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Thread: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    This would be a big story in NBA circles in the U.S. If there were any truth to this I'd think ESPN or S.I. would have something on it. I'm not buying it.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    I only wish this were true. I have zero belief that this was ever official.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I only wish this were true. I have zero belief that this was ever official.
    I mean...really? I know you aren't Hibbert's biggest fan, but this deal would completely change this team and it's identity. The defense would be demonstrably worse, even with a healthy Paul George. Who is protecting the rim? You trust Mahinmi to play starter minutes? Or do you just want to open the turnstiles and have a West/Scola frontcourt. Dragic would improve the offense, but I don't think the offense would improve as much as the defense would get a serious downgrade. Besides, as awesome as Dragic was last year, is anyone else the slightest bit concerned that he's been in the NBA for what, 6, 7 years and just now broke out in a free wheeling system and offense like they had in Phoenix? I don't think this trade makes sense for either team--both us and the Suns would have to dramatically alter our styles of play in such a deal.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I mean...really? I know you aren't Hibbert's biggest fan, but this deal would completely change this team and it's identity. The defense would be demonstrably worse, even with a healthy Paul George. Who is protecting the rim? You trust Mahinmi to play starter minutes? Or do you just want to open the turnstiles and have a West/Scola frontcourt. Dragic would improve the offense, but I don't think the offense would improve as much as the defense would get a serious downgrade. Besides, as awesome as Dragic was last year, is anyone else the slightest bit concerned that he's been in the NBA for what, 6, 7 years and just now broke out in a free wheeling system and offense like they had in Phoenix? I don't think this trade makes sense for either team--both us and the Suns would have to dramatically alter our styles of play in such a deal.
    As far as I am concerned, and I know this will not be popular, but this current version of the Pacers has no identity and the team has changed dramatically whether some people want to admit it or not.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As far as I am concerned, and I know this will not be popular, but this current version of the Pacers has no identity and the team has changed dramatically whether some people want to admit it or not.
    It won't be popular because it's flat out wrong. You can not like the "identity" and all, that's fine, but we're pretty clearly a team that slows you down, forces you into crappy looks, and defends those crappy shots well. I don't understand how you can watch every game we play and come away thinking there isn't a pretty obvious gameplan.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    It won't be popular because it's flat out wrong. You can not like the "identity" and all, that's fine, but we're pretty clearly a team that slows you down, forces you into crappy looks, and defends those crappy shots well. I don't understand how you can watch every game we play and come away thinking there isn't a pretty obvious gameplan.
    Obviously you need to change your user name to carnac then, as you have somehow seen the current version of the Indiana Pacers play while the rest of us have to wait.

    Or are you one of those people who think that our perimeter defense only serves to set up the worlds greatest shot blocker, who has never led the league in blocked shots for a season.

    Paul George is one of the best wing defenders in the NBA if he's not the best.

    Lance Stephenson had his moments when he could play good defense, he also had moments he didn't which I freely admit to.

    You have lost 2 of the 5 players who did this and honestly one of those two was simply the best defender you had on the team.

    So unless you are going to claim that C.J. Miles is going to play the same level of defense as Paul George, no this team has no identity.

    Thank God you didn't say Smash Mouth or I would have had to have


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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Even if Roy has his head on straight this year, he's still going to be absolutely exhausted by the end of the season. PG stopped a lot of stuff at the perimeter from ever getting to Roy in the first place. Roy will get worn out this season by the amount of stuff that gets taken to the paint. Teams will kill us with speed this season without PG on the perimeter.

    You simply cannot lose two players of the caliber of PG and Lance and not have a catastrophic loss of identity. This is a fractured team at the moment.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Obviously you need to change your user name to carnac then, as you have somehow seen the current version of the Indiana Pacers play while the rest of us have to wait.

    Or are you one of those people who think that our perimeter defense only serves to set up the worlds greatest shot blocker, who has never led the league in blocked shots for a season.

    Paul George is one of the best wing defenders in the NBA if he's not the best.

    Lance Stephenson had his moments when he could play good defense, he also had moments he didn't which I freely admit to.

    You have lost 2 of the 5 players who did this and honestly one of those two was simply the best defender you had on the team.

    So unless you are going to claim that C.J. Miles is going to play the same level of defense as Paul George, no this team has no identity.

    Thank God you didn't say Smash Mouth or I would have had to have
    Having Roy Hibbert on the roster basically guarantees that is more or less how we are going to play. Without arguably our two best offensive players from last year, I think our identity will be even more based around slowing the pace and funneling offensive players into the lane where they have to deal with Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Even if Roy has his head on straight this year, he's still going to be absolutely exhausted by the end of the season. PG stopped a lot of stuff at the perimeter from ever getting to Roy in the first place. Roy will get worn out this season by the amount of stuff that gets taken to the paint. Teams will kill us with speed this season without PG on the perimeter.

    You simply cannot lose two players of the caliber of PG and Lance and not have a catastrophic loss of identity. This is a fractured team at the moment.
    It's not going to make us lose our identity--it's just going to make us a worse version of who we are.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Having Roy Hibbert on the roster basically guarantees that is more or less how we are going to play. Without arguably our two best offensive players from last year, I think our identity will be even more based around slowing the pace and funneling offensive players into the lane where they have to deal with Hibbert.
    You say that as though other teams don't know this and won't counter this.

    Unless Frank is going to break down and just run a 2-3 zone then every single team in the NBA will just make Roy's man run a high pick and roll and then its off to the races. Not to mention others that will just simply put Roy's man on the perimeter.

    Also we have absolutely zero idea how well either of our wing players is going to be able to defend and thus filter their man to Roy. Let's not forget Paul made up for a lot of sins with his ability to disrupt passing lanes and very fast hands.


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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You say that as though other teams don't know this and won't counter this.

    Unless Frank is going to break down and just run a 2-3 zone then every single team in the NBA will just make Roy's man run a high pick and roll and then its off to the races. Not to mention others that will just simply put Roy's man on the perimeter.

    Also we have absolutely zero idea how well either of our wing players is going to be able to defend and thus filter their man to Roy. Let's not forget Paul made up for a lot of sins with his ability to disrupt passing lanes and very fast hands.
    I mean, we have been doing it for years. Other teams already know it's coming, it's just a good system when you have someone like Hibbert back there to protect the rim. You can try to pull him away from the rim as teams have tried with varying degrees of success, but you have to have the personnel to do it, and not many teams do. It's obviously a better system when our perimeter defenders are good, but with Hibbert there we are pretty much guaranteed to have a top 10 defense. Just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You say that as though other teams don't know this and won't counter this.

    Unless Frank is going to break down and just run a 2-3 zone then every single team in the NBA will just make Roy's man run a high pick and roll and then its off to the races. Not to mention others that will just simply put Roy's man on the perimeter.

    Also we have absolutely zero idea how well either of our wing players is going to be able to defend and thus filter their man to Roy. Let's not forget Paul made up for a lot of sins with his ability to disrupt passing lanes and very fast hands.
    So far other than Atlanta no other team has found a way to really exploit Hibbert's slowness consistently. None of those tricks are new. Just you have to have the right players to execute them. This means, players who can shoot from 19+ feet. Most teams don't have centers who can do that consistently.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    So far other than Atlanta no other team has found a way to really exploit Hibbert's slowness consistently. None of those tricks are new. Just you have to have the right players to execute them. This means, players who can shoot from 19+ feet. Most teams don't have centers who can do that consistently.
    Cleveland will be able to do it with Love if they decide to play small with a Love/LeBron front court, much like Miami tried to do with Bosh/LeBron in the frontcourt. The problem there is that LeBron wants absolutely nothing to do with defending David West on the other end of the court. Hence why the Shane Battiers of the world would defend West in the Conference Finals the past two years.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    So far other than Atlanta no other team has found a way to really exploit Hibbert's slowness consistently. None of those tricks are new. Just you have to have the right players to execute them. This means, players who can shoot from 19+ feet. Most teams don't have centers who can do that consistently.
    The Phoenix Suns are on the phone and would like to have a conversation with you.

    Last edited by Peck; 08-09-2014 at 02:24 AM.


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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Ouch Peck, did you have to do that?
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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The Phoenix Suns are on the phone and would like to have a conversation with you.

    Complete tangent here, but I am really excited to catch some Suns games in person this year. If they weren't eviscerating the Pacers, they were a blast to watch, especially when Dragic/Bledsoe are playing together.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    That Gerald Green fadeaway corner three when the game is 23 all is just hilarious.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The Phoenix Suns are on the phone and would like to have a conversation with you.

    It was Gerald Green that killed us that night. 3 days later we were getting killed by Wilson Chandler in exactly the same manner. That was the WC trip in which our perimeter defense first started to falter. I fail to see what that has to do with Roy.

    In any case, I really hope that this report is false.
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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimp View Post
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    Probably would've pursued Monroe or tried to pry Sullinger from Boston?
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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    It was Gerald Green that killed us that night. 3 days later we were getting killed by Wilson Chandler in exactly the same manner. That was the WC trip in which our perimeter defense first started to falter. I fail to see what that has to do with Roy.

    In any case, I really hope that this report is false.
    Dead on. Paul is a great perimeter defender when he wants to be but he's not the teams best defender.
    This game just like the Atlanta series shows our lack of defending the perimeter. Hibbert was ineffective in the Atlanta series but Paul and Lance did a terrible job on the perimeter in our losses. It's strange they get such a pass on this.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As far as I am concerned, and I know this will not be popular, but this current version of the Pacers has no identity and the team has changed dramatically whether some people want to admit it or not.
    If you're talking about just next year then you're right or at least we don't know what we have yet but we still have a great front court combination in Hibbert and West. If you're talking overall then I'd disagree. Losing Lance won't change our identity and I think we're all assuming Paul will be back with the core we have. When that happens we'll still be a great defensive team.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    For better or worse Hibbert is basically immovable. On one hand he is owed a bunch of money over the next two years and was the running joke during the second half of the season and playoffs.

    On the other hand he has been the anchor on the NBA's best defensive team over the past two seasons.

    So what is he worth to the Pacers (given our style of play) vs. his value to other teams? With all of these factors playing a role in looking at Hibbert I am not sure how you could get value by trading him at his low point.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    For better or worse Hibbert is basically immovable. On one hand he is owed a bunch of money over the next two years and was the running joke during the second half of the season and playoffs.

    On the other hand he has been the anchor on the NBA's best defensive team over the past two seasons.

    So what is he worth to the Pacers (given our style of play) vs. his value to other teams? With all of these factors playing a role in looking at Hibbert I am not sure how you could get value by trading him at his low point.
    Just because he may or may not have been offered and ultimaltely declined for a top 10 MVP Candidate on an 8 million dollar deal, does not make him 'immovable'. That is like the Pacers calling Cleveland and offering an injured Paul George for Lebron, if Cleveland declines that doesn't make an injured PG immovable. He would still have tons of value.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The Phoenix Suns are on the phone and would like to have a conversation with you.

    you can't pick one game to show, that doesn't equate them figuring us out.

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    Default Re: Pacers offer Hibbert, Copeland, and cash for Dragic; Offer Declined

    Quote Originally Posted by kent beckley View Post
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    Just because he may or may not have been offered and ultimaltely declined for a top 10 MVP Candidate on an 8 million dollar deal, does not make him 'immovable'. That is like the Pacers calling Cleveland and offering an injured Paul George for Lebron, if Cleveland declines that doesn't make an injured PG immovable. He would still have tons of value.
    I agree Hibbert still has value, but I'm still not convinced Dragic would make us much better than we were last year. By the way, he finished 17th in the MVP voting with 3 votes, 2 more than Conley. If we could add him without losing Hibbert then I think it is a move forward.

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