's ORB% was 23.2%. Only Charlotte did a better job of preventing their opponent from getting an offensive rebound.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    You don't have good rebounding wings without big men doing their jobs in the post.




    Pacer opponent's ORB% was 23.2%. Only Charlotte did a better job of preventing their opponent from getting an offensive rebound.
    I think you're missing the point. You disagree with BnG and are using a statistic to support your argument. Regardless of the validity of the statistic, because you haven't publicly stated you have a Ph.D in statistics and your statistic refutes his point, you might as well be arguing that the earth is made of bacon. Because everybody knows, if you attack somebody's credentials, you can make their point, however valid, seem worse to people that already agree with you.

    Could we perhaps have a conversation about basketball statistics without somebody attacking people's intelligence?

    While we are at it, let's go ahead and put to rest the notion that you need a doctorate to understand simple statistics. The concepts of an incredibly vast majority of statistics used in basketball are covered in the first 3 weeks of a statistics class any high school sophomore can take. People with doctorates are more qualified than others; they're not the only ones qualified to speak intelligently about any statistics. The interpretation of simple proportions can be covered by anybody who did well in any statistics class ever. Everybody will make mistakes on occasion (and people will also flat out be right or wrong), but instead of telling people they're too stupid to know what they're talking about, how about we leave that part out of it and just stick to a discussion about basketball?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Sure, we may rebound better with Hibbert on the floor. But the fact our other bigs (Scola and Ian) are horrific at rebounding and therefore causing this "advanced stat" does not make Hibbert any good at it either.

    Stats don't really have problems. The problem is when people make conclusions from stats and they simply don't think of everything. That's why people get doctorates in the stuff to weed out people who have no business using stats.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 08-22-2014 at 11:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Rebounding consists of 3 things luck, blocking-out, and attacking the ball. Luck comprises of about 50% of what goes into rebounding.
    I dont disagree with the list you provided. But, instinct should have been added. Guys like Foster had it. As did the worm, and Barkley (who was only 6'4) and would dominate the glass.

    Sorry, no matter what stats you want to put on it. roy is average at best when it comes to rebounding. He simply lacks the instinct, and that overlaps into severaal other facets of Roys game.

    I would love to see more Dikembe Mutombo in roys game, who I believe averaged 10+ boards a game in his career.

    Bottom line: NO Roy is not a good rebounder.


    This thread should never have lasted past the first page. Its all but settled, Roy is below average when it comes to rebouding.

    You need evidence. View the 2014 ECF vs a frontline of Birdman, Haslem, and Bosh.


    Roy shoulda put up 10+ boards with ease that series. Gortat would got 15 a game like it was only mission in life.



    Roy punked out and quit last season. Rolled the **** right over. No accountability. Maybe big fella shoulda got selfish like Lance and started attempting to rebound the damn basketball.

    He played like a *****. Roy was a downright embarrassment on the court last season. Scarred by his play. He got paid and lost his ballsack.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    While we are at it, let's go ahead and put to rest the notion that you need a doctorate to understand simple statistics. The concepts of an incredibly vast majority of statistics used in basketball are covered in the first 3 weeks of a statistics class any [i]high school sophomore [\i] can take. People with doctorates are more qualified than others; they're not the only ones qualified to speak intelligently about any statistics. The interpretation of simple proportions can be covered by anybody who did well in any statistics class ever. Everybody will make mistakes on occasion (and people will also flat out be right or wrong), but instead of telling people they're too stupid to know what they're talking about, how about we leave that part out of it and just stick to a discussion about basketball?
    Yes THANK YOU! What people call "advanced stats" are usually just ratios. Even a complicated formula like PER is basically simple arithmetic. It's only when we're talking APM and the like do we even touch on more advanced concepts like statistical regression.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    We had the 4th best record in the league...the 8th best rebounding. As a team, rebounding was probably a slight weak point. Considering our wings were actually quite good rebounders, I don't think that speaks very highly of our bigs. No, I don't think they are above average rebounders. I think our wings, who will not be playing this coming season, were well above average.
    Wait....being better than nearly 2/3rds of the league in a category is now a "slight weak point?" Okay.....

    EDIT: Also, Pacers were actually 6th, seeing as how they were tied with Minny and OKC for 6th. It's awfully weird that you'd try to put two teams that the Pacers tied with, above the Pacers. Also, I cross referenced rebounding opportunities. Out of the 5 teams (Port, Den, Det, Hous, GS) all 5 of them had more def rebounding opportunities than the Pacers. Out of the two teams that were tied with the Pacers in total rebounding, both had more defensive rebounding opportunities.

    In fact, the Pacers were the #1 defensive rebounding team last season, while having the average number of opportunities. So this belief that the Pacers were slightly weak in rebounding, holds absolutely zero water.

    Here at the two stat pages I cross-referenced.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...#all_opp_stats
    http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...rt/avgRebounds
    Last edited by Since86; 08-22-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Nah. The league average for opponent shot attempts was 83shots per game. Pacer opponents averaged 82.74 fga per game. So the Pacers were right smack average on number of defensive rebounding opportunities.
    Rebounding stats compare pacers average rebounds Against our opponents. So even if the shot attempts were around average you have you have to look At shot attempts against and field goal percentage for and against
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Rebounding stats compare pacers average rebounds Against our opponents. So even if the shot attempts were around average you have you have to look At shot attempts against and field goal percentage for and against
    Yeah, that's why I deleted the post. After I did calculated league average vs Pacers. League average was 46 (rounding up) defensive rebounding opportunities, Pacers had 48. There's another way to look at it though. Pacers grabbed 76.8% of rebounds defensively, which was good for 2nd in the league. (Bobcats lead at 77.6%) League average was 74.5%.

    Anyway you slice it, the Pacers were a top rebounding team, either based off of total numbers or percentages.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...#all_opp_stats
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    And you can thank Lance Stephenson not Roy Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Yep, one player is the reason why the Pacers are such a good rebounding team. Makes total sense. I'd expect someone like KLove, or D.Jordan to have that type of impact. Pretty impressive for the sole reason a team is good at rebounding, only averaging 7 rebs. Maybe his sheer presence just pushed the other rebounds in his teammates hands.

    Add rebounding to the list of things Lance is the bestest ever at.

    Lance's 7 rebs=reason why Pacers are so good at team rebounding
    Roy's 7rebs=reason why Pacers are a "slightly weak"rebounding team

    And Lance fully explains why the Pacers were the 4th best rebounding team in the league in 11-12, because Lance's 10mpg over 42 games just propelled them.....
    Lance's 4reb average in 12-13 must explain why the Pacers were the best rebounding team in the league in 12-13 too.

    Man, that Lance, he makes other players better by simple facilitated diffusion.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-22-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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  33. #73

    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Yea he is. He is 7'2 and still has games with no rebounds.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    These are the top 8 rebounding teams in the NBA in terms of Total rebounds. Not a perfect stat as there is no such thing. However, notice that every single team on this list has a big as one of their top 2 rebounders. The only player who might not be technically "a big" is Kevin Durant who is 6'11".

    Anyone think these bigs spend their time blocking out? No...they control the paint and that's why they are the best in the league.

    Also, it might be useful to note that two of our best rebounders are gone this coming season and the other one is getting past his prime. Hibbert certainly does have his work cut out to show he can rebound.

    Portland
    Aldridge (PF) - 11.5
    Lopez (C) - 8.5


    Denver
    Hickson (FC) - 9.2
    Faried (PF) - 8.6


    Detroit
    Drummond (FC) - 13.2
    Monroe (FC) - 9.3


    Golden State
    Bogut (C) - 10
    Lee (FC) - 9.3


    Houston
    Howard (C) - 12.2
    Asik (C) - 7.9


    Oklahoma City
    Ibaka (FC) - 8.8
    Durant (PF) - 7.4


    Indiana Pacers
    Stephenson (SG) - 7.2
    Paul George (SF) - 6.8
    David West (PF) - 6.8

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Yes, they just "control the paint" by doing nothing. Their presence alone is enough to get the rebound. **** that, if you think that you know nothing about basketball.

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