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Thread: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

  1. #1
    Live Long and Prosper Shade's Avatar
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    Default Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game


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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Ok... first time I've watched the video after reading about it several times...
    Not very sportsman-like BUT not nearly the melee I was expecting. Giant over-reaction possibly even from canceling the game to (If I read it correctly) canceling the season for both teams.

    Throw some players out. Shoot some technical FT's... and finish the game. Suspend players that threw punch(es)... Maybe ban a fan or two from the gym and move on.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    When I was in high school, we had a WAY worse brawl than this with another team. Guess what punishment we got? Our coaches were each suspended for one game. I'll give you one guess what the difference was between this most recent situation and that one. Well, there were actually two differences, but there's one REALLY big difference.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    When I was in high school, we had a WAY worse brawl than this with another team. Guess what punishment we got? Our coaches were each suspended for one game. I'll give you one guess what the difference was between this most recent situation and that one. Well, there were actually two differences, but there's one REALLY big difference.
    Media coverage? My guess is there was no video of your brawl on a national sports blog or Sportscenter.

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Eh, maybe, but the same difference is why there wasn't any media coverage. Seriously there was barely any mention of it outside of a blurb in the local papers. Certainly no police involvement. Difference # 1, outside of one or two bench players, we were all white kids, would have been difficult to drum up national coverage for that. Difference #2 and WAY down the list from #1, both of our coaches were 30+ year vets and the IHSAA would have had a statewide coaching mutiny on their hands if they had done to them what they did to these two teams.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Regarding difference #1, I figured that's where you were going with it, and I don't buy it. What year was your brawl? Is there video of it available?

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    The only video of it available is the coaches videos that the managers take for scouting. Nobody ever asked for that video, and our coach didn't exactly go out of his way to make sure it never saw the light of day. In fact I'm sure copies of that video were distributed to other coaches just like any scouting video would be. This was 1994 so 99% of the audience was not yet carrying a phone let alone one that took video. When I say ours was WAY worse I mean it, we had kids go to the hospital and teeth knocked out. And ours wasn't even the result of a hard foul it was one of their stupid cheerleaders back flipping on to the floor during play and got knocked out of her shoes by one of our players running down the court.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    The only video of it available is the coaches videos that the managers take for scouting. Nobody ever asked for that video, and our coach didn't exactly go out of his way to make sure it never saw the light of day. In fact I'm sure copies of that video were distributed to other coaches just like any scouting video would be. This was 1994 so 99% of the audience was not yet carrying a phone let alone one that took video. When I say ours was WAY worse I mean it, we had kids go to the hospital and teeth knocked out. And ours wasn't even the result of a hard foul it was one of their stupid cheerleaders back flipping on to the floor during play and got knocked out of her shoes by one of our players running down the court.
    And you don't think that this played as big a part in it going virtually unnoticed as the color of the players' skin?

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    The New Gold Swagger travmil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    If it had anything to do with it, in my opinion it's pretty far down the list compared to the reasons I mentioned above. Just my opinion but of the two of us I'm the only one who was there so what do I know...

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    If it had anything to do with it, in my opinion it's pretty far down the list compared to the reasons I mentioned above. Just my opinion but of the two of us I'm the only one who was there so what do I know...
    I just think there is a big difference, beyond race, with something that was seen by millions nationwide on ESPN, Deadspin, Twitter, etc. and something that only was seen by a few hundred (few thousand maybe?) people in the gym that night.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    I can see both sides of it, but I've had 20 years to think about what happened that night and compare to events before and after. I'm convinced.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Boo race card boo

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    I can see where other things might have contributed to our situation being handled differently. But ask youself, do you really truly believe that if this happened between two teams full of middle and upper class white kids, would the two teams and coaches have received the same punishment as these two teams for the same thing? There's no way on earth I believe they would have, but I guess that's just me.

  19. #14

    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    I think theirs a bigger picture here, but I'm not gonna comment.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    I believe the age of the internet, and the ability to get something like this online instantly, and the GIP("General Internet Public") constantly frothing at the mouth for retribution to be doled out in circumstances such as this has a much, much larger effect on the virality of this instance over yours. As such, the punishment will have to match the online outrage. Such is the way now.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I can see where other things might have contributed to our situation being handled differently. But ask youself, do you really truly believe that if this happened between two teams full of middle and upper class white kids, would the two teams and coaches have received the same punishment as these two teams for the same thing? There's no way on earth I believe they would have, but I guess that's just me.
    I believe the video is what forced them to act and hand down a severe punishment. Without the video it wouldn't have been much if any different than the handling of your case. Now, fast forward all this time and if your scenario was to happen now, the punishment handed down might be different. So I see your point there. The situation would never be ignored though. The video saw to that. The handling of your situation would've been much different in this day and age.

    The lost season IMHO was a severe over-reaction.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I believe the video is what forced them to act and hand down a severe punishment. Without the video it wouldn't have been much if any different than the handling of your case. Now, fast forward all this time and if your scenario was to happen now, the punishment handed down might be different. So I see your point there. The situation would never be ignored though. The video saw to that. The handling of your situation would've been much different in this day and age.

    The lost season IMHO was a severe over-reaction.
    I definitely agree that taking the season away from both teams was pretty ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I definitely agree that taking the season away from both teams was pretty ridiculous.
    Like I said, nowadays when the general public sees this stuff they must have their pound of flesh.

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  27. #19
    here's to orgies Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    This exact same scenario happened in Hoosiers, literally the exact same. But those were the glory days when boys were boys and blah blah blah.

    Also, Hoosiers sucks.

  28. #20
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    We now live in a world of overreaction. If this happened in '94 I doubt they would go to such an extreme, but everything is zero tolerance anymore. So instead of handing out reasonable punishments everything is over the top.

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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    IHSAA has canceled seasons for less.

    It is not the first time the IHSAA has taken such a drastic measure. Providence was suspended from the boys basketball tournament in 2004-05 for violations of administrative responsibility and undue influence (recruiting athletes). That ruling came prior to the season and Providence was allowed to play the regular season while on probation (and went 19-1).

    Similarly, Scecina's boys basketball program was placed on probation for the 2003-04 season and suspended from participating in the tournament for administrative responsibility and undue influence.

    Brebeuf Jesuit was banned from the tournament in 1992 after the IHSAA found the school guilty of undue influence following the enrollment of freshman Justin Farley, who had been in the Pike system.

    However, the IHSAA's ruling on Hammond and Griffith is more aligned with a pair of incidents from several decades ago.

    In 1972, Gary West lost in the state championship to Connersville 80-63 at Assembly Hall in Bloomington. Following the game, there was fighting and rioting in the parking lot that eventually resulted in the IHSAA suspending Gary West from its membership for one year.

    Muncie Central was the defending boys basketball state champion in 1963 when it was a rocked by a one-year suspension from the IHSAA that impacted all sports. The IHSAA investigated the Muncie Central program after a fight at a holiday tournament in Frankfort in December of 1963. Anderson and Marion were also placed on probation, but the harshest penalty was handed out to Muncie Central, which could not participate against other high school teams in any sport for a full calendar year due to the fight.

    In 2011, following a fight between North Central and Lawrence North in a sectional game, Tim Bass (North Central) and Michael Chandler (Lawrence North) were ejected. The IHSAA later suspended North Central standout D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera for one game for his part in the fight.
    http://www.indystar.com/story/sports...rawl/23138757/
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  30. #22
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    The context that is lacking is what was the depth of these past fights? I'm having a hard time even putting the 'brawl' label on what was on the video. I expected to see a knockdown, drag out, bench clearing, 15 minute, riot gear, blood, grandma trampled, melee based on the headlines and the punishment. It's not really what I saw when I saw the video.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  31. #23
    here's to orgies Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    http://www.nwitimes.com/conferences/...eG4XmI.twitter

    The IHSAA was ordered by a Lake County judge to redraw boys basketball Sectional 17 to include Hammond and Griffith while the case to attempt to overturn a season-ending ruling will be heard Monday.

    Lake County Civil Court judge John R. Pera ordered Friday that the Hammond and Griffith teams can practice for the first time since a Feb. 7 in-game brawl prompted the IHSAA to end their respective seasons.

    After a hard foul by Hammond's Tim Echoles sent Griffith's Anthony Murray into a wall in the first quarter of the game, a bench-clearing fight took place and officials immediately ended the game. On Feb. 10, IHSAA commissioner Bobby Cox told administrators from both schools that the teams' regular seasons were done and that neither would be allowed to play in the postseason.

    Both teams appealed the ruling later that week and were heard by the IHSAA Review Committee on Feb. 20. Thursday, the Review Committee issued its findings that it would not overturn Cox's original ruling.

    Lawyers for the Hammond and Griffith school systems took their case to civil court. The hearing is set for 8:30 a.m. Monday.

    "We are doing what the court has asked us to do and we'll be there on Monday to represent the association," Cox said Friday.

    The IHSAA was ordered to redraw the sectional by 5 p.m. Friday to include Hammond and Griffith in the bracket. The sectional, which is scheduled to be held at Hammond Civic Center, was originally drawn Sunday, excluding both teams.
    boom

  32. #24
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    If the IHSAA doesn't have the power to punish schools, then there's no reason for the association. When your school agrees to become a member of the association, you give them disciplinary power.

    If the courts are going to take action, then maybe the correct course is assualt charges. That way those responsible can be held responsible, and the school gets what they want. But I bet people would be pissy about that too.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-27-2015 at 05:50 PM.
    ďJust because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.Ē ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

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  34. #25
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    Default Re: Brawl Breaks Out At Indiana HS Basketball Game

    I don't have a problem with them suing. The judge is probably going to say exactly what you just said but if they feel they were wronged, the punishment didn't fit the crime, etc.... then they have to play it out: Appeal the IHSAA and then take them to court if they lose the appeal. That is what civil courts are for. Let the two sides be heard and render a verdict based on the arguments/facts presented and the law as it's written.

    Of course I can't imagine how they are not spending taxpayer money to fight this battle... so there's that...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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