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Thread: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

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    Default Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

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    The numbers have always indicated that the Indiana Pacers’ Roy Hibbert is a bad rebounder. For one, he has never averaged more than 8.8 rebounds over the course of an entire season. For a 7-foot-2, defensive-minded center — and one of the premier defensive bigs in the NBA, at that – that’s not a statistic to be proud of. To add more fuel to the fire, in the 2013-2014 season, 20 centers — ranging from Samuel Dalembert and Enes Kanter to Joakim Noah and DeAndre Jordan — averaged more rebounds per game than he did. And finally, out of players who appeared in at least 10 games during that very season, Hibbert ranked 127th in rebounds per 36 minutes.
    To a large extent, though, those numbers are skewed and Hibbert’s seemingly inept ability to grab a rebound is not only overblown but can be understood. Quite simply: the Indiana Pacers don’t rely solely on Hibbert to hit the glass, and that is by design. The way they rebound as a unit and play defense — funnelling players into Hibbert, giving up long twos instead of open threes and looks at the rim — plays a big role in explaining why his rebounding numbers, especially last season, were low.
    Team Rebounding

    The Pacers’ second-half collapse last season is well documented, as is Roy Hibbert’s. Heading into February, he was on pace to walk away with the Defensive Player of the Year award; however, following the All-Star Break, his numbers fell off a cliff. He went from averaging 11.8 points, 7.7 rebounds and 2.5 blocks per game to 8.9 points, 4.7 rebounds and 1.8 blocks, which greatly impacted the Pacers’ hopes of competing with the Miami Heat in the Eastern Conference, as Hibbert was at the centerpiece of whatever advantage they held.
    A lot of the criticism Hibbert got in those final 30 games — whether or not it was just a result of verticality taking a toll on his body — was deserved. For someone who was the anchor of the defense and a much needed presence inside offensively, Hibbert’s absence left a gaping hole in the Pacers’ attack. His defensive rating plummeted as the months wore on, which was the most concerning factor of it all.
    However, the Pacers’ rebounding numbers during that time remained the same, which, given his drastic fall in his numbers, is surprising on the surface. And although 4.7 rebounds per game for a starting center is incredibly low and disappointing, the fact that it didn’t impact the team in any negative way — as the chart below indicates — says a lot about their overall approach.
    Indiana Pacers’ Rebounding Numbers vs. Roy Hibbert’s in 2013-2014 | Basketball Reference

    Rebounding wasn’t a problem at all for the Pacers in 2013-2014. In fact, they were one of the best rebounding teams in the league all season long, even amidst their post-All-Star break collapse. Their 44.7 rebounds per game ranked eighth in the NBA; the 41.2 rebounds per game they gave up to their opponents ranked fifth; their +3.5 rebounding differential ranked third; their rebound rate (percentage of missed shots a team rebounds) of 52.0 percent ranked third; and their defensive rebounding rate of 76.8 ranked second, trailing only the Charlotte Bobcats.
    If Hibbert’s low rebounding numbers were a problem, the team would’ve suffered. Yet, instead, the team rebounded at a higher rate with Hibbert on the court (they grabbed 52.5 percent of all available rebounds), as apposed to when he was off (51.2 percent).
    Even with his numbers free falling, the Pacers didn’t miss a step, which indicates that the concerns were slightly overblown.
    The Scheme

    The reason the Pacers were so successful defensively last season was because of their scheme. In a nutshell, they looked to force teams into taking contested mid-range shots — the least valuable shot in basketball. In pick-and-rolls, the Pacers would drop Hibbert back in an attempt to entice guards from settling for long twos, and while it pulled Hibbert out of the paint, it wasn’t so far to where his presence was negated. In other situations, Hibbert was the intimidator, protecting the basket and forcing guards to kick the ball out to the perimeter instead of going up for layup.
    In terms of rebounding, Hibbert didn’t look to simply attack the glass when a shot went up; instead, he used his big frame to box out the opposing big. While that was going on, the rest of the team — Paul George, Lance Stephenson, David West and George Hill — packed the paint and went after the rebound.The result was that the team’s opposing big (be it Dwight Howard or DeAndre Jordan) was taken out of the play. It was a big reason why the Pacers ranked in the top tier in opponents offensive rebounds per game (that is, they didn’t allow many offensive boards) and it’s why Hibbert was valuable even when he wasn’t pulling down rebounds.
    No team in the NBA sends all their players into the paint to get an offensive rebound because it makes it easy for the opposition to fastbreak off of it. For that reason, neutralising a team’s big man, who is closest to the rim on the majority of shots that go up in a game, is half the job in securing defensive rebounds. Even when Hibbert doesn’t jump for a board, simply putting an arm on a big is enough to inhibit their ability to crash the glass. Hibbert is, after all, a big body — 7-foot-2, 290-pounds — and having him lean against a player makes it hard to jump straight up to grab a board. It’s also a nuisance, which will deter some players from continuously chasing rebounds as the game wears on.
    The Numbers

    Hibbert did have his moments last season where he was a force on the glass — statistically — but very little changed in his approach during those games. For example, on December 4th, 2013, he pulled down 14 rebounds against the Portland Trail Blazers. The difference in that game, as apposed to the ones in which he struggled to secure even five, was simple: the ball just went in his direction.
    As you’ll see in the video below, Hibbert did the exact same things — get in help position, contest the shot (if needed), run to his man and box him out. That much remained the same, yet the ball simple bounced in his direction rather than in George’s or Stephenson’s.
    On all of those rebounds, Hibbert didn’t try and out-jump anyone to grab them. When a shot went up, he turned his body, faced his man, and then cut off their lane to the basket by bumping into them. It took them out of the play, and had he not been the one to grab them, someone else on the team would’ve been able to.
    That does hurt the team from time-to-time, though. Because of his tendency to box out his man and not go directly for the rebound, it can result in players being left open underneath the basket if there is a breakdown defensively. Take this play as an example:

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    There was a miscommunication between George Hill and David West, which left Zach Randolph wide open underneath the basket. When the shot went up from Mike Miller, Hibbert found himself in-between his man, Marc Gasol, and Randolph. However, instead of going into the restricted area and fighting Randolph for position, he boxed out Gasol. The result: Randolph got two offensive rebounds and found Gasol wide open for a dunk. Had Hibbert helped out, George would’ve been able to take Gasol (who wasn’t really a threat from that far out, anyway) and the Pacers could’ve secured the rebound.
    Conclusion

    Hibbert isn’t a great rebounder, that much we know. Anyone who averages 6.6 rebounds in 29.7 minutes isn’t good at that facet of the game. (Also, for comparison’s sake, Hibbert ranked 41st amongst centers last season in offensive rebounding rate. That’s not good). However, that doesn’t mean he’s incapable of making plays that benefit the team.
    If anything, Hibbert is a smart rebounder. Trying to get around a 7-foot-2 behemoth is no easy task, and jumping over one is even harder. He knows that. Simply using his body to box out the opposing team’s best offensive rebounder does more than enough in helping the Pacers secure boards. With the center battling for position with Hibbert and four other Pacers in the paint, it doesn’t leave a lot of room for anyone else to get involved, and that’s why their scheme worked.
    We chastise players for padding their stats in the NBA, but don’t praise ones who focus on the fundamentals at the expense of their numbers. In the case of Roy Hibbert, he doesn’t jump after every rebound that comes his way. He could easily, but that wouldn’t necessarily have the same effect. Instead, his focus on boxing out his man — the opposing team’s center — clears the paint and creates space for the rest of his teammates to grab an uncontested rebound and push the ball.
    It doesn’t show up on the stat sheet but it’s just as important.
    All statistics gathered from ESPN, Basketball Reference and NBA. Video footage courtesy of Synergy Sports.
    Last edited by ThA HoyA; 08-20-2014 at 12:48 PM.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    That's a lot of effort put in to contradicting what anyone with two eyes can prove.

    Still, I can relate to playing the contrarian, so a tip of the cap to this article.

    He sort of waffles at the end, though:

    Conclusion

    Hibbert isn’t a great rebounder, that much we know. Anyone who averages 6.6 rebounds in 29.7 minutes isn’t good at that facet of the game. (Also, for comparison’s sake, Hibbert ranked 41st amongst centers last season in offensive rebounding rate. That’s not good). However, that doesn’t mean he’s incapable of making plays that benefit the team.
    Way to straddle that fence.....8 paragraphs, 3 scouting clips and a bar chart just to return to where we started. I retract my cap. Good day, sir.
    Last edited by Kstat; 08-20-2014 at 12:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Oyyyyy...I haven't clicked the link yet.....but I can see that this discussion is going to end well.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    IMO, she's not that good of a rebounder.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Individual rebounding numbers, or lack of individual rebounds whatever, only matter if the team is a bad rebounding team. The Pacers are not a bad rebounding team. The Pacers were tied for 6th in total rebounding, and 3rd in rebounding margin last year,#1 in both categories in the year before, 4th and 9th in 11-12. So, yeah, Roy's individual numbers really don't mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-20-2014 at 01:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    That's a lot of effort put in to contradicting what anyone with two eyes can prove.

    Still, I can relate to playing the contrarian, so a tip of the cap to this article.

    He sort of waffles at the end, though:



    Way to straddle that fence.....8 paragraphs, 3 scouting clips and a bar chart just to return to where we started. I retract my cap. Good day, sir.
    Pretty much this. He doesn't put effort into rebounding, this is obvious from watching the games. The writer states as much in this article, seemingly contradicting himself. It would appear that his actual message is "Roy Hibbert is a bad rebounder, but it's okay."

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    (Also, for comparison’s sake, Hibbert ranked 41st amongst centers last season in offensive rebounding rate. That’s not good)
    And the year before that, he was second in the league in offensive rebound rate. Bet no one here knows that.

    This article is doomed to failure if it's relying on just last season. Roy was really subpar in all facets except for defense last year. But he was actually pretty solid in rebounding the 2 seasons before, and arguably could even be called an elite rebounder in 2012-13. Consider:

    2nd in the league in offensive rebound rate and ORB/36 (behind Reggie Evans)
    2nd in the league in ORB/game (behind Zach Randolph)
    3rd in the league in total ORBs for the season (behind Randolph and Tristan Thompson - Thompson played more games)

    Of course, Kevin Love was injured that year, but that's still pretty striking statistics for a "bad" rebounder.

    EDIT: Just for fun, Roy was 10th in the league in ORB/game in 2011-12. So it's not a one year fluke thing. Last season he ranked 25th, just above Miles Plumlee. That looks a lot more like a fluke to me. But we'll see.
    Last edited by wintermute; 08-20-2014 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Pretty much this. He doesn't put effort into rebounding, this is obvious from watching the games. The writer states as much in this article, seemingly contradicting himself. It would appear that his actual message is "Roy Hibbert is a bad rebounder, but it's okay."
    Wait Roy doesn't put effort into rebounding? I think it's the opposite Roy puts effort in keeping his guy off the glass which creates rebounding opportunities for the team that's his main focus and a big reason for the team rebounding. Troy Murphy got a lot of rebounds and I'd say he put less of an effort into rebounding that Roy.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    There are also all kinds of sophisticated explanations for point guards regularly blocking Roy's shot. In fact, he's a beast at the basket.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Roy has to box out instead of go for the rebound because his man will generally beat him to the ball or tip it in. Compare that to how Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard play in the paint. They own that territory. I suppose Bynum is done but...as illustration. So, yes, the Pacers are left with someone else cleaning the glass. That is why Lance Stephenson led the Indiana Pacers in rebounds last year.

    None of the Pacers have a knack for rebounding except the guards. David West simply isn't athletic enough and while you don't need to have great jumping ability it helps if you have a good motor. Neither Roy nor David have great motors. Ian lacks technique and does not have good hands so he's not going to help. These are the issues. We simply don't have the personnel and it just got worse with Lance Stephenson and Paul George being unavailable.

    Edit: So, this isn't a myth. This is a situation where a person is trying to challenge cold hard facts.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-20-2014 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?
    Can we just say he's not a GOOD rebounder ??

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    I guess, I would like to see him getting rebounds, not just because it looks good for his numbers, but I think it could be a confidence booster for a guy who seems to be really down as far as his play goes.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    None of the Pacers have a knack for rebounding except the guards. David West simply isn't athletic enough and while you don't need to have great jumping ability it helps if you have a good motor. Neither Roy nor David have great motors. Ian lacks technique and does not have good hands so he's not going to help. These are the issues. We simply don't have the personnel and it just got worse with Lance Stephenson and Paul George being unavailable.
    Lavoy Allen is a pretty good rebounder.

    As far as Roy, blocking out your man is a fundamental of basketball. He should still be a decent rebounder, which up until the last part of last year he was...decent.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThA HoyA View Post
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    Wait Roy doesn't put effort into rebounding? I think it's the opposite Roy puts effort in keeping his guy off the glass which creates rebounding opportunities for the team that's his main focus and a big reason for the team rebounding. Troy Murphy got a lot of rebounds and I'd say he put less of an effort into rebounding that Roy.
    Right, he doesn't go for rebounds. Whether he's boxing out, falling down or thinking about what he's going to say post game is supplementary to the point that he, himself, is not a good rebounder and doesn't put effort into rebounding, which is to say that he is not good at grabbing missed shots with two hands, thereby granting possession to his team.

    George Hill can bring the ball to the right spot and go execute a perfect off the ball curl but that doesn't make him a good passer, even if it facilitated an easy pass for whoever actually dished a dime.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Roy must actually be a pretty damn good rebounder, if he can average 8 rebounds without even trying. If he puts forth some effort, he might start challenging Wilt.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Roy tries a lot. His issue is that his game is more like Rik Smits than Dale Davis. If only his offense was as good as Rik's...or he wasn't paid so much...nobody would be complaining.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    It's funny you should bring up DD. In his 10 seasons playing for the Pacers, he averaged 10.5rebs per 36mins. Roy's per-36 average? 9.3. Is one rebound every 36mins a big enough difference, to explain the differences in opinion about the level of their rebounding?

    EDIT: And just to throw more contextual statistics in here, Rik averaged 8.2 rebs per-36.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-20-2014 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Roy tries a lot. His issue is that his game is more like Rik Smits than Dale Davis. If only his offense was as good as Rik's...or he wasn't paid so much...nobody would be complaining.
    Or whatever he is he could at least be that consistently....
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Right, he doesn't go for rebounds. Whether he's boxing out, falling down or thinking about what he's going to say post game is supplementary to the point that he, himself, is not a good rebounder and doesn't put effort into rebounding, which is to say that he is not good at grabbing missed shots with two hands, thereby granting possession to his team.

    George Hill can bring the ball to the right spot and go execute a perfect off the ball curl but that doesn't make him a good passer, even if it facilitated an easy pass for whoever actually dished a dime.
    I agree he doesn't get the "stat" of the rebound, what would you call how he contributes by boxing out? I just think there's more to rebounding than just getting the board (Troy Murphy)

    It'd be like saying Iverson was a good defender because he got a lot of steals.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Rebounding consists of 3 things luck, blocking-out, and attacking the ball. Luck comprises of about 50% of what goes into rebounding. Simply put, if the ball does not bounce in your general direction you are not going to get the rebound. Blocking-out is about 45% of rebounding. If the ball bounces in your direction if you don't block out you have about a 50% chance of getting the rebound if both players just stand there. If you do block out it is almost 100% certain you will get the rebound. That just leaves 5% attacking the ball. This really only makes a difference when you don't block out properly, or someone else didn't block out properly. This is also the 5% that can elevate a player into elite rebounding status.

    So if Roy blocks out well, which I think by most accounts he does, and his team gets the rebound Roy is being a good rebounder even if he doesn't get a +1 rebound in his stats.

    This is actually really basic stuff that anyone who played extended time as a PF or C from the age of 10+ in Indiana should know and understand. It just takes having an understanding that goes beyond simple PPG, RPG, APG, and SPG stats.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's funny you should bring up DD. In his 10 seasons playing for the Pacers, he averaged 10.5rebs per 36mins. Roy's per-36 average? 9.3. Is one rebound every 36mins a big enough difference, to explain the differences in opinion about the level of their rebounding?

    EDIT: And just to throw more contextual statistics in here, Rik averaged 8.2 rebs per-36.
    What were their actual rebounding and minutes played averages. Per 36 numbers don't mean as much as actual numbers to me

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Per 36 makes an apples to apples comparison. The problems with per-36 comparisons, is when people try to compare a player that averages, say, 30mpg to a player that averages 10mpg.

    In Roy averages 6.7rebs in 26mins over his 6yr career.
    DD averaged 9.0rebs in 30mins over his 10yr Pacer tenure.
    Rik averaged 6.1rebs in 27mins over his 12yr career.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Per 36 makes an apples to apples comparison. The problems with per-36 comparisons, is when people try to compare a player that averages, say, 30mpg to a player that averages 10mpg.

    In Roy averages 6.7rebs in 26mins over his 6yr career.
    DD averaged 9.0rebs in 30mins over his 10yr Pacer tenure.
    Rik averaged 6.1rebs in 27mins over his 12yr career.
    Thanks for those numbers. To me, the per 36 number is only a hypothetical that doesn't take into account how a player may wear down after X number of minutes, or foul proneness, stamina or health problems that might limit a players minutes - Like Smits' feet.

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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It's funny you should bring up DD. In his 10 seasons playing for the Pacers, he averaged 10.5rebs per 36mins. Roy's per-36 average? 9.3. Is one rebound every 36mins a big enough difference, to explain the differences in opinion about the level of their rebounding?

    EDIT: And just to throw more contextual statistics in here, Rik averaged 8.2 rebs per-36.
    At 7'2", he's a lot bigger than Dale. Roy probably has a good 5 or 6 inch longer reach than Dale.

    Also, Dale was not a tremendous rebounder even if he was better than Hibbert. Where he far exceeds Hibbert is in the toughness category. He may not have had a nose for the ball but good luck taking it away from him or pushing him down and out of the way of rebounding which is half of Roy's issue.

  45. #25
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Myth Buster: Is Roy Hibbert A Bad Rebounder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    Thanks for those numbers. To me, the per 36 number is only a hypothetical that doesn't take into account how a player may wear down after X number of minutes, or foul proneness, stamina or health problems that might limit a players minutes - Like Smits' feet.
    Stamina is indeed part of Roy's issue and he wouldn't be able to maintain the same rate given more minutes. Dale could probably play 50 minutes every night and keep performing because he is one bad dude. He would have knocked the **** out of Lance, btw.

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