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Thread: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

  1. #26
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    The only question here is...do you want a competitive team or do you want the Pacers to win a ring? I am sure we will be competitive by standing pat or by retooling a bit. So, we will be fine. But do you *really* want the Pacers to win a title.

    Now, everyone here will probably say they want the Pacers to win a ring. But take the emotion out of it and actually think about how that happens. Better yet, check out this chart. Everyone listed was one of their very best players at that time. Tell me what your odds are if your very best players are picked #10, #17 and #18:

    2014 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2013 NBA Miami Heat LeBron #1, Dwade #5, Bosh #4
    2012 NBA Miami Heat LeBron #1, Dwade #5, Bosh #4
    2011 NBA Dallas Mavericks Chandler #2, Kidd #2, Dirk #9
    2010 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Gasol #3, Odom #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2009 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Gasol #3, Odom #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2008 NBA Boston Celtics Garnett #5, Allen #5
    2007 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2006 NBA Miami Heat Shaq #1, DWade #5
    2005 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2004 NBA Detroit Pistons Billups #3, Sheed #4, Rip #7
    2003 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2002 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2001 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2000 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Rice #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    1999 NBA San Antonio Spurs Mr. Robinson #1, Duncan #1
    1998 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1997 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1996 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1995 NBA Houston Rockets Hakeem #1
    1994 NBA Houston Rockets Hakeem #1
    1993 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1992 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1991 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Cartwright #1, Pippen #5
    1990 NBA Detroit Pistons Zeke #2, Aguirre #1
    1989 NBA Detroit Pistons Zeke #2, Aguirre #1
    1988 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1987 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1986 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1985 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1984 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1983 NBA Philadelphia 76ers Moses #5
    1982 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1
    1981 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1980 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1

    Edit: Kobe is the big outlier, but he was drafted well before he had developed at 18 years of age. Obviously he would have been picked much higher if he'd stayed in school just one year.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-03-2014 at 09:45 PM.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I would do exactly the same as I did for the Colts. I would root for them to play well but ultimately lose enough to get into the lottery. Yes, I know, I am a "terrible" fan. However, I rooted against us so hard vs. Jacksonville in the last week of 2011. I didn't watch us lose so many games to draft Robert Griffin.
    Last edited by Steagles; 08-03-2014 at 09:42 PM.
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  5. #28

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I would probably advocate for trading west for something decent. I think he deserves to go to a team with chance to go deep in the playoffs. I would prefer the Pacers to develop what young players they have and hope to have a really good shot at a very high lottery pick while having a superstar not even in their prime yet waiting in the wings.

    I think that is the only way to turn this dumpster fire of a season into something positive for the future. If we got say Mudiay and finally had a legit big time PG seemingly for the first time since Mark Jackson I would happily sacrifice this season.

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  7. #29
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steagles View Post
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    I would do exactly the same as I did for the Colts. I would root for them to play well but ultimately lose enough to get into the lottery. Yes, I know, I am a "terrible" fan. However, I rooted against us so hard vs. Jacksonville in the last week of 2011. I didn't watch us lose so many games to draft Robert Griffin.
    That loss in Jacksonville was one of the best moments in Colts history.

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  9. #30
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Believe_in_blue View Post
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    I think tanking has more to do with the front office than the players. Everybody is playing to get paid. If guys are out there "chucking and dogging it", that's going to affect their ability to secure a future contract. No player is going to do that. The only way the Pacers tank is if they break up the core of G-Hill, West, and Hibbert. I would say trading any two of those three would put us in that category.
    Well a lot of guys think they're getting a good contract by "getting theirs" which is what'd I'd expect of a tanking team, and that's what I was getting at.

  10. #31
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I'm not buying the "season is lost"
    Give these guys a chance, see what they can do.

  11. #32

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    The only question here is...do you want a competitive team or do you want the Pacers to win a ring? I am sure we will be competitive by standing pat or by retooling a bit. So, we will be fine. But do you *really* want the Pacers to win a title.

    Now, everyone here will probably say they want the Pacers to win a ring. But take the emotion out of it and actually think about how that happens. Better yet, check out this chart. Everyone listed was one of their very best players at that time. Tell me what your odds are if your very best players are picked #10, #17 and #18:

    2014 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2013 NBA Miami Heat LeBron #1, Dwade #5, Bosh #4
    2012 NBA Miami Heat LeBron #1, Dwade #5, Bosh #4
    2011 NBA Dallas Mavericks Chandler #2, Kidd #2, Dirk #9
    2010 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Gasol #3, Odom #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2009 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Gasol #3, Odom #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2008 NBA Boston Celtics Garnett #5, Allen #5
    2007 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2006 NBA Miami Heat Shaq #1, DWade #5
    2005 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2004 NBA Detroit Pistons Billups #3, Sheed #4, Rip #7
    2003 NBA San Antonio Spurs Duncan #1
    2002 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2001 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    2000 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Shaq #1, Rice #4, Kobe #13 (18 years old)
    1999 NBA San Antonio Spurs Mr. Robinson #1, Duncan #1
    1998 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1997 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1996 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1995 NBA Houston Rockets Hakeem #1
    1994 NBA Houston Rockets Hakeem #1
    1993 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1992 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Pippen #5
    1991 NBA Chicago Bulls MJ #3, Cartwright #1, Pippen #5
    1990 NBA Detroit Pistons Zeke #2, Aguirre #1
    1989 NBA Detroit Pistons Zeke #2, Aguirre #1
    1988 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1987 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1986 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1985 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1, Worthy #3, Scott #4
    1984 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1983 NBA Philadelphia 76ers Moses #5
    1982 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1
    1981 NBA Boston Celtics Bird #6, McHale #3, Parish #8
    1980 NBA Los Angeles Lakers Magic & Kareem - #1

    Edit: Kobe is the big outlier, but he was drafted well before he had developed at 18 years of age. Obviously he would have been picked much higher if he'd stayed in school just one year.
    Yea the good players are usually drafted high, luckily PG fell to 10th. I don't take too much stock into where you were drafted.
    Last edited by BlueCollarColts; 08-03-2014 at 10:14 PM.

  12. #33

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Tell me what your odds are if your very best players are picked #10, #17 and #18:
    So, we shoulda kept Evan Turner? Isn't Kwame Brown a FA? Darko?
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I have trouble with the word tank. But I would be in favor of the pacers doing whatever they have to do to be the best they can be in 2016. If winning 28 games in 2015 in any way helps 2016 I am fine with that.

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  16. #35

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I don't feel the need to tank, in my opinion, I would say lets try to get over .500 with this team and see whether thats playoffs or not. Regardless we will likely end up with a pick somewhere in between 12-16. In the 12-16 range we have a good chance to get a good player that can fit in next to PG both in the short term and long term. You can find good players who can contribute in the 12-16 range. So we can add a draft pick to an already hopefully above .500 on its own core, Then we also would have the full MLE plus our BAE to add a player or split it up into different players. Thats over 7 million dollars which you can add a few decent pieces or one good piece, as well as the return of Paul George.

    I don't think the core needs to be remade, I just think we need to add a few more pieces which a draft pick and smart use of our MLE and BAE can accomplish.
    Last edited by BlueCollarColts; 08-03-2014 at 10:42 PM.

  17. #36
    Come Home Lance! BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    So, we shoulda kept Evan Turner? Isn't Kwame Brown a FA? Darko?
    That entirely misses the point. There will always be busts. But if you look at the teams that have won it all, they have without exception had a very high pick as one of their starters and without exception that starter was a key contributor. This basically means, there is no precedent in the history of the NBA (or at least the last 34 years) where a team has won it all with their best 2 or 3 players being picked at 10 and lower. In other words, good luck. You will need better luck than the Mavs and Pistons teams that were not considered dominant.

    Edit: I don't want the Pacers to tank, but as UB implied I would be fine with them retooling. Retooling means you move the older guys out at the appropriate time and prepare for Paul's return with the best team going forward.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-03-2014 at 10:22 PM.

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  19. #37
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I don't think of tanking as trying to lose. I think of it as lowering the importance of winning 'now' on the checklist and re-prioritizing a bit to hopefully grow, increase assets, etc to win more later. But you never tell the players to lose. You simply live with some players playing thru mistakes so they can learn and you can evaluate them.

    I don't think casual (or fairweather) fans know the difference (it'll all be losing to them) and hard core fans will understand exactly what is going on. "Suck for Luck" had traction because fans knew what was dangling at the end of the stick.
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  21. #38
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Hill, Hibbert, and West should have their minutes reduced. I'd save them all for 2016. This is probably the closest you might see the Pacers get to "tanking"

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  23. #39
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    The real question is should the FO look at re-tooling or re-building the team as currently constructed? David West has already been brought up, but what if Roy returns to good Roy next season? Should we try and unload him before the deadline when his value is up knowing his inconsistent history and lack of athleticism/scoring? If we can get good, young, athletic players whose game is still on the rise for these two to compliment PG, I think it is something that has to be at least considered.

    Of course a lot of it depends on PG's rehab and his prognosis for full recovery. Also, whether the Pacers are willing to change philosophies somewhat. It would be a risky thing to totally re-tool the starting unit, but after last season I would consider it for the right pieces.

  24. #40

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    I will say this, I would explore a David West for Reggie Jackson centered trade if we do decide to move out D-West. It would mean OKC would play a small front line but Perkins and West are all ready similar sized. I still prefer to keep West though.

  25. #41
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    For one, I don't think the players or coaches tank. Not on purpose anyway. Now, the FO might stack a bad mix of players in there and tank from their end.

    If Bird did a fire sale, I would support the team in the same way I have supported the CHI Cubs this last two seasons (Cubs ditched all of their older and more expensive players and loaded up on minor leaguers). I would be interested but not that involved. I wouldn't watch every game.

  26. #42

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    We also could have good or high quality role players like Solomon Hill or Damjan Rudez which would help our core a lot as well, so in my opinion, don't break it up yet, and stay to course, if the core proves they can't win this year, then we should start exploring trade options.

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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    We also could have good or high quality role players like Solomon Hill or Damjan Rudez which would help our core a lot as well, so in my opinion, don't break it up yet, and stay to course, if the core proves they can't win this year, then we should start exploring trade options.
    Our definition of "good" and "high quality" are so vastly disparate it's incredible. A 28 year old Croatian who has played zero NBA games ever is "good" and "high quality," now? Based on what? The fact that he wasn't even good or high quality in Euroleague play? Solo Hill may end up being someone, but the dude has what, 200 professional minutes played so far in his career, if he's lucky?

  28. #44

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    How do we know that Solomon Hill is a high quality role player? He's barely done anything. He should have plenty of opportunity to show his worth this year though, that's for sure. Vogel better play him a TON this season.
    I said we COULD have a high quality role player in Solo or Damjan, not that we know we do. Which is why we should wait and let them play before making any decisions regarding breaking up the core or tanking.

  29. #45
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    I said we COULD have a high quality role player in Solo or Damjan, not that we know we do. Which is why we should wait and let them play before making any decisions regarding breaking up the core or tanking.
    Yes, I misread your post and glossed over the could. My mistake. I deleted it.

  30. #46

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    Our definition of "good" and "high quality" are so vastly disparate it's incredible. A 28 year old Croatian who has played zero NBA games ever is "good" and "high quality," now? Based on what? The fact that he wasn't even good or high quality in Euroleague play? Solo Hill may end up being someone, but the dude has what, 200 professional minutes played so far in his career, if he's lucky?
    I never said Solo or Damjan were high quality role players, I said we COULD have high quality role players in them, we don't know, my point is to let the season play out a bit before making any decisions on tanking or breaking up the core.
    Last edited by BlueCollarColts; 08-03-2014 at 11:16 PM.

  31. #47

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yes, I misread your post and glossed over the could. My mistake. I deleted it.
    Its all good.

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  33. #48
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    If they traded away all of the core pieces I would take a year hiatus from the Pacers. If this was an old group of players I would understand, but except for West these guys are still in their prime. They can afford a down year, which might end up being a positive long term.

  34. #49
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    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    You're in for a lot more disappointment this season. A lot of people are. It's just not realistic to expect much of anything out of Damjan ever. There's a reason he's just finally made an NBA roster, and it's not because it's 15 years ago and no one is scouting Europe. Solo is basically on his rookie year, he may show some flashes, but you can't rely on a guy who's played in less than 30 games. You couldn't if he was a top 10 prospect, let alone a late first rounder. He may end up being a good role player, but that's 2-3 years away.

  35. #50

    Default Re: IF They Tanked - How Would You Support Them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dece View Post
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    You're in for a lot more disappointment this season. A lot of people are. It's just not realistic to expect much of anything out of Damjan ever. There's a reason he's just finally made an NBA roster, and it's not because it's 15 years ago and no one is scouting Europe. Solo is basically on his rookie year, he may show some flashes, but you can't rely on a guy who's played in less than 30 games. You couldn't if he was a top 10 prospect, let alone a late first rounder. He may end up being a good role player, but that's 2-3 years away.
    Rudez was just brought over because he has improved his range to become a dead eye shooter, and I think the Spurs proved how important shooting is right now. Am I saying I am expecting Rudez to be a high quality role player? No, not at all, but if he can come in and spread the defense, and knock down a couple of 3's he will have already made a positive impact and contributed something our team lacked last season. As for Solo, he needs a chance, Vogel has said he can be elite defensively, and if he can shoot the 3 at a good clip that is already a high quality role player, and his age is just a bonus. Do I expect these things to happen? No, but if they do we are in great shape, but i am certainly not just tossing them to the side and saying they are impossible, because what will be asked of these two players is certainly within their capability.

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