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Thread: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Steagles View Post
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    I am definitely in the second group. I don't think this core can win a title. We hit the ceiling midway through last season. That is why I am so ready to retool it. I don't want to have a fringe team every year that will never win a title. I'd rather have a few bad years to create better ones.
    It's obvious that you are in the second group, my friend. Your opinion is understandable but I think that blowing it up would be an even bigger mistake.

    We already have Paul George on the roster. We have the superstar that most lottery teams are looking for. If we surround this superstar with quality teammates then we're always going to be a contender or a dark horse at least.

    The only way for us to become a fringe team is to blow up this core in an attempt to tank and get unlucky in the lottery. If we do this and surround PG with rookies and minimum contract guys then yes we could become a fringe team. If that happens then there's no guarantee that Paul George would want to be here anymore. Needless to say, if we lose Paul George because we tried to "retool" and got unlucky with the ping pong balls we're going to be a bottom feeder for years.

    Look, I understand the "I'd rather have a few bad years to create better ones" mantra. But can anyone guarantee that this is going to happen? Minessota has been in the lottery since 2004 and now they're losing their 2 superstar because of that.
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  3. #152
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    It's obvious that you are in the second group, my friend. Your opinion is understandable but I think that blowing it up would be an even bigger mistake.

    We already have Paul George on the roster. We have the superstar that most lottery teams are looking for. If we surround this superstar with quality teammates then we're always going to be a contender or a dark horse at least.

    The only way for us to become a fringe team is to blow up this core in an attempt to tank and get unlucky in the lottery. If we do this and surround PG with rookies and minimum contract guys then yes we could become a fringe team. If that happens then there's no guarantee that Paul George would want to be here anymore. Needless to say, if we lose Paul George because we tried to "retool" and got unlucky with the ping pong balls we're going to be a bottom feeder for years.

    Look, I understand the "I'd rather have a few bad years to create better ones" mantra. But can anyone guarantee that this is going to happen? Minessota has been in the lottery since 2004 and now they're losing their 2 superstar because of that.
    Retooling does not have to be tanking.

    There is nothing that say's that you have to trade for draft picks and low salary players who won't develop. There is a way to trade decent players for players that have potential but are in situations where they can't get the min. to develop.

    You need look no further than our own history to see that it can be done. We traded an all-star and the defensive anchor or our team Dale Davis for a veritable unknown young player who had potential but just could not get the time to develop in his situation in Jermaine O'Neal & had to take on the contract of Joe Klein (who retired before playing). Yes I know the irony of me using that trade, but it is what it is.

    I'll be the first to admit that there are no guarantees, you can't guarantee that any player will play well for you or for that matter that any draft pick will work out.

    As an example I would never say trade Roy Hibbert for a huge expiring contract and a draft pick (unless you are guaranteed to have a top 4 pick but even then I probably wouldn't do it) however if someone said let's do a sign and trade for Roy Hibbert for Greg Monroe and whatever else it took to make it work I would say yes I probably would do that.

    I would never trade David West for JaVale McGee (as an example) but if someone said in a three team trade you end up with Eric Bledsoe & Kenneth Faried (hey I'm just making these up I have no idea how or if this would work its just an example) and you gave up David West and whoever else then I would say yes, you do that trade.

    People who want to retool (at least me) are not wanting to see the team falter or fall back. We think the team has already peaked and we are not content to be dark horses or just playoff teams.

    The team as constructed will be luck to make the playoffs as it is now next season. What happens when Paul comes back?

    Yes I know we differ greatly on Hibbert and we both just have to agree that neither of us is 100% right on the issue because neither of us can see the future. You may be right and Roy get's mentally straight and becomes a consistent low post threat who rebounds and defends the paint every time he plays and if he does then when Paul comes back we can at least work with that. However there is the possibility that I am right and that Roy will have several games where he will look like an all-star, some games where he will just look like an NBA center and then others where you are wondering how the guy has a contract. He never develops consistency and has to be babied by the rest of the team and when Paul comes back we are just looking at the same thing all over again.

    Neither of us knows for sure.

    But I do know that father time loses to no man and David West is rapidly approaching the age where you wonder how often he can perform.

    We need an injection of speed and athleticism in the front court IMO.

    I digress.

    At the end of the day I was for retooling this team at the forum gathering last season, as anyone who was there can tell you. But by the end of the playoffs I was convinced that the team had hit the wall.


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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    At this point, I am okay with either of the below scenarios:

    1 ) Look for trade for West that could net the Pacers a future Starting PG or PF ( a Legit Starter or Prospect that could be a future Starter ) or look at trade scenarios for Hibbert that could net a permanent ( or temporary replacement ) Center or future Starting PG while making the best run that we can at a 1st round Playoff spot.

    2 ) Hopefully sign Marion, continue with making a competitive run towards the 1st round of the Playoffs ( win or...likely...lose ). This allows the Pacers to continue to put up a quality Product for the Fan Base that can still win some games. Also.....this allow for the option to pursue possible trades of West since we can have Marion start at the PF spot.

    Either way could be considered IMHO valid options.....with a preference for signing Marion since it allows for more options to improve the Team for the long haul. If we look to trade either West or Hibbert...I'd prefer to trade West and keep Hibbert as I think that he's still salvageable and that West will simply be getting older.

    What I don't want is to purposely tank or lose just to get a top Lottery pick. I don't think that this is something that Bird believes in...regardless of the situation.
    Last edited by CableKC; 08-12-2014 at 01:49 PM.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    It looks to me like the Pacers are planning on standing pat. Bird said Marion is looking for a contender, so that knocks us out for this year.

    I look for a 9 man rotation out of Frank. GHill, Solo, Watson, Stuckey, Miles, Hibbert, West, Scola and Mahinmi. The only change that may be made would be if Allen beat out Mahinmi for the back up center spot.

    I said last year and still say Copeland could play 12-13 mpg at SF, but we saw that Frank has no desire to play Copeland...at any position. It's too bad because he has proven that he can provide some offense.

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  9. #155
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Retooling does not have to be tanking.

    There is nothing that say's that you have to trade for draft picks and low salary players who won't develop. There is a way to trade decent players for players that have potential but are in situations where they can't get the min. to develop.
    I agree with that but that's not what is being talked about in this thread.

    Take a look at these posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    What happens when we sneak into the playoffs as the 8 seed and get a bad draft pick for no reason?
    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Worse draft pick, especially if we move from the 9th team in the East to the 7th or 6th. I don't see how getting swept by Cleveland or Chicago helps the Pacers. The three extra games we might win next year because of this shouldn't affect confidence or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Because it's pointless... With Scola and West soon to be gone (and their games on the wrong side of 30). Hibbert's value tanked and questionable consistency issues, Lance gone, PG temporarily gone, etc. it is a throwaway year. Why work hard to lose traction in next year's draft?
    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    It isn't as good as, say, the 12th pick, and for what? A few wins here and there, a playoff stomping, and then we are worse off for when the games actually matter, in 2015-2016. But whatever, I've already made my thoughts on tanking known. I just hate this move for both parties if it ends up happening.
    I have bolded the important words in order to indicate that every single on of those posts is talking about the draft. So, the plan is for the team to be bad enough this season in order to have a higher draft pick, am I right?

    How can a team achieve a higher draft pick? They achieve it by guaranteeing that the team loses more games. What's the most common way to lose more games? You field a worse team on the court.

    You don't get a high draft pick by trading proven players for young players with a lot of potential. You get a high draft pick by trading proven players for future draft picks and fill-ins.

    That's the idea of "retooling" that I have seen proposed in this thread. That's why people are talking about the draft so much and that's why I'm putting the word retool in quotation marks.

    If your plan is to trade some of our proven players for young players with potential then I have no problem with it. The problem with that is that our players have diminished trade value either due to recent poor play (Roy) or due to age (West). Therefore, I cannot see why a team would be willing to part ways with a young player with potential for the players that we can offer.

    I'll give three examples:

    Example #1:

    OKC is willing to give us a couple of their youngsters (mainly Steven Adams, Jeremy Lamb and Andre Roberson since I doubt that Reggie Jackson and the rookies are available) along with a contract to make it work (Perkins in this case) for a proven post presence (West) or a proven rim protector (Hibbert).

    Example #2:

    The Celtics call and say that they would give us their 1st round pick and Tyler Zeller along with some contracts to make it work (Gerald Wallace and Joel Anthony) in exchange for West/Hibbert.

    Example #3:

    The Celtics call and say that they would give us Jeff Green and Kelly Olynyk along with some contracts to make it work (James Young and Phil Pressey) for West/Hibbert.

    Examples #1 and #3 are what can be considered retooling. Example #2 is what could be considered tanking. Which of the above offers is the one that we are most likely to receive? It's obviously #2. Examples #1 and #3 are very improbable at the moment due to the reasons I mentioned above.

    Therefore, I really cannot see how this team could retool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You need look no further than our own history to see that it can be done. We traded an all-star and the defensive anchor or our team Dale Davis for a veritable unknown young player who had potential but just could not get the time to develop in his situation in Jermaine O'Neal & had to take on the contract of Joe Klein (who retired before playing). Yes I know the irony of me using that trade, but it is what it is.
    Dale Davis was coming off an All-Star appearance and a trip to the Finals. To use a phrase that you used in the past (and several people haunted you for that) his trade value could never be higher. And it truly wasn't. None of DD's following seasons surpassed that 99-00 campaign.

    Is there any Pacer that currently has a trade value that is as high as DD's was at the time? No, there isn't. The trade value of our core is currently lower than its worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I'll be the first to admit that there are no guarantees, you can't guarantee that any player will play well for you or for that matter that any draft pick will work out.
    There are no guarantees in anything in life, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As an example I would never say trade Roy Hibbert for a huge expiring contract and a draft pick (unless you are guaranteed to have a top 4 pick but even then I probably wouldn't do it) however if someone said let's do a sign and trade for Roy Hibbert for Greg Monroe and whatever else it took to make it work I would say yes I probably would do that.

    I would never trade David West for JaVale McGee (as an example) but if someone said in a three team trade you end up with Eric Bledsoe & Kenneth Faried (hey I'm just making these up I have no idea how or if this would work its just an example) and you gave up David West and whoever else then I would say yes, you do that trade.

    People who want to retool (at least me) are not wanting to see the team falter or fall back. We think the team has already peaked and we are not content to be dark horses or just playoff teams.
    Ok, it's time for a full disclosure. When I reply to a big post (like this one) I tend to reply seperately for each paragraph or thematic segment. When I do that I usually click on "go advanced" immediatedly and answer directly to the first thematic segment without reading the whole post first (I tend to read the post along the way when I'm answering). Therefore, I didn't read this part before writing down my three examples. If I had read the whole post before replying I would be saving myself a ton of time

    But I already took the time to write the above examples so there's no way in hell that I'm deleting them right now. I'll just leave them be

    I absolutely understand what you mean, Peck. You are suggesting a true retool and not a bottoming out strategy. I would be fine with that. However, I really think that you're the only person in this thread who is talking about a true retool. All the other posts talk about draft picks and that usually means bottoming out and not retooling.

    As I said before, I really don't think that these retooling deals could be available which is why I don't think that we're going to do it after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The team as constructed will be luck to make the playoffs as it is now next season. What happens when Paul comes back?
    In my opinion, we were still contenders before PG's freak injury. Therefore, I believe that we should use this season to improve the cohesion of our already existing core and heal any wounds that last season's chemistry problems created. Giving Solomon Hill important minutes and playoff experience should be a priority as well.

    Then Paul comes back next season and the team is in the same (or possibly even better) shape that it was before the freak injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Yes I know we differ greatly on Hibbert and we both just have to agree that neither of us is 100% right on the issue because neither of us can see the future. You may be right and Roy get's mentally straight and becomes a consistent low post threat who rebounds and defends the paint every time he plays and if he does then when Paul comes back we can at least work with that. However there is the possibility that I am right and that Roy will have several games where he will look like an all-star, some games where he will just look like an NBA center and then others where you are wondering how the guy has a contract. He never develops consistency and has to be babied by the rest of the team and when Paul comes back we are just looking at the same thing all over again.

    Neither of us knows for sure.
    I will agree that our opinions on Roy differ greatly and neither of us knows for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But I do know that father time loses to no man and David West is rapidly approaching the age where you wonder how often he can perform.
    True. If David requested a trade in order to compete for a ring this season then I'd be ok with honoring that request. He gave us a lot and he deserves our respect. I would never trade him to a bottom feeder, though. I hated it when Bird did that to Danny and I wouldn't want to see it happen to David either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    We need an injection of speed and athleticism in the front court IMO.
    We do but I'd prefer it if this injection was given by our back-ups and not our starters. I wouldn't like us to sacrifice the post presence of our starting line-up for speed and athleticism. I wouldn't like to see us become a PnR-heavy team. Those teams never win when it matters, imo. I would like to see us sticking to our post-heavy identity.

    Now, if this injection of speed and athleticism was brought by a player who has a strong post presence then I'd be ok with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I digress.

    At the end of the day I was for retooling this team at the forum gathering last season, as anyone who was there can tell you. But by the end of the playoffs I was convinced that the team had hit the wall.
    Fair enough, Peck. Everyone is allowed to their opinion.
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  11. #156
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    A retooling is on the horizon no doubt, David West is not getting younger, and Hibbert staying here long term could swing either way depending on a number of factors.

    The question is the method. Trading these guys right now at the nadir of their value is a mistake. The upcoming season couldn't be a more perfect opportunity to evaluate what we have.

    I still contend that putting this team in the best possible position to perform on the court is the only viable strategy. It's a strategy toward raising the value of the players in trades, raising the value of the franchise as a destination for possible free agents, AND putting butts in the seats (yes, ownership does care about this).

    Remember how this is a thread about adding Marion? People asked "what's the point?" The point is to win!

    Any talk of pinning our hopes on the draft or tanking is "goodbye Paul George" welcome to years and years of lottery hell, to my ears.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 08-12-2014 at 04:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    A retooling is on the horizon no doubt, David West is not getting younger, and Hibbert staying here long term could swing either way depending on a number of factors.

    The question is the method. Trading these guys right now at the nadir of their value is a mistake. The upcoming season couldn't be a more perfect opportunity to evaluate what we have.

    I still contend that putting this team in the best possible position to perform on the court is the only viable strategy. It's a strategy toward raising the value of the players in trades, raising the value of the franchise as a destination for possible free agents, AND putting butts in the seats (yes, ownership does care about this).

    Remember how this is a thread about adding Marion? People asked "what's the point?" The point is to win!

    Any talk of pinning our hopes on the draft or tanking is "goodbye Paul George" welcome to years and years of lottery hell, to my ears.
    My guess is that Teams won't be concerned about what West can or cannot do.....everyone knows which West will show up.....the problem is that no one knows which version of Hibbert will show up.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Given what we know now would anyone be giving West/Hibbert/Hill good money and multiple years? Father time isn't kind to anyone as stated above so how much do we invest in those three? Retooling is not getting rid of everyone in one fell swoop but phasing out contracts one or two per year for people we don't see as long term contributors. some people think that we can get lucky in the draft and others see the draft as a total disaster. The reality lies somewhere in between. However, having money to spend on free agents is probably the easiest way to get better.

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    History has clearly shown that if you want a ring, a key contributor on your team MUST have been a top 5 pick at some point in their career. I don't believe there is a single exception to that rule since 1980 or earlier. The Pacers do not have that and while you can wish for a championship all you want, you simply are not likely to get one without tanking or being incredibly fortunate in a trade. This is not LA or Miami Beach where stars decide to put down roots.

  17. #160

    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    I seem to be seeing quite a few folks talking about, if we do this or that, PG 13 will just leave? Are we forgetting that PG is just starting a 5 year contract? He's not leaving until the FO says he is. Personally I think that's over looking how dedicated PG is to the team and the game. Would he be happy with a trade to the Clipper's? Probably. Would he be wild about a trade like the one we made with Ganger? I doubt it.

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousy47 View Post
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    I seem to be seeing quite a few folks talking about, if we do this or that, PG 13 will just leave? Are we forgetting that PG is just starting a 5 year contract? He's not leaving until the FO says he is. Personally I think that's over looking how dedicated PG is to the team and the game. Would he be happy with a trade to the Clipper's? Probably. Would he be wild about a trade like the one we made with Ganger? I doubt it.
    PG isn't going anywhere. Also, keep in mind that he just suffered a horrid injury and he signed a max contract. Teams will be weary of that
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    History has clearly shown that if you want a ring, a key contributor on your team MUST have been a top 5 pick at some point in their career. I don't believe there is a single exception to that rule since 1980 or earlier. The Pacers do not have that and while you can wish for a championship all you want, you simply are not likely to get one without tanking or being incredibly fortunate in a trade. This is not LA or Miami Beach where stars decide to put down roots.
    Because Paul George esque players usually aren't around outside the top 5, if the draft was redone he would e #1, so why does it matter if he ended up being #10?

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    History has clearly shown that if you want a ring, a key contributor on your team MUST have been a top 5 pick at some point in their career. I don't believe there is a single exception to that rule since 1980 or earlier. The Pacers do not have that and while you can wish for a championship all you want, you simply are not likely to get one without tanking or being incredibly fortunate in a trade. This is not LA or Miami Beach where stars decide to put down roots.
    Kobe was drafted at #13
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Kobe was drafted at #13
    What number was his championship teammate Shaq drafted?

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Kobe was drafted at #13
    I know you guys know how to read. Shaq was #1 and Pau was #3 and both were integral for those championships. Again, no team has won a title where a key contributor (normally one of the team's best players) was not picked in the top 5. Find an example where this is true.

    Also, Kobe was picked at 18 years of age and that doesn't happen anymore. He would have been picked much higher had he played in college.

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    What number was his championship teammate Shaq drafted?
    Thank you. At least someone here understands. Since 1980 there is not a single team that has won a title where one of the very best players was not picked in the top 5 of a draft. There is no precedent where a team with picks in the teens and #10 like the Pacers has ever won a title and honestly the Pacers' odds just got a lot longer this summer.

  26. #167
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    ^^ Shaq wasnt a Laker in '09 or '10
    2013-2014 Pacer fan's asperations...

  27. #168

    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    I disagree with the "you need a top 5 draft pick" argument. You need a top 5 draft class player yea I will agree with that, but why does it matter if the guy ends up being the #1 player in a draft if he goes #10, because he wasn't selected in the top 5 he isn't good enough?

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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    ^^ Shaq wasnt a Laker in '09 or '10
    Pau was at #3 and without him Kobe would not have won.

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Lakers in '09 and '10... Kobe was by far the best player on that squad... Not to mention '11 Mavs, Dirk was selected #9
    2013-2014 Pacer fan's asperations...

  31. #171
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion to sign with Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    I disagree with the "you need a top 5 draft pick" argument. You need a top 5 draft class player yea I will agree with that, but why does it matter if the guy ends up being the #1 player in a draft if he goes #10, because he wasn't selected in the top 5 he isn't good enough?
    What you say makes sense, but there truly is no precedent. Also, it's not a top 5 draft pick that matters. It's that IF one of your team's best players was picked in the top 5. There is not a single instance where a team has ever won a title in the NBA where that is not true. The Pacers, if they ever could win with this crew, would be setting a new precedent after decades of that not happening.

  32. #172
    Bring Back Bender bballpacen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Pau was at #3 and without him Kobe would not have won.
    Lets look at your post right before this one...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Thank you. At least someone here understands. Since 1980 there is not a single team that has won a title where one of the very best players was not picked in the top 5 of a draft. There is no precedent where a team with picks in the teens and #10 like the Pacers has ever won a title and honestly the Pacers' odds just got a lot longer this summer.
    Now, if you are going to tell me that Pau was the best player on that Laker team, or that Tyson Chandler (or even Kidd at that point in his career) were the best players on that team, then you might want to go back and rewatch games from those seasons...
    2013-2014 Pacer fan's asperations...

  33. #173
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    History has clearly shown that if you want a ring, a key contributor on your team MUST have been a top 5 pick at some point in their career. I don't believe there is a single exception to that rule since 1980 or earlier. The Pacers do not have that and while you can wish for a championship all you want, you simply are not likely to get one without tanking or being incredibly fortunate in a trade. This is not LA or Miami Beach where stars decide to put down roots.
    Evan Turner was the #2 pick in the '10 Draft. Did the fact that he was the #2 pick make him play better for us when we were in a position to win a ring last year? No, it didn't.

    Paul George was the #10 pick of that same draft. Don't you think that the draft position of those two would be reversed if the draft was redone?

    History has shown that if you want a ring you need a superstar (or a historically amazing defense in Detroit's case). The draft position of that superstar doesn't really matter.

    Unless you don't think that PG is a superstar. Is this what your post is about?
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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  34. #174
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by bballpacen View Post
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    Lakers in '09 and '10... Kobe was by far the best player on that squad... Not to mention '11 Mavs, Dirk was selected #9
    Without Chandler in the middle, Dirk would still without be a ring. Chandler of course was picked #2. I agree on Kobe, but the rule still stands. In fact, I think it might require a top 3 or 4 pick...again as a KEY contributor.

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  36. #175
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shawn Marion meets with Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Evan Turner was the #2 pick in the '10 Draft. Did the fact that he was the #2 pick make him play better for us when we were in a position to win a ring last year? No, it didn't.

    Paul George was the #10 pick of that same draft. Don't you think that the draft position of those two would be reversed if the draft was redone?

    History has shown that if you want a ring you need a superstar (or a historically amazing defense in Detroit's case). The draft position of that superstar doesn't really matter.

    Unless you don't think that PG is a superstar. Is this what your post is about?
    No, I think that you are also missing the point. It's not that you can't pick Tony Parker in the second round and have him be a superstar. It's that Tim Duncan was on that team too and he was picked #1. Find a single exception.

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