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Thread: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

  1. #101
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I'd watch all the games, but I'd defer to my fiance most nights and watch her team on the TV and watch a replay of the Pacers on my ipad later.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I will be at every game. No matter the win total, always something to look forward to at the games. From player development to battling to make that 8th spot in playoffs, I will still be right there and loving it.

    Who knows, maybe Rudez steps in and gives way more than expected.

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  4. #103
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So many good responses, thanks.

    The point of this thread is to ask how people advocating tanking in any flavor will make it worthwhile for the team DURING the tanking period. It's not really even about why to tank/how to tank/what is or isn't tanking/etc. - I think I've been pretty clear how I feel on that subject.

    My concern is really that, since losing does not guarantee a top pick in the NBA (the way it does in the NFL), there's no real marketing campaign to hang our hats on and get people to come out and cheerfully enjoy losing games in the assurance that the team is going to get better (no real "suck for Luck" situation).

    And even at that, my concern isn't the casual fan as such, though they are the ones who have the greatest effect on attendance. My concern is for those advocating purposely putting a poorer team on the floor than it would be possible to do (that's what is being discussed here, whether by trading for young unproven assets, getting rid of players for garbage, or somehow convincing coaches to play bad players) - what do you think will make it a more worthwhile activity than just a vague hope that the Pacers win the lottery? What happens if we don't and we have young players who didn't work out plus a rookie a long way from developing when PG comes back? Do we end up advocating trading PG to a contender so he can get his ring since we failed him so miserably?

    One point for those continually pointing out the need for a top draft pick to win - very few of those multiple top picks were drafted by the team that won the championship with them. And the top picks who were integral to a championship were a very small percentage compared to the top picks who were NOT. Therefore, to my mind, there has to be SOMETHING more than the basketball equivalent of deciding to stop paying rent and invest in Hoosier Lotto tickets involved in going for those top picks instead of trying to continue instilling a winning mentality into your locker room.

    One more thing - the guys currently on the Pacers team now fully realize just how special it is to have a team firing on all cylinders the way it was the beginning of last season. They aren't likely to let that slip away again, should the chance present itself. Bringing in all young guys and starting over with development might be good for talent in the long run, but we completely lose that experience and the desire that goes with it. Do we think that PG's desire will be enough to carry a team a la Jordan? Or will it be more like pre-Miami Lebron?
    There is no one answer. No fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a D league roster get handed their butts every game by every team in the NBA.

    But guess what, fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a group of middling players who have zero chance to win a title and no superstar to see for a show either.

    We've had this debate before. The casual fans will show up to watch one of the best teams in the NBA (last season team certainly fit that bill) or they might show up a few games to watch a superstar type player who was exciting (Paul also fit that bill).

    Remember during the O'brien years we really weren't one of the worst teams in the NBA record wise, we were but they would always manage to get into 9th or 10th, and the fans stayed away buy the thousands.

    I've already made it clear, before Paul ever got injured and even before Lance left, I thought we needed to retool the team. Well thanks to Lance's decision and Paul's injury the team has essentially been gutted. The trio of an old West/Hibbert & Hill strikes fear into the heart of no one and I'm sorry but I think 30 wins might be a challenge for this team, we will see, but if you asked me right now that is where I think I would put us.

    So to me I think it would make much more sense to try and get help in here for Paul for 2016 when he can come back healthy and ready to go.

    I'm sorry but the window for this team as constructed IMO closed with that loss to Miami. Lance Stephenson leaving to me further sealed the window shut. Paul George's injury barred and shuttered the window like a Miami shop keeper sealing up for a Hurricane.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  6. #104
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    To answer Bill's original question:

    I will support the team the same way I did during the JOB years. As long as we don't pull a Philadelphia 76ER type of tank job, I'm committed to this franchise for better or worse. I'd continue to renew with my half season ticket package.

    I honestly feel that we have as much of a justifiable reason to trade some of our veteran players as we do to hold on to them.

    Just to add - for those comparing this to the Colts situation - I think the only difference here is that we do not have an Andrew Luck type of prospect coming out of next year's draft. That's almost the equivalent to a Lebron James type of player being in the draft.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    In my opinion there are 2 ways to tank.

    1. The players just give up and put forth a half a$$ effort.
    2. Management brings in young players to get them some playing time and build for the future.

    Personally, I don't think the Pacers will tank, but any team that only gives a half a$$ effort will not get my support...at least financial support.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Bills, the gist of it is they are going to be losing anyway. The playoffs at all might be a pipe dream let alone advancing. And to what end? Nobody is suggesting 0-82 and there will be very little difference between 35-47 or 28-54 for example. 41-41 would be a miracle itself and again to what end? What is there to gain by milking out maybe an extra 10 wins, staying the course, and throwing the kitchen sink at games to make it happen versus thinking bigger picture at this point?

    We're not talking about blowing up the '99 team or the 2000 team versus giving them another run. FA, age, and now a significant injury has decimated this team for the short term.
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  11. #107
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    There is no one answer. No fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a D league roster get handed their butts every game by every team in the NBA.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But guess what, fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a group of middling players who have zero chance to win a title and no superstar to see for a show either.
    Disagree.

    As I've said before, all casual fans want is for there to be a good chance their team is going to win when they come to the games. If that happens - and all it really takes is an over 50% record at home, I think - they will CREATE a local "superstar" to be the guy they cheer for. We've seen it happen over and over, to the point even people here on PD get accused of just being fanboys for some player who "isn't really that good".

    If the truth of the NBA is that teams need to either be directly in the running for a championship or have a nationally anointed superstar to cheer for in order to survive, it would be a 16 team league.

    Market this team as guys who play basketball hard and fight every minute, prove it by actually winning some games rather than getting laughed off the floor, and there will be strong attendance. I'm not quite stupid enough to think sellouts - though I'd bet should the team by some miracle go undefeated at home they would start drawing huge crowds to see them win - but we'd not be back to 8000+ butts in the seats.

    Using the JOB years forgets that there were multiple reasons not to watch the team - not just the record, but the continuing recovery from both the brawl stigma and the retirement of the most popular player for over a decade. Here, now, we only have one thing to fight against - the talent level.
    BillS

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  12. #108
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The trio of an old West/Hibbert & Hill strikes fear into the heart of no one and I'm sorry but I think 30 wins might be a challenge for this team, we will see, but if you asked me right now that is where I think I would put us.
    I know you're way down on Roy and I'm not sure how you feel about Hill and his ability, but do you really feel the Bulls roster minus D.Rose is close to 20 wins better than what the Pacers will have next year?

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    There is no one answer. No fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a D league roster get handed their butts every game by every team in the NBA.

    But guess what, fans are not going to flock to the fieldhouse to watch a group of middling players who have zero chance to win a title and no superstar to see for a show either.

    We've had this debate before. The casual fans will show up to watch one of the best teams in the NBA (last season team certainly fit that bill) or they might show up a few games to watch a superstar type player who was exciting (Paul also fit that bill).

    Remember during the O'brien years we really weren't one of the worst teams in the NBA record wise, we were but they would always manage to get into 9th or 10th, and the fans stayed away buy the thousands.

    I've already made it clear, before Paul ever got injured and even before Lance left, I thought we needed to retool the team. Well thanks to Lance's decision and Paul's injury the team has essentially been gutted. The trio of an old West/Hibbert & Hill strikes fear into the heart of no one and I'm sorry but I think 30 wins might be a challenge for this team, we will see, but if you asked me right now that is where I think I would put us.

    So to me I think it would make much more sense to try and get help in here for Paul for 2016 when he can come back healthy and ready to go.

    I'm sorry but the window for this team as constructed IMO closed with that loss to Miami. Lance Stephenson leaving to me further sealed the window shut. Paul George's injury barred and shuttered the window like a Miami shop keeper sealing up for a Hurricane.
    I really do not want PG being the primary defensive stopper for the team. He is too valuable offensively.
    I agree with you all tho I felt the team was never going to win at title because of the slowness of the team at the big position. One slow guy maybe but not 2 or 3 slow players. In any case I am ready for a re-tool. Probably will have to wait until the trade deadline to start the process.

    Here is a defensive player. Ron Artest with a stable personality. That is what is needed to pair with PG and then a mobile big. Can we get Miles back? Can we trade for Dragic?

    PG
    Stanley
    Dragic
    Miles
    PF to be determined?

    http://www.nbadraft.net/players/stanley-johnson
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Bills, the gist of it is they are going to be losing anyway. The playoffs at all might be a pipe dream let alone advancing. And to what end? Nobody is suggesting 0-82 and there will be very little difference between 35-47 or 28-54 for example. 41-41 would be a miracle itself and again to what end? What is there to gain by milking out maybe an extra 10 wins, staying the course, and throwing the kitchen sink at games to make it happen versus thinking bigger picture at this point?

    We're not talking about blowing up the '99 team or the 2000 team versus giving them another run. FA, age, and now a significant injury has decimated this team for the short term.
    In all seriousness, do you think that (say) accepting the inevitable, basically telling fans not to bother coming to games this year, developing available young players, and getting a single possibly top-10 pick will put us in a position to win big in 2015-2016? Or will it put us in a position to start rebuilding in 2015-2016, with potentially another 3-4 years before the team is a "contender" again?

    See, to me, I don't think the advantages gained by a single top-10 pick (and don't even talk about getting the #1 pick, it is not going to happen) justify starting from scratch. I don't think we lose that much by gutting it out one year. It takes multiple years of being bad (and sometimes not even by then) to realize the benefits of top-10 picks.

    I'm looking at building long-term loyalty to the franchise rather than continuing on the "if they can't win it all I'll do something else" mentality that is prevalent. That's tilting at windmills, but that's how you create a franchise that survives the inevitable ups and downs.
    BillS

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Ehmmm... I only remember the physical altercation with Evan, who wasnt the brightest either, and a verbal spat with Hill. That Lance got into multiple fights is something I had not heard or read before. Do you happen to have a link to the article stating that?
    It was in the Woj article that Broke the Evan Turner fight, I'll try to find it.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I know you're way down on Roy and I'm not sure how you feel about Hill and his ability, but do you really feel the Bulls roster minus D.Rose is close to 20 wins better than what the Pacers will have next year?
    Minus a healthy or semi healthy Rose? No, not 20 games better but 10-15 sure. A healthy or semi healthy Rose? For sure.


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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    Ehmmm... I only remember the physical altercation with Evan, who wasnt the brightest either, and a verbal spat with Hill. That Lance got into multiple fights is something I had not heard or read before. Do you happen to have a link to the article stating that?
    Oops, I apologize, the quote was "Turner wasn't the first Pacer to lose his temper with Lance, and Stephenson's nature suggests he probably won't be the last" so I remembered it differently and exaggerated it, and I apologize for that. However I think my point still stands that Lance got on the nerves of nearly every Pacer during the season. Here is the link if you are interested.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pacers-...JmMQR2dGlkAw--

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  19. #114
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In all seriousness, do you think that (say) accepting the inevitable, basically telling fans not to bother coming to games this year, developing available young players, and getting a single possibly top-10 pick will put us in a position to win big in 2015-2016? Or will it put us in a position to start rebuilding in 2015-2016, with potentially another 3-4 years before the team is a "contender" again?

    See, to me, I don't think the advantages gained by a single top-10 pick (and don't even talk about getting the #1 pick, it is not going to happen) justify starting from scratch. I don't think we lose that much by gutting it out one year. It takes multiple years of being bad (and sometimes not even by then) to realize the benefits of top-10 picks.

    I'm looking at building long-term loyalty to the franchise rather than continuing on the "if they can't win it all I'll do something else" mentality that is prevalent. That's tilting at windmills, but that's how you create a franchise that survives the inevitable ups and downs.
    Bill at some point in time you are going to have to let this go. This franchise has already survived the inevitable ups and downs and is still standing.

    Every time we have a down year you need to not panic and feel as though Herb is going to move us to Seattle.

    The fans of Indiana are just like fans in any other city/state, they support the team. We have a very strong and in my opinion large core group of die hards. We just are a weak market for casuals. But that is not limited to the Indiana Pacers that is just the nature of central Indiana.

    Okay you don't want to use the O'Brien years and I will agree that for the most part a lot of what you said was right, there was a lot of damage to fix.

    So let's look at another time in our history that the team did exactly what some of us are saying to do now. In 2000 we went to the NBA finals, the very next season we came back to a team that wasn't even close to the team that we left. Your man Walsh decided that we weren't good enough and could not compete with the Lakers (I to this day disagree with this call) so he in essence blew it up and retooled the team.

    Did the fans abandon the franchise? No, we had the normal dip in attendance that you get when you are not a title team but for the most part fans stuck it out. The new fieldhouse had a lot to do with that as well but not that much IMO.

    Fans are not stupid. Nobody is going to be mad at the franchise because something happened that was out of their control. Now some might be mad at the Lance thing but for George, no nobody is going to blame the franchise.

    However not blaming them doesn't mean they are going to take the time to drop money to go watch the team when its 12 degrees in February playing the Sacramento Kings (no offense VF21) when they can just go home turn on their large flat screen TV and watch the game at no additional cost.


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  21. #115
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In all seriousness, do you think that (say) accepting the inevitable, basically telling fans not to bother coming to games this year, developing available young players, and getting a single possibly top-10 pick will put us in a position to win big in 2015-2016? Or will it put us in a position to start rebuilding in 2015-2016, with potentially another 3-4 years before the team is a "contender" again?

    See, to me, I don't think the advantages gained by a single top-10 pick (and don't even talk about getting the #1 pick, it is not going to happen) justify starting from scratch. I don't think we lose that much by gutting it out one year. It takes multiple years of being bad (and sometimes not even by then) to realize the benefits of top-10 picks.

    I'm looking at building long-term loyalty to the franchise rather than continuing on the "if they can't win it all I'll do something else" mentality that is prevalent. That's tilting at windmills, but that's how you create a franchise that survives the inevitable ups and downs.
    You don't tell fans anything. Casual fans won't know the difference and hard core fans will understand it's part of the process. The disconnect seems to be the idea that the team as it is now can win and grow enough to matter for a year or more down the road when there's inevitable changes that will be facing us then anyway. Like I said, losing Lance changed things but losing PG to a bad injury has decimated the immediate future. We can either get ahead of the curve and look at the big picture or tread water. The fans will always return when the team is winning and ultimately contending. We know we'll be getting PG back and hopefully at 100% eventually. The question is what kind of a team will he be coming back to?
    Last edited by Bball; 08-04-2014 at 11:08 AM.
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  23. #116
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I would support moves for the future (youth) more then seeing this team fumbling. It would be depressing to see this team go through struggles of handling losing more then the last 1/3 of last season.


    I know this team can move West, Hibbert, Scola and Watson for good pieces for the future.

    Obviously, this is a risk, getting the right trades and youth, but that's why these guys have great value. These guys are not much of a risk at all and West, Hibbert and Scola can greatly improve a team at very little risk and teams will be throwing all kinds of deals on the table. It's up to the FO to make the right deals.
    .

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Minus a healthy or semi healthy Rose? No, not 20 games better but 10-15 sure. A healthy or semi healthy Rose? For sure.
    Not to take what you said SO literal, but that team last year won 48 games. So that would AT LEAST put the Pacers in the mid 30's as far as wins are concerned.

    To think we would struggle to win 30 games is a bit of a stretch is all I'm getting at. I don't see why this team can't win 40ish games and compete the same way the Bulls did without Rose.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I think IMO people are missing the point of why we wouldn't tank. No we won't win a title, but that's doesn't mean you just tank. I think you can see a lot of people here don't think the Pacers will win more than 30 games, if we don't tank and play hard and play well and win say for example 43 games then we are proving to everyone Paul's supporting cast is good enough to win a title if he can come back 100%. That is IMO why we don't tank, let's try to win and prove to PG and people here are supporting cast is better than we thought.

  26. #119
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    I think IMO people are missing the point of why we wouldn't tank. No we won't win a title, but that's doesn't mean you just tank. I think you can see a lot of people here don't think the Pacers will win more than 30 games, if we don't tank and play hard and play well and win say for example 43 games then we are proving to everyone Paul's supporting cast is good enough to win a title if he can come back 100%. That is IMO why we don't tank, let's try to win and prove to PG and people here are supporting cast is better than we thought.
    We lost Lance Stephenson from last year's team a couple of weeks ago. Then we lost PG last week. Oh, and we lost Roy Hibbert after the ASG. I think some of you expecting us to be over .500 will be in for a shock.
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Agree.



    Disagree.

    As I've said before, all casual fans want is for there to be a good chance their team is going to win when they come to the games. If that happens - and all it really takes is an over 50% record at home, I think - they will CREATE a local "superstar" to be the guy they cheer for. We've seen it happen over and over, to the point even people here on PD get accused of just being fanboys for some player who "isn't really that good".

    If the truth of the NBA is that teams need to either be directly in the running for a championship or have a nationally anointed superstar to cheer for in order to survive, it would be a 16 team league.

    The Pacers have had a winning record at home every season for something like 24 straight years. It's the longest active streak in the NBA. Even in the putrid late 2000's, the team still managed to win the majority of its games at home. It was more likely than not that the fans would see those O'Brien teams win home games, yet the team had awful attendance. So getting fans in the seats goes much much much deeper than just giving your fans a "good chance" of seeing the team win.

    The fans in Central Indiana are great fans. We have historically had very good support for such a small market. Every fan base goes through its lulls. The Celtics fanbase and attendance was down before the Big 3 were formed. Look at all of the struggles in places like Detroit and Philly, which are leaps and bounds larger than Indy. For a small market, we have done very very well with the fans.

    I'm not a fan of tanking for multiple years because it's not good to ingrain your new young players with a repeated culture of losing, and often the tanking never pans out. Bird showed that you don't need to completely tank in order to build a good team. That being said, we are in a very unique situation right now. We will have a rough season this year that at best will end in a 7 or 8 seed, but next season we will hopefully get back one of the best players in the game. The most important thing right now is maximizing the team that PG returns to. Running West/Hibbert/Hill into the ground so that we can go 39-43 is not going to do anything to help PG. Either trade West for good young talent or keep him fresh so that he can help PG in 15-16. A top 10 pick is more likely to help PG than the 15th pick.

    No one is saying that you tell guys to throw games, but we need to give guys like Solo a ton of minutes as opposed to riding vets into the ground so we can possibly earn the right to get bulldozed by Cleveland. Play Cope and Allen a ton of minutes instead of draining West's gas tank. Something like the 8th pick in next year's draft could be very very very good when PG is in the prime of his career. That will mean a lot in the prime of his career, but OTOH would anyone really care years down the road that we were an 8 seed in 2015 that got drilled by Cleveland? Big picture. We're not talking about building an entire team through tanking. Instead, this is about getting just one lottery draft pick that has better odds of panning out than the 15th pick.

    The fans around here aren't stupid. They appreciate what has been built here over the last couple of seasons and will understand that a freak injury ruined our title chances next year. Most people will understand if we have a strategy that tries to maximize the talent of the team PG returns to in 15-16. No matter what, we're not going to have the attendance and excitement that we had last year. We have to accept that. But if you have a good team around PG when he comes back, everyone will immediately come back.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-04-2014 at 11:46 AM.

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  30. #121
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I'm not a big tanking proponent, but to do it during a year when your star is already out with injury seems to be the best possible timing.

    As to damage to the fan base, I think there's a difference to winning 30+ games with the prospect of getting healthy Paul George back the next year, versus the bad old days when we were winning 30+ games with only the prospect of Mike Dunleavy's and Troy Murphy's expiring contracts to cheer us.

    Which is not to say that losing games, whether intentional or not, would ever go well with the fan base (it won't). But doing it in this situation would minimize the damage, I think.

    Of course, one could say that the team shouldn't tank at all whatever the situation, but since the team has approximately zero options right now, it might not be the Pacers' choice to make.

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  32. #122
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    In my opinion, you don't make any moves that you wouldn't make if Paul was healthy. The one exception to this would be West considering his age, and possibly a desire by him to go to a championship contender this season (which I don't think he is that kind of guy to begin with though). From a game to game perspective you play to win, but you also put emphasis on getting Solo playing time and experimenting (especially on offense).

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  34. #123
    The Nite Owl LA_Confidential's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I haven't read the thread but.......

    I believe there is Zero percent chance that the Pacers will tank. There is no chance in hades that the players will mail it in. And secondly, if the front office intentionally blows it up without giving the squad a chance, they will have the wrath of the fan base to deal with.

    I fully expect this team to bust their asses to be a playoff team. Even as an 8 seed, they will have enough drive and pride to play for Paul. If this group goes out and vomits all over themselves, it won't be a tank. They will just have sucked all along and we would have never had a chance to win even with Paul.

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  36. #124
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I'll never advocate straight up tanking. But there's a world of difference when you lost your 2 best players in a months time and expectations.

    I think from the view of the Pacers/coaches/front office/etc, I think it would be a huge mistake to say this is a playoff team and do everything they can to try and make the playoffs. Now is the time to start looking long term outlook for the best of the franchise.

    There needs to be a talk with West and see if he'd prefer to be traded. Then there's other veterans like Scola. These guys don't have much time and it'd be wasted on this current team. Even with PG back next season, it'll like be another year before he's 100%. So that's 2 season where this team isn't likely to make a big impact.

    I think you have to start looking at moving players for younger guys on rookie contracts. Or trade for a high expiring like Amare coupled with a pick or another young player.

    As a fan, I understand that this isn't a winning team anymore, but I'll be damned pissed if the Pacers organizations talks about staying the course. That'd be complete BS.
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  38. #125
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I will support this team regardless. I, and many here, have supported this team through worse times than these.

    If the players give up, I do not want to see our jersey on them.

    If the management shakes the roster I won't get made. No healthy player is untouchable in my opinion. If you can get some assets for West, then do it if we are fluttering in effort and execution.

    The only way I get angry is if the team is an 8th seed and they decide to throw PG out there. Even if the doctors clear him.

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