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Thread: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Stamina is indeed part of Roy's issue and he wouldn't be able to maintain the same rate given more minutes. Dale could probably play 50 minutes every night and keep performing because he is one bad dude. He would have knocked the **** out of Lance, btw.
    Yeah size has nothing to do with it. Dale was much closer to a normal sized human being than Roy. To expect Roy to play with as high motor and for as long as DD is being ignorant of basic physics.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    I am curious if this discussion has been made between Roy and Vogel. Is this really a thing? Or is it just somebody seeing something that is not really there.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    The whole article is great but what I liked the most was the last paragraph:

    We chastise players for padding their stats in the NBA, but don’t praise ones who focus on the fundamentals at the expense of their numbers. In the case of Roy Hibbert, he doesn’t jump after every rebound that comes his way. He could easily, but that wouldn’t necessarily have the same effect. Instead, his focus on boxing out his man — the opposing team’s center — clears the paint and creates space for the rest of his teammates to grab an uncontested rebound and push the ball.

    It doesn’t show up on the stat sheet but it’s just as important.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Rebounding consists of 3 things luck, blocking-out, and attacking the ball. Luck comprises of about 50% of what goes into rebounding. Simply put, if the ball does not bounce in your general direction you are not going to get the rebound. Blocking-out is about 45% of rebounding. If the ball bounces in your direction if you don't block out you have about a 50% chance of getting the rebound if both players just stand there. If you do block out it is almost 100% certain you will get the rebound. That just leaves 5% attacking the ball. This really only makes a difference when you don't block out properly, or someone else didn't block out properly. This is also the 5% that can elevate a player into elite rebounding status.

    So if Roy blocks out well, which I think by most accounts he does, and his team gets the rebound Roy is being a good rebounder even if he doesn't get a +1 rebound in his stats.

    This is actually really basic stuff that anyone who played extended time as a PF or C from the age of 10+ in Indiana should know and understand. It just takes having an understanding that goes beyond simple PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG stats.
    I don't even... do you have anything to back up that 50% luck statistic? Btw rebounding also involves positioning/anticipation, a skill that severely cuts into the luck element of your mathematical equation.

    What percentage of a jump shot is luck? 95%?

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Yeah size has nothing to do with it. Dale was much closer to a normal sized human being than Roy. To expect Roy to play with as high motor and for as long as DD is being ignorant of basic physics.
    Well, actually it's probably biology...

    In any event, I'm not asking for Dennis Rodman. I would only hope the man could stay on his feet 50% of the time and not get outmuscled by guys half his size...or out hustled by less than 50% of his competition. If you're a big man, you should be playing big. If not, you better get on the glass.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-20-2014 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Roy has to box out instead of go for the rebound because his man will generally beat him to the ball or tip it in. Compare that to how Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard play in the paint. They own that territory. I suppose Bynum is done but...as illustration. So, yes, the Pacers are left with someone else cleaning the glass. That is why Lance Stephenson led the Indiana Pacers in rebounds last year.

    None of the Pacers have a knack for rebounding except the guards. David West simply isn't athletic enough and while you don't need to have great jumping ability it helps if you have a good motor. Neither Roy nor David have great motors. Ian lacks technique and does not have good hands so he's not going to help. These are the issues. We simply don't have the personnel and it just got worse with Lance Stephenson and Paul George being unavailable.

    Edit: So, this isn't a myth. This is a situation where a person is trying to challenge cold hard facts.
    How do you account for successful team rebounding?

    Roy doesn't put up eye popping RPG stats, fine. The point of the article is simple, that this is irrelevant. Roy does in fact contribute to a successful team rebounding concept in a meaningful way.

    The most important stat listed is this. The team rebounds better when Roy is on the floor than when he is off the floor. I realize there are posters who absolutely refuse to recognize such an "advanced" stat (some prefer to watch basketball with their gut). That one seems pretty straight forward and easy to track to my eyes. Roy on the floor, better rebounding, Roy off the floor, worse rebounding. Simple numbers. Its not like David West is a monster rebounder making him look better by playing in the same lineup, its easy to suppose that if the guards are getting a lot of rebounds, someone is blocking out effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Roy has to box out instead of go for the rebound because his man will generally beat him to the ball or tip it in.
    If we suppose this is true, and we also suppose that by boxing out Hibbert is helping the team rebound better (and we have already confirmed that the Pacers are a good rebounding team) Then I don't see a problem with this. He's simply using the tools he has to maximize his effectiveness.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    The whole article is great but what I liked the most was the last paragraph:
    Anyone who thinks this writer is "grasping at straws" or whatever should reread this quote. It makes perfect sense.

    We chastise players for padding their stats in the NBA, but don’t praise ones who focus on the fundamentals at the expense of their numbers. In the case of Roy Hibbert, he doesn’t jump after every rebound that comes his way. He could easily, but that wouldn’t necessarily have the same effect. Instead, his focus on boxing out his man — the opposing team’s center — clears the paint and creates space for the rest of his teammates to grab an uncontested rebound and push the ball.

    It doesn’t show up on the stat sheet but it’s just as important.
    The anti-Troy Murphy effect.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 08-21-2014 at 06:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Bah, this article just selectively picks data to try and back up it's point while ignoring other data:

    "if Hibbert’s low rebounding numbers were a problem, the team would’ve suffered. Yet, instead, the team rebounded at a higher rate with Hibbert on the court (they grabbed 52.5 percent of all available rebounds), as apposed to when he was off (51.2 percent)."
    - The obvious reason for this has nothing to do with Hibbert. When Hibbert was on the court he was usually playing with Lance and PG, two of the top rebounding wings in the game.

    Also, it talked about the Pacers being a good rebounding team as a whole, which is also a skewed number. Essentially, we were above average at defensive rebounding and below average at offensive rebounds. The reason we ended up with a good rebound differential is that our opponents shot the ball more times per game than us, allowing the Pacers to grab more defensive rebounds. the Pacers turned the ball over more, and had more free throws, than our opponents on average. If we were that good of a defensive rebounding team, then opposing teams would not have averaged more offensive rebounds per game against the Pacers than we averaged against our opponents. It's simple maths.

    I agree with someone earlier who posted that Hibbert was a much better rebounder the previous two years, but last year he just wasn't good at it, especially for the last 30 games or so and the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Anyone who thinks this writer is "grasping at straws" or whatever should reread this quote. It makes perfect sense.
    The writer grasping at straws and also writing a sentence that makes sense are two separate ideas. Yes, that sentence makes sense, but it doesn't explain Hibbert's rebounding issues during the 2013-2014 season. The writer tried to use some stats to back up his reasoning, but his statistical use wasn't always logical and avoided the many stats that don't back up his conclusion. The article reads like the author decided Hibbert wasn't a bad rebounder, then researched to try and prove it, as opposed to researching Hibbert's rebounding then drawing a conclusion based on the data.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    The writer grasping at straws and also writing a sentence that makes sense are two separate ideas. Yes, that sentence makes sense, but it doesn't explain Hibbert's rebounding issues during the 2013-2014 season.
    How does it not explain it? Imagine a player sliding over to challenge shots at the rim, having the shot go over his hands, then having to turn around, find his man, box out, then go after the rebound. Is all that realistic? No, it's not. Which is why Roy often times finds himself out of rebounding position.

    Roy isn't the Ben Wallace type defender/rebounder, where he picks and chooses to come weakside periodically. The entire defensive scheme is set up for him to be on the backside of the play. Good rebounders do their work before the shot goes up. They get themselves into position, usually weakside, so they can go after the ball. Being strongside, and challenging a shot, and then rebounding is extremely difficult for players to do, not to mention players as slow footed as Roy.

    And that's why I brought up team rebounding stats. Which is more important, Roy to stay in position and get more individual rebounds, even though his team makes up for his individual shortcomings, or do you want Roy to stay in constant helpside defense and challenge shots at the rim? You get to pick one or the other. Asking Roy to do both is like asking Mugsy Bogues to grow.

    Is Roy a bad individual rebounder? Sure, although I don't think "bad" is quite the right term. But that's the small picture. Team sports are about the big picture. Players have roles, and Roy's role is to protect the rim, and battle for offensive rebounds. His teammates roles are to crash down on defensive possessions and help rebound. Both Roy and his teammates do their jobs, and do them effectively. In the end, that's all that matters. It's about the team, not Roy's individual numbers.

    If/When, which I totally acknowledge might be this season with both Lance and PG not in the lineup, the Pacers start struggling to rebound, Roy will need to stay home more.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-21-2014 at 09:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    I think Rogco's point is that Hibbert was statistically a much better rebounder before last season. All those explanations - boxing out, getting out of rebounding position when challenging shots, etc - were all things that Roy did previously when putting up better rebounding numbers.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    People complained about Roy's rebounding then too. The criticism just got much louder when he fell off the face of the Earth in April.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    How does it not explain it?
    It may or may not explain his rebounding numbers last year. It is a possibility, not a reality. Another possibility is he wasn't very good at rebounding. The quote, by itself, is not an explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Team sports are about the big picture. Players have roles, and Roy's role is to protect the rim, and battle for offensive rebounds. His teammates roles are to crash down on defensive possessions and help rebound.
    Last year we were 26th in the league in offensive rebounding, and Hibbert had a lower ORB% than Ian Mahimi. And while I agree to a point about big picture and system, Roy is still 7'2" with an enormous wing span, and he should be getting more boards. But I do believe my perception is completely skewered by my memories of March through the end of May. Hibbert was playing great team ball through February and if I remember was rebounding pretty well too. I really hope we see a rejuvenated Roy with the leaving of Lance and loss of PG.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    It may or may not explain his rebounding numbers last year. It is a possibility, not a reality. Another possibility is he wasn't very good at rebounding. The quote, by itself, is not an explanation.
    I'm just saying that it's not two seperate ideas. Roy's defensive role directly plays into why Roy is often times out of rebounding position. Roy is a positional rebounder.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    "if Hibbert’s low rebounding numbers were a problem, the team would’ve suffered. Yet, instead, the team rebounded at a higher rate with Hibbert on the court (they grabbed 52.5 percent of all available rebounds), as apposed to when he was off (51.2 percent)."
    - The obvious reason for this has nothing to do with Hibbert. When Hibbert was on the court he was usually playing with Lance and PG, two of the top rebounding wings in the game.
    Lance and PG played with the back-ups as well. Our rotation was based around the idea that one of Lance or PG would be on the court at all times.

    Therefore, Lance and PG shouldn't affect Hibbert's on-off stats because they played both when Hibbert was on and when he was off.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Well, actually it's probably biology...

    In any event, I'm not asking for Dennis Rodman. I would only hope the man could stay on his feet 50% of the time and not get outmuscled by guys half his size...or out hustled by less than 50% of his competition. If you're a big man, you should be playing big. If not, you better get on the glass.
    Physics is the study of motion, so yeah, physics

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Physics is the study of motion, so yeah, physics
    Or .......... it's "1. a medicine that purges; laxative."

    Draw your own comparisons.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    Thank you Mrs. Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    But I do believe my perception is completely skewered by my memories of March through the end of May.
    I'll give you props for acknowledging that. The perception of a lot of people is completely skewered by those awful March-May memories but you are one of the few that openly acknowledges it.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Lance and PG played with the back-ups as well. Our rotation was based around the idea that one of Lance or PG would be on the court at all times.

    Therefore, Lance and PG shouldn't affect Hibbert's on-off stats because they played both when Hibbert was on and when he was off.
    True but not statistically accurate. Hibbert was never on the court without one of either PG and Lance, and both were on the court for the majority of his minutes. the starting lineup played the majority of the teams minutes anyway. Our two best rebounding lineups were with Ian playing center, and our third best was with West, but these line-ups didn't get much burn in time of actual minutes. Anyway, a link to the lineups used, minutes per lineup and with the rebounding data: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../2014/lineups/
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Lance and PG played with the back-ups as well. Our rotation was based around the idea that one of Lance or PG would be on the court at all times.

    Therefore, Lance and PG shouldn't affect Hibbert's on-off stats because they played both when Hibbert was on and when he was off.
    Just realized a bit of this, you're right, one of either Lance or PG were on the floor at almost all times.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Soo, Roy (The Unselfish Dude) Hibbert needs a new rule called assist to rebounds, (ATR). Because he is not getting recognition for being a team player, thus the deflation of his value and the Pacers ultimately getting screwed for having the greatest team player to ever lace them up.
    Thx guys, I feel much better now.
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 08-21-2014 at 01:57 PM.
    .

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    True but not statistically accurate. Hibbert was never on the court without one of either PG and Lance, and both were on the court for the majority of his minutes. the starting lineup played the majority of the teams minutes anyway. Our two best rebounding lineups were with Ian playing center, and our third best was with West, but these line-ups didn't get much burn in time of actual minutes. Anyway, a link to the lineups used, minutes per lineup and with the rebounding data: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../2014/lineups/
    Hibbert and Paul George had the 2 best on/off rebounding numbers of our starting unit. Hill was about even, then west and lance had the only 2 negative on/off rebounding statistics. Lance was the worst.

    Now Lance played the most minutes of the starters with the bench, but Scola, CJ, solo hill and Granger were all plus team rebounders according to the on/off statistic. Turner, and to a lesser extent Rasual and OJ were negative rebounders.

    The data doesn't point to an obvious bench/starter split. Hibbert was significantly better than Ian, Scola better than West, and after Granger left Paul George was the only wing or guard left that played regular minutes that had a positive impact.

    EDIT: after looking over your lineups, I'm convinced the rebounding difference makers are, in order, PG, Danny, and Hibbert. Danny actually had a dramatic effect on our team rebounding when he played.
    Last edited by aamcguy; 08-21-2014 at 02:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Danny actually had a dramatic effect on our team rebounding when he played.
    Well, yeah - he chucked up so many shots that there were significantly more rebounds to be had.

    (Or should that NOT be green ???????)

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Well, yeah - he chucked up so many shots that there were significantly more rebounds to be had.

    (Or should that NOT be green ???????)
    We pulled in 6.6% more defensive rebounds with him playing instead of sitting and only 1.5% more offensive rebounds.
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