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Thread: Time to blow it up!

  1. #1

    Default Time to blow it up!

    First of all, I feel awful for Paul George, but I do think he'll be okay career-wise. He's young enough that he hasn't even entered his prime yet, so (pending his rehab) I feel comfortable in saying that he's still the cornerstone of this franchise. We will definitely want to try to get a 1A player just in case.

    With that said, it really sucks that this happens after we lost our 2nd best player, also not yet in his prime, for whatever reason.

    Whatever you think about Lance personally, anyone with common sense would assume the Pacers would struggle if Stuckey/Miles were the only replacements for him. Replacing a borderline All Star with two bench players and all that. The Pacers felt that way too, so hopes were resting on Paul George to step it up to an MVP level. He knew that if he didn't, the team wasn't going to get very far at all next season.

    Obviously that's all out the window now. The starting lineup outside of David West is going to be mediocre at their absolute best, and as Pacers fans we know all too well how frustrating watching such a team over an entire season can be. West and Hibbert aren't signed for much longer, and the rest of their tenure here (should they stay) would be with a mediocre-at-best team. The plus side is that Hibbert would get to be the feature guy he seems to think he should be on offense. The downside is, well, the team is going to be the only thing worse than awful: mediocre.

    To make things brief, Hibbert and West should not be viewed as part of this team's future. And with the core gone (PG and Lance) for at least a season, the present is not worth keeping those guys around when future assets could be obtained for them. It's time to have a fire sale and rebuild around PG. Give major minutes to young/unproven guys, get some draft picks and get back on track for 2 years from now (or maybe even next season).

    George Hill, David West, Roy Hibbert, Luis Scola, Mahinmi should all be on the market. Take back the best combination of youth, potential and draft picks. In the meantime play Solo Hill, Rudez, LaVoy Allen and whoever we get back in trades. In all honesty, we should net some value for those guys, as a David West could turn a pretender into a contender overnight (I'm looking at you, Phoenix).

    I know some people want to be stubborn and avoid the lottery, but you have to rip the bandaid or we'll never get out of the East. And quite honestly, watching young players develop appeals to me more than watching Vogel's halfcourt offense without its only star player for 82 games.


    It sucks, but I really hope the front office does the right thing and holds an auction. No point in waiting for West to be 35 and on an expiring contract and hope that the stars align for us health and competition-wise.

    Let's appreciate the run this unit had and get a head start on finding the future of the franchise (along with PG).
    Last edited by 3rdStrike; 08-02-2014 at 01:08 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Just because PG is injured doesn't mean we need to go all Philadelphia and Milwaukee out there. We still have some young guys and assets. Obviously next season will be a transitional year, but "blowing it up" is quite an overreaction.

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  5. #3

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Just because PG is injured doesn't mean we need to go all Philadelphia and Milwaukee out there. We still have some young guys and assets. Obviously next season will be a transitional year, but "blowing it up" is quite an overreaction.
    Young guys and assets for? Transitional/transitoning towards? If you mean young guys and assets to develop, that is agreeing with what I said. We have a few, we need to play them and we need to acquire (and develop) more. If you mean transitioning towards when PG returns at full health, that is agreeing with what I said. We need to start the transition soon.

    It doesn't seem that you agree though. I clearly explained my position, what do you mean with yours?

    Edit: to expand,

    It's much, much wiser to tank productively, especially when you consider the age and contract status of some of our veterans. Yeah the Pacers made the mediocrity treadmill work before, but they got extremely lucky that Paul George fell into their laps and that he panned out (and Lance, and to a lesser extent Hibbert before PG). I can't think of a reason to keep the veterans around unless no teams want them. Nobody is saying to trade these guys for scraps and 2nd round picks. Maybe they can get a Bledsoe, Motiejunas, take a flyer on an Austin Rivers or Matthew Dellavedova and field a team that may be competitive but at least is built with the future (and not the nonexistent present) in mind. What do we have to lose? The team is not sniffing even a conference championship within the remaining time frame of David West's contract.
    Last edited by 3rdStrike; 08-02-2014 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    I agree with what you are getting at, to a point. By saying, "time to blow it up", you're leaving the feeling that the Pacers need to do a fire sale and sit on a couple of lotteries. Fortunes can change quickly in the NBA, and if the Pacers get PG back at full strength, there is absolutely no "blowing it up", while he is on the team. I would support the ideas of trading Hibbert and Hill. I think the best ideas are to acquire draft picks, young players, but not lose the culture. That's why I would hang on to West. I think David West right now is to valuable to the chemistry of the team as a leader than what his market value is.

    I'm a hopelessly optimistic fan, so I won't concede that this is the end of the franchise as a contender. Maybe it is, temporarily, but I hold faith that the team can rebound quickly.

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  9. #5

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by scar View Post
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    I agree with what you are getting at, to a point. By saying, "time to blow it up", you're leaving the feeling that the Pacers need to do a fire sale and sit on a couple of lotteries. Fortunes can change quickly in the NBA, and if the Pacers get PG back at full strength, there is absolutely no "blowing it up", while he is on the team. I would support the ideas of trading Hibbert and Hill. I think the best ideas are to acquire draft picks, young players, but not lose the culture. That's why I would hang on to West. I think David West right now is to valuable to the chemistry of the team as a leader than what his market value is.

    I'm a hopelessly optimistic fan, so I won't concede that this is the end of the franchise as a contender. Maybe it is, temporarily, but I hold faith that the team can rebound quickly.
    There may be some misunderstanding of what blowing it up means. Trading Hibbert and Hill is blowing it up. Trading any one or two of the 3 big contracts would give us some room to add players who would be around when PG returns. How many want to see West, Hibbert, or Hill get another pacer contract? I would if at bargain prices.

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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    It sucks, but I really hope the front office does the right thing and holds an auction. No point in waiting for West to be 35 and on an expiring contract and hope that the stars align for us health and competition-wise.
    Just wondering, how and who makes that the right thing?
    I'm not perfect and neither are you.

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  11. #7

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Since I've already posted a fire sale trade on the Trade page it should come as no surprise I say Blow it Up. With Paul George playing for us I was willing and hopefull to watch the Pacers without Lance. I think with Miles and Stuckey we could compete for the Central Division. Without PG we could make the Playoffs but not the second round. So going into 2015-16 with Paul back could we contend with Chicago and Cleveland?, Maybe, but I doubt it. For me Blowing it up comes down to keepin Hill, West and Hibbert. All three have major ?'s going into 15-16 Hibbert and Hill have the same issue to me and it boils down to their mental make-up. As an outsider it certainly appears to me they checked out last year instead of digging deep and kicking butt. West is an asset now but i just don't know in a couple years, I tend to belive his game defies aging to an extent. Since I'm not an advocate for Hill and Hbbert, I'm also in favor getting value for West now. I think this also allows us to reshape the team. I'm not a fan of "Smashmouth Basket". I love Great Defense, but to watch more forced pass down low just for the sake getting closer to the bucket is just painful. Let's build a team that can run with PG and Play both ends. We've got a full year to find better fits for PG and when he comes back let him be the leader and have the support from a team built for him. Right now the team is built around West and Hibbert on the offensive end. I would like not to fear the more athletic teams like: Atlanta, Pheonix, San Antonio. I say Blow it up!

    BTW I don't see it happening, nor will I cry when i doesn't

  12. #8
    Member scar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by okroe3 View Post
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    Since I've already posted a fire sale trade on the Trade page it should come as no surprise I say Blow it Up. With Paul George playing for us I was willing and hopefull to watch the Pacers without Lance. I think with Miles and Stuckey we could compete for the Central Division. Without PG we could make the Playoffs but not the second round. So going into 2015-16 with Paul back could we contend with Chicago and Cleveland?, Maybe, but I doubt it. For me Blowing it up comes down to keepin Hill, West and Hibbert. All three have major ?'s going into 15-16 Hibbert and Hill have the same issue to me and it boils down to their mental make-up. As an outsider it certainly appears to me they checked out last year instead of digging deep and kicking butt. West is an asset now but i just don't know in a couple years, I tend to belive his game defies aging to an extent. Since I'm not an advocate for Hill and Hbbert, I'm also in favor getting value for West now. I think this also allows us to reshape the team. I'm not a fan of "Smashmouth Basket". I love Great Defense, but to watch more forced pass down low just for the sake getting closer to the bucket is just painful. Let's build a team that can run with PG and Play both ends. We've got a full year to find better fits for PG and when he comes back let him be the leader and have the support from a team built for him. Right now the team is built around West and Hibbert on the offensive end. I would like not to fear the more athletic teams like: Atlanta, Pheonix, San Antonio. I say Blow it up!

    BTW I don't see it happening, nor will I cry when i doesn't
    It would be my desire to see what this team does in the first half of the season before making any decisions. But if I was making the decisions, my priority would be to build Hibbert up to be the go-to scorer, the big fella, hype him as a renewed, refocused, driven locker room leader who has turned his career around. I'd also make sure he was pampered, complemented, backed 100% by the team and make him feel like the face of the franchise... and then I would trade him to some sucker who bought all of it. I know Hibbert still has marginal value. I mean, he's a defensive anchor, much larger than most ever other center in the NBA, who has never had a serious injury, which that alone is an accomplishment for bigs in this league. (see Philadelphia 76ers for proof) I think with the right degree of manipulation, someone, anyone, will give us a draft pick and maybe a halfway decent compensation piece. Who knows, maybe we'll get TWO compensation pieces.

    My issue with George Hill is this; he's the 2nd best point guard on this team, and his best position is as a combo guard backing up other players. As a starter, I'd rather him play 2 than 1. And as far as trade value, I think the best we could get for Hill is a project player mixed with low picks. I don't think anyone values him as high as his contract.

    And I love David West, and don't want to think about trading him. Trade Scola to a contender looking for a backup big that has a pick to give. I don't care if it's in the 35-50 range. But if David is traded, I would hope adequate compensation not based around his age would be the result. I couldn't even tell you what I think others value him at.

  13. #9

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Just because PG is injured doesn't mean we need to go all Philadelphia and Milwaukee out there. We still have some young guys and assets. Obviously next season will be a transitional year, but "blowing it up" is quite an overreaction.
    I agree but landing a Bledsoe, Rondo, or Dragic along with one of the Morris twins, would be good pieces to have in place when Paul DOES return. We can just pick up where we left off, contending for the East crown. Considering the financial situation we will be in next Summer, we might be able to move West, Roy, and Hill considering they'd all be in final year correct? We could have enough cap space to sign Dragic and one or both Morris twins away from Phoenix. Especially if Phoenix ties up a lot of cash in Bledsoe's new deal.

  14. #10

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by scar View Post
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    I agree with what you are getting at, to a point. By saying, "time to blow it up", you're leaving the feeling that the Pacers need to do a fire sale and sit on a couple of lotteries. Fortunes can change quickly in the NBA, and if the Pacers get PG back at full strength, there is absolutely no "blowing it up", while he is on the team. I would support the ideas of trading Hibbert and Hill. I think the best ideas are to acquire draft picks, young players, but not lose the culture. That's why I would hang on to West. I think David West right now is to valuable to the chemistry of the team as a leader than what his market value is.

    I'm a hopelessly optimistic fan, so I won't concede that this is the end of the franchise as a contender. Maybe it is, temporarily, but I hold faith that the team can rebound quickly.
    Excellent point, the phrase "blow it up" was in reference to the core as we envisioned it a year ago, which obviously cannot happen any longer (if for no other reason than Lance's departure).

    In my original post I said West, Hill, Hibbert, Mahinmi and Scola should be on the market, not necessarily that all 3 should be traded. I do think it would be ideal to keep at least one of West/Hibbert/Hill. My preference is to keep Hill, as I think he'll have the most to offer our team because he's able to be versatile (point guard, shooting guard, 6th man). He'd also likely have the least value on the open market.

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    Member WhoLovesYaBaby?'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by sportfireman View Post
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    Just wondering, how and who makes that the right thing?
    The all knowing message boards that's who!

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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!



    Like dominoes!
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  17. #13
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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    I'm not convinced that tanking is a viable way to rapidly improve the team for 2015-16 season. It's certainly an option but wouldn't it be better to have George Hill, David West, and Roy Hibbert increase their productivity and value? Right now, who are you really going to get in return for them?

    Let's see how it plays out. If they are really struggling through the first half of the season or just barely treading water, they can always cut bait at that time. There's a slim chance that in the East, they could still be good enough to be a 7 or 6 seed while developing Solomon Hill and Damjan Rudez. The only move I think they should make is to cut Scola and premote Copeland as the back up PF.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Good point naptown. Roy, DWest, and GHill should all have a pretty big bump in numbers this season which should enhance trade value.

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  21. #15

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Let's appreciate the run this unit had and get a head start on finding the future of the franchise (along with PG).
    "Blowing it up" to me means a total roster re-build, a process that would take 4-6 years to complete. You'd be telling Paul George "screw you, when you come back you're going to have to lead a sorry bunch of wannabes in hopes that by the time your contract is up they may amount to something. Welcome to the Philly Pacers"
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  23. #16

    Default Re: Time to blow it up!

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I'm not convinced that tanking is a viable way to rapidly improve the team for 2015-16 season. It's certainly an option but wouldn't it be better to have George Hill, David West, and Roy Hibbert increase their productivity and value? Right now, who are you really going to get in return for them?

    Let's see how it plays out. If they are really struggling through the first half of the season or just barely treading water, they can always cut bait at that time. There's a slim chance that in the East, they could still be good enough to be a 7 or 6 seed while developing Solomon Hill and Damjan Rudez. The only move I think they should make is to cut Scola and premote Copeland as the back up PF.


    I think when next season is over we will get a top 15 pick. Top 18 at the highest. So if we can get Dragic or Rondo next Summer or even Reggie Jackson? Pair that with PG and that top 20 or higher pick, we should be fine to contend again.

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